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Anabol Dibencoplex vs Source Natural Adb12

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dbkita, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dbkita,

    That is the easy question. All I have to do is put on reading glasses to see the answer. In the capsule are lots of tiny pieces of ground crystal. They dissolve instantly with warm moisture and sit next to tissue in a high concentration making for easy direct diffusion. They used to question if a molecule as large as B12 could be absorbed that way. However, human trials answered that one. At one point we had appeared to have perhaps some correlation between visible crystal pieces and absorption. The amount absorbed is proportionate to time in contact with tissue and minimization of saliva flow through the stuff.
    Little Bluestem and Xara like this.
  2. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    It's usually more a question of permeability and lipophilicity assuming there are no active transport mechanisms across the membrane. A lot of time things which are designed to be absorbed in the gut have a high solubility for distribution but not too high they can't get past the gut membrane.

    High solubility means usually more polar groups on the molecule and a drop in something called C log P (i.e. the octanol water partition function). Conversely greasy things have high C log P. Usually something "greasy" will be well absorbed in the gut but poorly distributed so it is not well suited fo oral administration, but would fare better through direct absorption across the oral mucosa or skin, etc.

    What I forgot is B12 is pretty poorly absorbed in the gut and usually needs help like with Intrinsic factor. So provided there are not impediments in the formulation (something Freddd just pointed out is ok by looking at with his glasses on), then there is a likelihood it would be reasonably absorbed since it is probably pretty lipophilic.

    On the other hand, many of the medications designed to be taken via the oral route would be terrible to try to take sublingually and strongly inadvisable (and potentially disastrous).
    Little Bluestem and Xara like this.
  3. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    It seems like it would be more likely from the 400 mcg of methylfolate in that b complex rather than the 300 mcg oral mb12 + IF.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Lotus,

    It's hard to tell. The person in question had tried all sorts of things and combinations. It's possible that the timing was critical as methylfolate before absorbing b12 results in clearly longer serum halflife. It's things like this that have to be allowed for in hypotheis but can't drive the hypotheis as having IF for oral consumption. The person previously did not have any noticable effect with sublingual MeCbl and separate l-methylfolate, timing unknown. With the IF contained with the b12 it removes a specific keyhole that strongly limits absorbtion. Without a few more people with similar results there is no pattern, so who knows. It does give a person who isn't getting results one more possibility. IF insufficiency is considered rare, perhaps 1% of population or less. That is the major reason given against all the protocols using b12 in any form, that "REAL B12 DEFICIENCY" (IF insufficiency) is rare and no b12 should have any results except for those people with real b12 deficiency.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dbkita,

    You know, I had my doubts too. I didn't rush to test it. I finiished out my trial of Source Naturals and did my A-B with Country Life and then an A-B with Anabol to Source Naturals. WOW. This one was so clearly superior to both other brands that I'm not going to ignore it. Non IF gut diffusuion absorbtion is about 1% of large amounts. Remember, that is a very dilute form, a low gradiant diffusion. It took 2 liters of raw pureed liver to have enough passive absorbtion to cure PA. Ounces of liver extract concentrate worked ever so much better. The dessicated liver I tried worked too, just not quite enough at the dosage I tried.

    I was dubious of sublingual usage of an oral fornulation. When highly positive reports came in I had to try it.
  6. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Thanks for explaining, dbkita. Much appreciated.
    Do you think mixing the contents of an AN capsule with a drop of oil (and then rubbbing it in the gum) could enhance its absorption via the oral mucosa?
  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I think it would block absorbtion by keeping water carried b12 from the tissue.
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I would not mess with it. Sounds like it absorbs just fine.

    Btw how long are people keeping it along the lower gumline? Makes timing with eating and other pills a bit complicated, no?
  9. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Okay, I'll keep doing it the way I did, no messing with oil. Thanks Freddd, thanks dbkita.

    I take it after breakfast and after having had my morning supps, it stays along the gumline for 2 or 3 hours. Most of the time most of it is gone when I get hungry again, the last pieces I usually rub them in with my finger.
  10. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Xara, I've just returned to this thread, read that your diet is already gluten and dairy-free, except small amount of yogurt. There's another ingredient Freddd includes in his "Deadlock Quartet", L-carnitine fumarate. (In addition to MeCbl, AdoCbl, and L-methylfolate). As I posted elsewhere, I initially misunderstood the protocol (left/right, up/down...). Initially I tried Acetyl L Carnitine, which I already had on hand. No results, negative on self-testing. I then ordered carnitine bitartrate, with the same negative results. When I finally got LCF, there was, in terms already used here, a real "brightening", a feeling of energy w/o any sense of over-activity or excitotoxicity. I can't account for any other differences, but once I realized I'd been over-methylating, leading to an on-going rash, I dropped the mthf dose and added in a third LCF capsule. This has been fine, no return to rash or other symptoms, and I'll just keep my dosages stable for awhile to see how it goes.
  11. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    I envy you for your 'brightening'. :)
    LCF, I have been taking Dr's Best LCF, 855 mg, but as far as I know it did not do anything. After having read some other postings I wondered if I should increase the dose or change the brand,
    Your posting, a third capsule, has convinced me there's still room for improvement with Dr's Best. I'll increase my dose next week. Thank you for mentioning this, ahmo, thank you very much.

    After having symptoms which could indicate a shortage of methylfolate and kalium, I increased my dose of methylfolate, mB12 and kalium recently, I did okay for a while, increased them again, but then I got symptoms that seemed to indicate I was having shortages of some kind .
    One of the symptoms was: the heart skipping a beat, then coming back with a bang accompanied with a nasty I-want to-get-away feeling, all that was so strong it woke me up several times during the night. Others: acne, cheilitis, cold to the bone, muscle spasms, fasciculations, nauseous, tight and painfull muscles, extremely fatigued and extreme muscle weakness. The next day after that horrible experience with my heart during the night I decided to give my body a break and returned to the regime of a fortnight ago.
    I also introduced Cordyceps Cs-4 (brand Mushroom science).
    Next day I was really sleepy (which I was not a fortnight ago) but yesterday and today I'm doing okay, i.e normal heart, 'normally' fatigued and just as weak as before, some other usual things but fasciculations gone, muscle spasms less frequent.
    Coming Tuesday I had planned to introduce Ashwagandha (Jarrow Formulas).

    So this week I planned to be easy on methylation and focus on herbs.
    Next week I'll refocus on methylation, starting with upping my LCF dose. Hopefully following that footstep, ahmo, will mean following that 'brightening' outcome. :)
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Xara,

    One of the things That comes up for heart arrythmias for me is getting b-complex twice a day, and it wasn't folate of b12 but some ogher factor(s). Also, consider how much potaqssium for instance is taken and how often. 2400mg in 6 doses can be more effective than 3000mg in 2-3 doses. Same goes with l-methyfolate. My own experience recently was that taking it with pootassium or vit C can decrease absorbtion. I find folate 30 minutes beofre a meal or before potassium can make all the difference, Think about timing issues. Those can be a problem of their own.
  13. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I can confirm that moving the folate away from potassium (at least citrate or gluconate forms) seems to improve things. I still take the methylfolate with food but now move the potassium supplements 30-60 minutes later. Thanks for the tip Freddd.
  14. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    I'll look into my dose of B's, Freddd, good idea. I have been careful with those, maybe to careful. P5p and niacinamide scared me the most, p5p because of possible damage to the nerves, and niacinamide because I have read somewhere over here that niacin may be causing SAMe to be quickly converted back to homocysteine. But perhaps that's not true for niacinamide...
    Before and after my break I was/am taking: B1 1 x 100 mg, R5P 1 x 36.5 mg, B2 1x 50 mg, Pantethine 2x 300 mg, Niacinamide 1x 62.5 mg, P5P 33.8 mg. (I'm taking them separately, so they're not part of a B-complex).

    Potassium, I was taking 2700 mg in 5 doses, before my break. The problem with increasing that dose is I don't have any meals/snack times left to accompany the sixth dose. :) I am already having problems with the 5th meal, I take that one just because the potassium is painful to my stomach when taken without any food. But frankly I am stuffed. :)

    Timing important, yes. I take my methylfolate an hour before each meal, 4 times a day.

    Thanks for your help, Freddd. Much appreciated. I'll up my B's, and any suggestions from you or anyone else regarding the doses would be great.

    I was a bit down, did not know what to do after having been confronted again with symptoms indicating deficiencies, but first that suggestion of ahmo, then yours, now I have some clear paths that I could try: upping the LCF, upping some/all B's. It'll keep my busy for a while. Having hope, seeing a possible way out, is sooo important. Now I'm smiling again. :)
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Xara,

    On the Bs in general, they are water soluble with a short serum halflife. It often isn't a "how much" but rather how often. 20mg of Bx twice a day can be more effective than 200mg of Bx once a day. Also, don't forget choline, inositol, PABA and various things. Often the effectiveness of some of these things is more influenced by the lowest amount in the body instead of peak amount.
  16. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Thanks! I had not thought about spreading the Bs, I'll do that. Choline, I was working on that one, currently taking 2 x 350 mg but was aiming higher. PABA and inositol, I considered them not as essential as the other ones. But I'll check them out again.
  17. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    I've had Niacinamide recommended to me but before I start it I'm trying to understand why an under-methylator such as myself would want extra niacinamide, as it "mops" up methyl and lowers SAMe via conversion. I'm trying to add methyl donors and increase SAMe..
  18. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Hi xjhuez,
    I am taking 1x 200 mg of SAMe at the moment, 2 x 500 mg of TMG, 3 x 350 mg of Choline, 2 x 8 mg of mB12 - those are the methyl donors, right? Or did I leave one out...
    About the niacinamide: I am taking 2 x 125 mg of Niacinamide nowadays. I had my doubts, yes, but this posting of dbkita convinced me to take more:
  19. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Ok, so if I were to add Niacinamide I'd be wise to balance it out with an additional methyl donor. Thanks.
  20. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    How much methylfolate are you on now Xara? I would also add the balance of p5p and b2 / r5p is pretty critical as well. For example if I were to dump in 100 mg of p5p and 100 mg of r5p (which I did at one point) that will effectively ramp methylation quite a bit. Note I am not recommending that necessarily just using an example. Personally I no longer take levels close to that but those cofactors do go hand in hand with the methyl donors. Also what type of choline do you take? I am no a big fan personally of the bitartrates but I am curious.

    How are you doing btw? Any improvments?

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