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Anabol Dibencoplex vs Source Natural Adb12

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dbkita, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Source Naturals has seemed pretty good to me. And I still don't understand the using as sublingual something that is designed as oral (i.e the anabol dibencoplex).
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I think I might try taking a low dose of all 3 B12s. If that works then I'll just switch over to mb12 and adb12 once I run out of hb12. I was looking at my enzymatic mb12 it seems that I'll be able to cut it up pretty small. I think 250 mcg would be too much for me, but it's big enough that I can cut it smaller than just 1/4.
  3. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    This isn't a really a post about the comparison of Anabol to SN...but sort of. Sorry this might be long.

    When I first started taking b12 I was having problems getting my supplements across the border. I don't know why, but it was a crap shoot if they made it. So I had some (at that time) Jarrow mb12 and SN adb12 sent to a friend in Houston. She then sent them to me in Ontario, Canada. This was during the very hottest days of our very hot summer last year. I don't know exactly how long that stuff spent in the heat, but it was quite awhile. She sent milk duds in the package and the caramel had even melted. It takes a good amount of heat to melt that.

    I was worried the heat may have degraded my adb12 so I was reluctant to use it. I finally found a Canadian supplier and used the bottle I got from them. I ran out of that one a couple of weeks ago. I started using the SN I'd gotten in the summer. I use about 2.5mg a day with 4mg of ENZY a day. I use them together.

    After two weeks I was in pain! The burning in my feet was horrible. Before I ever started on b12 I didn't have burning. I had planters fasciitis and inflammation on the balls of my feet, but never burning. I started playing around with my zinc levels hoping to stop it. I'd cut my zinc by half, I'd go back to full dose, but nothing was helping. Finally the burning kept me up half the night and I'd had enough.

    I had the Anabol sitting here for about a week. I'd just been reluctant to use. After that horrible night of burning I decided I had nothing to loose. Good heavens. I took maybe 1/6 of the capsule. I'd forgotten about Freddd's spoon trick, so, like a coke addict, I had the powder on fingers and rubbed it on my gum. I probably swallowed most, if not all, of that 1/6, instead of letting it sit on the gum. Well... I got that brightening again. I'm like Freddd, everything literally gets brighter. I also didn't feel like I needed to crawl into a cocoon and sleep in the afternoon. I had my energy back. The burning mostly stopped a couple of hours after I took the Anabol. I also realized I needed some potassium again. I hadn't noticed that my need for potassium had completely stopped!

    I've read that heat and/or light can degrade adb12 to hb12. If that's what happened to mine, then I will never take hb12. It stopped things for me and may have even reversed some healing. As I say I never had burning before. That was completely new and for those of you who have lived with it for long stretches I don't know how you stayed sane. My feet are still sore. I lowered my zinc and the inflammation on the tops of my feet has subsided, but the planters pain seems to be back. Not so much in my heal, but in the arch. Now I gotta figure out how to fix that.

    I can't really compare Anabol to Source Naturals as my SN was definitely degraded, through no fault of the company, I might add! Trying to remember back to before the bad SN it seems the Anabol is giving me more energy than I had before. I'll see how it does for my muscle growth as that's where I noticed adb12 working the most for me.
  4. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Thanks for the story Phred. Let me know how the Anabol turns out. I think the need for potassium is definitely a sign of methylation (provided it is in bounds).

    It is fascinating what you say about the feet. For me low potassium means leg, calf and arch pain. BUT symptoms like inflammation of the balls of feet and plantar fasciitis are not potassium related to me but probably low methylation (i.e. when Jarrows went downhill).

    So btw what is this spoon trick you mention?
  5. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    You get arch pain from low potassium? That's interesting. The arch pain is something kinda new. I've had it in the past, but it's flaring up again now. My calves definitely get sore with low potassium. Well... actually it's more my right calf. In fact most of my issues are on my right side. My tinnitus is in my right ear, my right eye is weaker than my left, my balance is off on my right side, my carpal tunnel is on my right. Hmmmm.

    When I have low potassium I'll get muscle spasms. You can actually see the muscle "ripple." It'll only happen once, maybe twice, in the one spot so I don't think it's true fasciculation. It happens on different parts of my body too. That's when I know I really need to get some potassium into me. I try to get it more from my diet because it I supplement too much I get reflux, an issue I know you are all too aware of.

    The spoon trick was mentioned at the beginning of the "Gorilla" thread. This is what Freddd said:


  6. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Heh I think I would opt for the spoon over the finger tips :)

    On a serious note for me the true rippling muscles spasms are when the potassium is really low. I would suggest if you have a right sided tendency you have some structural weaknesses on that side (craniosacral or otherwise) and those muscles are under tension a lot and then low potassium exacerbates their condition. The balance issue and right eye weakness are dead giveaways of something going on cranially especially given the asymmetry.
  7. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    Ok, I'm not going to lie tell, I had to look up craniosacral. Is this the type of thing you meant?

    It's a touch therapy. I could see it helping with pain associated with the spine and nerves, but the rest of it I have trouble accepting. I just realized the whole right side thingy, recently. I was thinking it might be an inner ear problem. Although, even when I had ITP (Idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura) the three hour nose bleeds would be from the right nostril. So who knows. Maybe you're onto something.

    As for some of the inflammation on my feet, it maybe from corn. I'm still in some denial that I have to give that up. It was my birthday on Friday so my family got me a cake. It was gluten/dairy/soy free, but there was cornstarch in the icing. I get severe inflammation (particularly with my gums) from gluten and dairy. I wouldn't be surprised if the cornstarch is doing the same thing. Or there may have even be slight cross-contamination with gluten or dairy for the cake. My gums are definitely not happy right now. This could last for a few more days yet.
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    If your cranial / neck / or sacral joints are out of alignment you will get some odd asymmetrical pain patterns and neurological issues (yes you have joints in your skull). Read up if you want on on cranial nerves especially nerves 5, 7-12.

    Almost all inner ear problems if not an infection involve inflammation of cranial nerves 7 and/ or 8. Trust me I know. I had terrible pulsatile tinnitus for years due to cranial nerve number 7 due to a bad TMJ / bite. Also read about some of the foramen especially the jugular foramen. They are the outlets for the cranial nerves. Compression of those foramen will impact the cranial nerve and have effects throughout the body.

    As far as the corn goes it was hard for me to give up by I did. I have been gluten, dairy, soy, and corn free for almost 3 years now. The exception is bits of corn in the Source Naturals Adb12 and one of the sublingual P5p I take. Ironically when I was in serious trouble in 2009, I let some quack inject corn dextrose into my sternoclavicular and costosternal joints as per prolotherapy (at the time I was willing to try anything, this was pre-glucocorticoid rescue). The pain and inflammation got so bad by the third and fourth treatment I literally though I was going to die. Not good memories. So yeah if I were you I would ditch the corn. It certainly was useful to me. Not as key as gluten but still a very good decision.
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  9. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Hi ahmo!

    Thanks for the suggestions, really nice of you.
    I had to look up the GAPS diet, did not know what it was, always nice to learn something new that could be useful.
    (Un)fortunatelly a parasite was detected in my abdomen last fall. I knew this bug feasted on starch and sugar, carbohydrates. So in order to make the treatment a success at the same time I tried to starve the beasts by eliminating all gluten, all beans, most fruit, most dairy products (except four spoons of yoghurt every three/four days), all pasta and potatoes, and all the stuff that’s not home made. First time I took the prescribed medication, the parasite survived, but the second time it was dead and gone. So luckily I had been on a gluten free and almost dairy free diet for months before I started with my methylation supplements in December.

    The first time I tried a bit of a sauce that contained wheat again, my belly hurt. I’ve read that one may become sensitive to gluten when not taking it for a while, and I’ve read that people with C667T sooner or later may have a gluten allergy. Since I did not care to leave the gluten out I continued eating gluten free.

    And as for the what and how I do in the toilet, I have never done better in my entire life. :) Maybe I already had a gluten allergy, I mean even before that parasite was discovered.
    Apart from gluten free I don’t drink alcohol, coffee, lemonades, sodas - only green/herbal tea and water. During the day I take home made green smoothies and at dinner meat or fish with vegetables (still no potatoes/pasta). In the evening two small hands of nuts.
    I don’t have any cravings for cookies or chocolate anymore, like I used to have. So I am quite happy with how things go as far as eating and drinking is concerned.

    Can I get rid of symptoms by improving my diet? I had not think of that before, ever. Stupid, that I never raised that question in the past when you come to think of it. But ever since my nasty experience with that parasite I do believe a healthy gut is essential, the foundation where every treatment has to build on.
    Are there still things in my present diet that would be wise to leave out? From what I have seen from the GAPS diet it’s not an easy thing to do. The methylation, and the decisions made about the what, the how and the when, are taking a lot of my attention, so I won’t investigate the GAPS diet any further for now. I’ve made a note of it though. Your suggestion will not be forgotten.

    I understand the intent of your words; I mean, eliminating gluten and dairy would have been rather easy to do, and can be a real difference seeing your spectacular experiences, but in that area there’s not much left for me to tackle I think. Well, my spoons of yoghurt, but sometimes a week passes by without touching it and I do not notice any difference. Hmm, perhaps I should expand that to several weeks… it would not be hard for me to do, I would not mind.

    BTW the intrusive thoughts are gone, they seemed to be part of that hyper-something-state I was in when crashing, and I don’t have them normally, thank God.

    Ahmo, thanks again for mentioning the elimination of gluten/dairy, the GAPS diet and your wonderful experience with it. Much appreciated.

    Best wishes.
  10. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    Hi dbkita,

    I was going to spend last night relearning the Krebs cycle, but you derailed me with this. Thanks. ;)

    I had what I thought must be a TMJ problem several years ago. I asked my dentist about it, but he didn't seem too concerned about it. 10 years later I chalked that and many other symptoms up to my b12 deficiency, but maybe it's something along these lines.

    Nerve IX caught my attention. I was tested for Celiac because of reflux and trouble swallowing. I wondered if it was eosinophilic esophagitis, but my gastro doc tested for it and I was negative.

    I'm assuming you had therapy. I found a place in the next city that offers this. They have 15, 30 and 60 minute sessions. How long were your sessions and how long did you go. Universal health care only goes so far. I have to pay for this out of my pocket. It gets pricey quickly.

    Back on topic of this thread; Anabol kicks Source Naturals' ass!!! Now that I have all that degraded SN out of me I'm noticing the difference. I'm only taking about 1/6 of the capsule, but today I woke up with severe hypokalemia. I have muscles rippling all over and it feels like someone is driving a stake through my chest. I'm going to hold off on the Anabol for today, until I get my potassium under control. Hopefully my gut can handle the supplements because diet is not going to fix this fast enough.
  11. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Honestly it depends on the practitioner. I find a well trained osteopath is way better at this then chiropractors or therapists. Also a good osteopath can evaluate your bite and TMJ. I would initially do a 60 minute session with an osteo to have them evaluate you then go from there. If you have a TMJ issue (tell them about the swallowing and ear issues, etc.) then they might be able to refer you to a good TMJ dentist. Good luck.

    So on the other note, when you say Anabol kicks SN's *bleep* what do you mean? You mention a lot of negative symptoms? Was there anything beneficial? Did you have more vigor or energy? Did you ingest the anabol or use it along the gumline? Reason I ask is I don't think you can be absorbing much through the gut.
  12. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    Sorry about that. I didn't mean to confuse with only posting the negative aspects. They were negative for me because I wasn't prepared for them. It's been awhile since I've had "start up" and I'd forgotten how intense it is. I don't necessarily consider start up negative. Yes I was wide awake until 3am, but I know I only have to deal with that for a finite time and it'll level out. I'll be able to sleep just fine once my body adjusts. I DON'T sleep at all if I don't take b12.

    I mentioned earlier that I had that brightening; where literally everything gets brighter. I also got a huge boost of energy. It's like drinking way too much coffee, without the shakes. I know that would destroy a lot of people around here, but I LIKE that feeling. The fatigue I've had for several years now has been horrible. So when I get that "rush" I go with it. I miss it when things level out. lol.

    As for the hypokalemia that was my own stupidity. I should have known it was coming when I had such a strong "brightening." I was fairly static with my protocol, I didn't think the tiny bit of the Anabol I had would do so much. Remember the first bit I had was only a tiny amount I put on my finger. Probably not even 1\6 of a capsule. AND I swallowed most of that. I'm not sure much stayed on my gumline. I'm not sure how much absorbs through the gut and I'm not sure if it absorbs well on the gum, but however it absorbed for me, it definitely absorbed!

    Now all of this may not be a fair comparison because the 2 or 3 weeks preceding the Anabol I was taking that degraded Source Naturals. I was having b12 deficiency symptoms again, burning feet being the one I remember the most right now.

    On a very positive note, my feet are about 90% back to normal. The burning stopped the first day of Anabol and the inflammation is almost gone. Yay!

    Thanks for the info on osteopaths. There are many of those here in town. That might even be covered under my benefit plan too, so that would be really good.
  13. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Got it. So you may have been jumping from degraded SN to Anabol and that was big ramp up.

    I will order some and give it a try. I am pretty comfortable at 2.5 grams SN. So I will try a small amount of Anabol and see what happens.

    On the other note, yeah I suggest the osteopath route. Just find one that know craniosacral and TMJ. Good luck!
  14. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    When you do try Anabol you might want to go no more than 1 to 1.25g to start. A 1:1 ratio with the SN might be too strong.

    I definitely need to start lower and titrate up.
  15. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I will give 1.25 g a go probably.
  16. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Lotus,

    Some people have reported startup from that brand with the IF who had not experienced it with other trials.
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Dbkita,

    There are two reasons. Swallowed it could allow 100mcg to absorb. Used as a sublingual it may absorb up to 10-33% instead of 1%. It's a lot less expensive per mcg when used sublingually. Also, as it plays a big role in inflammation control in diffusion distribution, sublingual puts more of it there much quicker pushing to higher serum levels for a very short time allowing deeper penetration by diffusion. Initial serum halflife at 100,000 to 200,000pg/ml (1mg injection) is 20-50 minutes. I'm running trials to see if I can find a dose proportionate anti-imflamation effect of some sort. MeCbl and AdoCbl appear to be additive as far as diffusion gradiant goes.

    The biggest difference is a lack of flavoring. It's totally bland.
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Phred,

    B12 deficiency causes a visual "dimming". My brightening was about 2 stops, 4x the apparant brightness. How was I to know? Until the desiccated liver I had never experienced it. My mood went undepressed at the same time.\

    Glad to hear things are going well. Keep following the clues.
  19. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Understood. I guess I was more wondering how the something that was formulated for oral consumption could in fact be absorbed faithfully through the oral mucosa. Usually they don't. But apparently live human testing shows that it can :)
  20. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Hi dbkita,
    Why did/do you expect something like the AN not fit for absorption through the oral mucosa? The dibencoplex does not have to be broken down by some enzym or acid, does it? It is the same substance as the stuff that's in the blood, isn't it?

    I like the fact there are no sweeteners in the AN. It does not provoke any saliva, so I do not swallow it that easily. I wish they would make the ET without the mannitol, the fructose and the flavoring.

    About the dose of AN. Since aB12 hasn't a short half life, well at least AFAIK, I took a 1/4 of a capsule every other day to get my body used to the stuff. I then upped it to a half every other day, after that a quarter every day. (That order went okay. Upping from a 1/4 every other day to 1/4 every day went wrong, that was too much.)

    I use empty vegetarian capsules to split the dose.
    In the beginning I did not do that, when I started with AN I emptied a capsule on a piece of tinfoil and used a knife to divide the stuff, but that's difficult and too much was spilled to my liking.
    Now, to get my daily quarter, I pour all of the contents of an AN capsule into a size 00 capsule of my own (00 is bigger), then pour half of my capsule into another capsule of mine. So that's a half dose each. I then take one of the filled capsules and pour half of it into a new one, so now I got two quarters inside two 00 of mine (and on the table a half in a 00). One of the quarters I pour into the empty original AN capsule, I close that one and the other one. The other half 00 of mine I divide in two two quarters as well. I close one of them, the other I pour onto my gum, while pulling my cheek aside. Then I take the skin on the outside of my cheeck between two fingers, I move my head a bit backwards while shaking my cheeck in order to spread out the dibencoplex.

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