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Anabol Dibencoplex vs Source Natural Adb12

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dbkita, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Yes I have. How do you think I got into all of this years ago. And before I started I had Rich Vank look at my lab data via private communications. And it has taken me over 2 years to converge on something that seems to work for me.

    My confusion is why your response to the following statement:

    "I strongly disagree with the assertion that methylation supplements will NOT affect a healthy person. BS. Maybe small amounts like in Rich Vanks protocol but even then I am not sure."

    Note the bolded "NOT". Hence I assert that even perfectly healthy people WILL have some reaction to methylation supplements and too many will overload even them. My only caveat is that maybe smaller amounts like in the SMP will NOT affect a healthy person (say like my wife) much.

    Methylation affects EVERYONE to some extent. It is basic biochemistry. Sorry.

    That being said I don't really disagree with what you quoted from Rich. Hb12 did not work for me and I found benefit with adb12 and I take 800 mcg of 5mthf per day.

    On another note Lotus what protocol are you using now?
     
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    dbkita
    Yes, I did read your statement. I'm trying to correct what seems to be a common misperception here that Rich's protocol is too weak to be effective for anyone. Even that's not what you meant. I also did read the part where you qualified your statement at the end "but even then I am not sure". That said, maybe I shouldn't have jumped on it the way I did. I don't know. I realize you know the difference, but many other people here reading your post don't know the difference.

    I'm not following a protocol right now. I had stopped B12 for a few weeks, but then I got really depressed so I thought taking it again would help. Right now I'm looking at my immune system supplements as a possible cause of my depression. Something about a cytokine flare. It's probably a combination of a lot things. Probably also just my body breaking down over the stress from the last 6 months. Except for joint pain which hasn't gotten much worse since my recovery, I'm probably the worst I've ever been or at least close to that. Even after a few weeks off the B12 I can't say my wiredness died down completely because I wasn't tired at all when I should be very tired after everything that has gone on. I suppose that might confirm your theory about norepinephrine being my problem (in regards to overstimulation, but I'm looking at all possibilities.

    It would hard to say that I stopped methylation entirely though. I'm taking around 1000 mg betaine hcl (works the same as TMG for those who don't know). I'm taking coenzyme q10 which is a methyl donor. I'm taking carnitine fumarate which greenshots said wasn't a methyl donor, but it is part of Freddd's protocol. I'm not sure how much the nonactive b vitamins affect methylation, but I was taking around 200 mg of B1,B2,B3,B5. Then there's the 200 mg choline in my b vitamins which is a methyl donor. 300 mcg reduced folate from my food. Folic acid doesn't block methylfolate for me so the folic acid in my b complex wouldn't have blocked the plant folate, but the vitamin c I take with some of my meals might have. I have no idea if my body is able to covert any of the 800 mcg of folic acid into methylfolate. I really wish I knew how much methylfolate was in that Jarrow B Right Complex I was taking so I could guage my reaction to methylfolate. I ended up buying some Quatrefolic methylfolate because it was on sale for $2.00. I'm in no mood to do any tests. I haven't decided what to do about B12. I've been taking hydroxocobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. I'm not sure how many of these affect methylation, but I'm also taking a lot of the supplements Freddd recommends such as Chromium, Zinc, Selenium, Gamma E (I would recommend Jarrow instead of NOW. Much better ratio of Gamma to Alpha tocopherol), 5000 IU D3 (I took your advice and cut back my dose from 10000 IU), Vitamin A (from my fruits and vegetables), fish oil, vitamin C, calcium/magnesium. I took all of these during my recovery plus Alpha Lipoic Acid and D Ribose and I never got "start up" symptoms from any of them. I assume this was because I wasn't taking B12 or folate then so I don't see why any should cause me problems now if I do stop B12 and folate. And the Niacin in my b complex should also be reducing the effects of my methylation supplements.
     
  3. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Understood. But again I was disputing the exact opposite in the context of a healthy person. I.e. even a healthy person will be affected by methylation supplements. That is where I disagree strongly with Rich Vank (may he rest in peace).

    My only caveat was that the amounts in the SMP are small enough that a healthy person with no deficiencies may be largely unaffected. For a person who has deficits in methylation there will almost certainly be an effect. How much depends on what they need.

    I am sorry you are doing so poorly right now. I don't have any answers. I think you have yet to have a valid working diagnosis. Methylation can certainly increase inflammation. On the other hand you seem dedicated to defending Rich's protocol when I am not even sure it is under attack (I certainly am not).

    If you feel so strongly about it maybe your sub-conscious is trying to tell you something and you should go ahead and try it (slowly of course). Just a thought.

    I have often cautioned that too much methylation support can cause issues in people and there may be alternative sources which must be addressed. In my own case, my life did not improve until someone identified my autoimmune disease. No amount of methylation would have helped with that. On the other hand, I want it made clear that I do not believe people should skip or forego methylation support because it has helped me. Many of your recent posts seem almost antagonistic to methylation or to certainly anything beyond Rich Vank's SMP. Fair enough but I think everyone has their own balance point.

    In theory hydroxy b12 should be fine for me. It is not. I do not do well on it (fatigue, depression, etc.) I have been on methylation support for 2+ years now. As even Rich noted people may need to switch to mb12. I did that a long time ago. Besides some of the theoretical attraction to hb12 has been debunked in recent literature (read the Gorilla in the Room thread and see the wonderful paper). TMG caused way too high a norepinephrine to dopamine ratio in me. That was just 500 mg or roughly 600 mg betaine HCL. Folinic acid is probably ok with me but I have gravitated to 5mthf only. Adb12 was rough at first but now it is VERY important to me.

    All I can say is find your entry point, work it slowly then find your balance point. If you cannot even enter then something else is your main problem and the methylation protocol is superfluous at the moment. Just my two cents.
     
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I actually don't even have a problem with Freddd's protocol other than I think the dosages are too high for some of the people on it. If I seemed antagonistic it was only because some people are too sick to do methylation or at least need to take care of other health issue either before or in conjunction with a methylation protocol. I think we agree at least on the part about there being more to the picture than just methylation. Maybe with some people that's enough. I don't know what your opinion is about whether people are too sick for methylation.
    As they say in politics, I'm just trying to adjust to the facts on the ground as they change
    If that's true then why do some people taking hydroxocobalamin improve? I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I really want to hear an answer.
    It didn't seem to cause problems for me in the past, but do you think it could affect me now that my health has changed? As I said I don't want to rule anything out.
    I agree. All the supplements I'm taking now are for other reasons besides methylation. They just happened to be used in some protocols.
     
  5. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    One case I can see this is for people with really high amounts of inflammation. Rich's central tenet is they were GSH depleted. But I think there is much more to it than that. I suppose also people with infections like Lyme's or heavy metal tox could have real problems also. Have you been able to assess your mercury status yet? I think personally a hair analysis would be very useful for you. But that is just a thought.
    As they say in politics, I'm just trying to adjust to the facts on the ground as they change

    Hehe you are using reverse logic here. It is true. I.e. my own reaction and the paper I referenced. And I don't have an answer why some benefit and others don't. Look at Adreno. In earlier post he felt that he had much less tachycardia on hb12 ... but a few months later he was back on mb12. He could tell you better about his own personal experience I am sure, but there must have been some reason he went back. For me the adb12 was a big missing piece. Adjusting it to a 1:1 ratio meb12 to hb12 seems to be a good combo as per Freddd. I always took it daily already.

    No clue. The only thing I know is it affected me. And it has been empirically observed that stimulating BHMT will end up with more NE metabolites than DA metabolites. No one on the planet knows why. But the logical inference is somehow a shift towards more NE and away from DA. I experienced this myself and it is not a good idea for someone trying to calm down their immune system.


    Fair enough. But I would still advocate trying to have one or two hypotheses for diagnosis and supplementing in careful experiment for those. I believe supplementation / medication without a working diagnosis is fraught with peril.
     
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    dbkita
    I just remembered, I was on Risperdal then which can lower norepinephrine and I'm on Prozac now that can raise norepinephrine. However, after I was taking methlyfolate for a month a two and was extremely overstimulated I then stopped and was extremely tired. However, when I tried taking B12 only (except 5 days of folinic acid) after I stopped my overstimulation didn't die down completely even after a few weeks. Maybe I was just more burned out after the methylfolate which is why my body wasn't able to override the fatigue.

    What does that paper have to do with hydroxocobalamin? And I thought hydroxocobalamin can be converted into both methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. Maybe some people can't get enough from hb12, but are you saying it doesn't covert into the active b12s at all? Wouldn't that have shown up on the methylation pathways panel? Is that test just a scam?
    I realized I just read the abstract. That's probably why it didn't make sense. I'll take a look at the full text.
     
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I don't see any mention of hydroxocobalamin in the paper. And hydroxocobalamin lowers peryoxynitrite too.
     
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Ummm sorry but did you read the whole paper? The central tenet is the hb12 lowering peryoxynitrite is the SECONDARY backup pathway when everything else has broken down. That the primary pathway is the one that involves BH4 and adb12. That is a major redefinition of the landscape and is information that people like Rich Vank or Dr Yasko never had when they created their protocols. In other words your last statement that "hydroxocobalamin lowers peryoxynitrite" is technically correct BUT it is not the DESIRED way to do so. I don't think I can make it any clearer than that. You might also find it useful to read the rest of the Gorilla in the Room thread if you have not already.
     
  9. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Xara, I had many of your neurological symptoms, including pain, intrusive thoughts, hyperventilating, muscle fasiculations, tremors. 3 days after eliminating gluten and dairy, beginning the GAPS diet, most of those things were either greatly reduced or gone. That preceded any addition of methylation protocol supplements. Also my connective tissue ailments, at that time frozen shoulder and Dupuytrens Contractures, released within 2 weeks. Might be worth your investigation. Best wishes, ahmo
     
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  10. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I would like to concur that going off gluten and dairy is a big deal. That really helped me with some of my problems.
     
  11. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    True. I had no side effects from hydroxy. In fact I had no effects at all. And why take anything that uses up gluthatione and methyl groups in the first place; isn't this exactly what we're trying to remedy?

    I listened to Rich and tried the hydroxy. It didn't do anything, and was probably even making me worse in the long run. I took it only for a few months. But Rich had an important point about avoiding overmethylation, a point I strongly agree with. Freddd doesn't seem to acknowledge that this is a concern, and this is where I part ways with his protocol. But I agree with him that mb12, adb12 and mf are what works, it is only the dosages that we disagree on.

    I want to add that I am not taking adb12 presently. I plan to increase my mb12 slowly until I reach 5mg daily, after which I will add in 2.5mg adb12 if tolerated. But I want the mb12 up first, as not to cause an imbalance between the two.
     
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    If you have time, could you briefly explain this? If hydroxy isn't effective I'd like to know why. And do you believe hb12 is ineffective for everyone? Also, have you raised your methylfolate back up too or just the B12?
     
  14. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Hydroxycobalamin needs gluthatione and methyl groups to convert to the active B12 forms. Dbkita can probably explain the chemistry better than I can. Whether it is bad for everyone I cannot say for sure, but I'm starting to think that it is something that should be avoided, especially after the information we got from the gorilla study. It is still a better option than cyano, but I would only use it if you have no access to mb12.
     
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  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Do either of you know Rich and Yasko's reasoning for using Hydroxocobalamin? I'm not trying to defend them, but I do want to know why they chose it. I've already heard Rich's explanation about preventing overdriving the methylation cycle, but is that it? Also, if it does use up a significant amount of glutathione wouldn't that have shown up on the methylation pathways panel?
     
  16. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    They have recommended hydroxy for the reasons already discussed. That is avoiding overmethylation, avoiding overstimulation and excitotoxicity, and quenching peroxynitrite.

    Hydroxy might bring down gluthatione initially, but the net effect once the methylation block is lifted, is increased gluthatione. I just personally believe that mb12 is more effective.
     
  17. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I would second all of this. I believe hydroxy b12 is kind of dead end for most. Quenching peroxynitirite appears to be strongly the province of adb12 anyways while hydoxyb12 is a secondary poor backup based on the excellent "Gorilla in the Room" study. Overmethylation is a consideration but that seems best handled by dosing and if you get into trouble you can use niacin or niacinamide to bail you out on the occasional bad experiment. Heck you can co-administer with ascorbic acid if you want to do an experimental titration if you are reluctant to cut pills. The overstim and overmethylation are coupled imo.

    Btw Adreno pursuant to your earlier post, I hear you plan to march to 5 mg mb12 then try adb12. That is probably a good idea. Do you plan to adjust methylfolate in anyway? Personally I seem to benefit from 2500 / 2500 mcg of mb12 and adb12.
     
  18. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Agreed.

    I plan to stay at 400mcg MTHF for the time being, especially since I want to avoid overdriving the methylation cycle when I increase B12. I have tried before equal amounts of MB12/ADB12 but it didn't work out very well (felt unstable). But there were a lot of confounding factors, such as high MTHF doses etc. This time I plan to keep the MTHF moderately low, increase MB12 first, then add about half the MB12 dose as ADB12.
     
  19. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Whatever dose you converge on, I would take the Adb12 each day. I think the Gorilla in the Room article supports this this. Btw which brand of adb12 are you planning to use?
     
  20. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Yes, I plan to take 2.5mg every day. I have used the Source Naturals brand. I have been following this thread with interest, since many have recommended the Anabol brand, but from what I've read here I think I'll just stay with SN.
     

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