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Anabol Dibencoplex vs Source Natural Adb12

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dbkita, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I have no idea how effective it is or why they put folic acid in it, but Thorne has an oral methylcobalamin supplement they claim is well absorbed.
    http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Bio-B12-60-Veggie-Caps/18545
  2. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    When I inject hydroxyB12 or methylB12 intramuscular that very same day my urine changes colour. Is this because of too much hydroxyB12 floating around, too much methylB12 floating around or too many methyls floating around?
  3. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    What is the color change? More yellow? Less? Darker? Lighter?
  4. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    O, I'm sorry. It's darker, more yellow. Especially and definitely when injecting hydroxy.
    MethylB12, I don't remember well... Same I think... I started injected mB12 just a couple of weeks ago, didn't pay much attention to it, because I more or less expected the same to happen.
    Last couple of weeks I'm taking extra B2, that colours urine alot, so the effect of B12 is difficult to see nowadays.
  5. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    My urine is more yellow / darker when I take methylation support (i.e. methyfolate, mb12, p5p, r5p, etc.)

    Remember riboflavin (b2) in its active form is the rate-limiting step for making methylfolate for many people. Everyone focuses on here on the P5p and b12, but in many cases is it the r5p.

    So for example, if I take 800 mcg FolaPro, 25 mg P5p, 2000 mcg mb12, 2 mg adb12, and NO b2, my urine is much lighter and less yellow. If I add in 100 mg of b2, my urine is yellower, more concentrated and my urine sulfates go up.
    On the other hand if I take B2, bu drop the Folapro I am somewhere in between.
    Little Bluestem likes this.
  6. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Do you have any idea what the equivalent of the non-active form of B2 is to R5P? I suppose it depends on the individual, but I am still curious if you have a guess.
  7. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Not sure what you mean by the question. Riboflavin will get converted into R5p just like B6 into P5p.
    The difference is that is you take riboflavin you cannot absorb more than 30-35 mg in one dose due to saturation effects.
    However, there is no such limitation if you take r5p-sodium. For a while I took a vitamin supplement that was 100 mg of R5p-sodium that was much more methylating that 100 mg riboflavin, probably based on the different bioavailability.
  8. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Yeah, that's what I meant. How much of Riboflavin gets converted into R5P. So if you can only absorb 30-35 mg at a time then taking a B100 wouldn't be a good idea? I know there are other reasons not to take a B100...
  9. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I take all my B-vitamins separately. The biggest reason is I am careful how much P5p I get. Too much can really jack my norepinephrine levels among other things.
  10. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Hi dbkita!

    Thanks for the information about B2. Much appreciated. I am taking Solgar Riboflavin 50 Mg twice a day... Won't reorder that one again, knowing now that 15 mg is not used. I'll change it for an R5P.

    About the B12...
    The reason I asked about what form of B12 leaves the body (hB12, mB12 or methyls) had something to do with you speaking of the body conversing/stripping hB12 and mB12.
    I know that my urine coloured more yellow when injecting myself with hB12 and not supplementing B2. I more or less expected my urine to become a darker yellow too when injecting with mB12 too, but I forgot to check and besides, I used B2 by then.

    Now the thing I'd like to know: what was exactly the thing my body disposed of? Was it an excess of hB12? Did it converse all the hB12 into active B12 and removed an excess of mB12? Or did it transform the hB12, stripped all of the mB12 and disposed of an excess of methyls?

    Why is this important?
    I have learned that one can not get an excess of B12, the excess will leave the body via the kidneys. Several studies seem to have shown that there were no side effects of administering large amounts, even directly into the veins.
    So when injecting and seeing the colour change, I thought: there goes the excess.

    But as soon as I started to read about methylation and methylation protocols I bumped into the word 'overmethylation'.
    If I remember correctly Freddd does not believe in such a thing and because of what I had learned I shared his view.

    Still... I see people having complaints when taking too much mB12.

    So after reading your most interesting posts about the stripping business :) I thought: could it be that the kidneys do filter out hB12 and mB12 (which colours the urine) but not the methyls? Could it be that (an abundance of) floating methyls are the ones that are responsible for overmethylation?

    This is quite a difficult subject for me, being just an interested patient. Do I make some sense over here, or have I misunderstood everything you and everyone else is saying?

    Could you bring some light into my darkness?
  11. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    PS
    I do understand negative effects caused by too much methylfolate.
    Here I am referring to problems caused by taking too much mB12.
  12. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    The concept of overmethylation is a HUGE disagreement between Rich and Fredd
  13. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Yes, I know. But hey, maybe I have found a bridge between those two views. Haha. Imagine that, me! Hahaha.
  14. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Overmethylation is a very,very real thing. It is basic biochemistry. People focus on methylation via the cycle, but in fact methylation via SAMe (mostly) is a huge regulator of gene expression, even silencing certain genes. Too much methylation can have HUGE effects on the body. Period. Anything to the contrary is just ... wrong.

    That being said overmethylation is NOT generally the province of b12 generally since even the methyl b12 variant has a very short half-life. Some people on these forums take massive doses to force it to high overpowering concentrations in the CNS to help them with fundamental neurological issues.

    On the other hand taking too much SAMe directly, too much TMG and for sure too much 5mthf or even folinic acid for many (or even folic acid for like 40% of the population) can overmethylate you. For those who lack the C677T SNP, riboflavin can also really spark methylation. Those with A1298C mutations are susceptible to overmethylation since the SAMe negative feedback mechanism on MTHFR via allosteric binding is inhibited (which can be really bad). P5p is also a contributor and can spark those with trans-sulfuration problems. B12 has much less impact on overmethylation (though mb12 will reduce melatonin and can cause some insomnia regardless of 'startup' effects).

    Personally I overmethylated myself for two years taking too much methylfolate, TMG, r5p, p5p and even some SAMe (the last of which made me understand clinically that I was hammering myself wrongly). And no it was no detox or start-up effects. That tune gets real old real fast for some of us. And it wasn't low potassium either since I got 10 grams per day in diet and supplements. It was simply over-methylation.
    brenda, jeffrez and Lotus97 like this.
  15. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Dear dbkita,

    Thank you! Very very interesting!
    I have the C677T mutation and had noticed some neurologcal effects (no tingling and brainfog anymore, but aphasia and ataxia are still there) when I started with methylfolate and mB12. But the fatigue, so very much restricting in every day life (I am not far from being bedridden), that fatigue has not diminished, not the tiniest bit. I still have difficulty with ordinary things like getting (un)dressed.
    So I started adding different cofactors, and upping methylfolate, aB12 and mB12. It does not seem to do anything though (other than needing a melatonin supplement).

    If I understand your latest posting correctly upping mB12 won't help me much with the fatigue. Maybe same applies to methylfolate.
    AdenoB12, it got me some nasty side effects at first (it seemed histaminelevels were going up: painful swelling of sinuses) but I succeeded titrating it up to 2.5 mg per day in three (or four?) weeks.

    Now, I have been taking Solgar 50 mg of Riboflavin twice a day, it seems to leave my body (entirely/partly) via urine though. Do you think, considering me having the C677T, I might need r5P in a high dose? To start noticing SOME effect, even the smallest, when it comes to fatigue? (I know fatigue is known to take its time but it would make me so very happy to see some small improvement in that area.).

    I know this thread is not about me so if you don't wish to react to this specific problem of mine, being not related to the subject of your thread, I would certainly understand. You have already helped me a great deal by sharing your knowledge in different threads. Thank you for that.

    ---------------

    In case you or others would like to know here is my planned daily intake for the coming week:

    1600 mcg methylfolate, 4 mg mB12, 2.5 mg AN dibencoplex, appr. 900 mg potassium, 100 mg B2, 1000 mcg Curcumin (Meriva), 855 mg L-carnitine fumarate, 500 mg TMG, 2.5 g D-Ribose, 100 mg R-ala, calcium, magnesium, melatonin, vitamin K2, and a European B-complex (Orthica co-enzym B-complex).
    I have no food issues, except gluten. During the day I take green smoothies, at dinner: vegetables and meat/fish, or vegetarian. In the evening: two hands of different nuts.

    Thank you reader for your attention. :)
  16. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    O, I forgot:
    and 150 mcg of iodine. :)
  17. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Hi Xara what other symptoms (if any) do you have other than fatigue? Also are you homozygous C677 or heterozygous? Just curious.
  18. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    Hi dbkita!

    Thanks for your interest, thanks for asking. Much appreciated.

    I am heterozygous, sorry. That was the only genetic thing that was tested btw, so I don't know whether there are other issues as well.
    (I am considering 23andme but I'm not at ease yet with them using my genetic info for other purposes.)

    Other symptoms:
    I consider fatigue the biggest issue at the moment, because it's turning me into an invalid.
    Other things do not bother me every second of the day. But here they are:
    Using the incorrect word without knowing it (e.g. yes instead of no, left instead of right) and persisting in that mistake when being confronted, mixing two fixed expressions into a new one, not being able to find the word I'm wishing to use, bumping into things (and e.g. breaking a nose as a result of it), tripping over nothing, not being able to walk in a straight line, shortnes of breath and rapid, uncomfortable pounding hearbeat when doing something small like combing my hair, muscle weakness (arms and legs feeling like they're made of lead, the staircase is a mountain to me), burning sensation under my skin after physical or mental exertion, jumping heart (missing a hearbeat), the feeling of (short painful) knife stabs in longs that take my breath away, feeling cold to the bone, sudden muscle contractions in legs/arms, or hands/calves (small and sometimes repetitive or big but one time only). And, remarkable but not complaining about: low heart beat (45-50), low blood pressure (< 100 and < 60) when not active.

    In short: mostly b12 defciency symptoms I think. :)
    My B12 was 119, at the time I did not supplement any B12.
    My homocystein was slightly elevated (12.5).

    I have been taking hydroxyB12 1 mg injections twice a week since being diagnosed b12-deficient. It did not help much, got worse actually. Started with the methylfolate, mB12 and aB12 pills in December 2012. Started with co-factors in January. Started with mB12 injections 1 mg thrice a week this week.
  19. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    And krill oil 500 mg, and ubiquinol 100 mg.
    And chiaseed and flaxseed.

    I have been rather cautious with cofactors thus far, I think. But I have started with them only recently of course.
  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Why does Rich talk about too much B12 overdriving the methylation cycle? I thought that was the same as overmethylation.

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