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Anabol Dibencoplex vs Source Natural Adb12

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by dbkita, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Have no idea, really. Intrinsic factor is in the gut, so I don't think that's a factor when it comes to taking B12 sublingually, which is one reason they developed sublinguals, i.e., for those who couldn't absorb. The preferred way of getting B12 in fact is actually through your gut *because of* the intrinsic factor. We evolved absorbing b12 from eating meat, which no one takes sublingually, obviously. Sublingual absorption is a much poorer means of b12 absorbtion than through the gut, at least as long as you have intrinsic factor.
  2. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    My point was that Perque's sublingual dissolves quickly which leads me to question how much is actually absorbed sublingually. My understanding was that for a sublingual to be effective it must dissolve slowly so I was wondering why people claim it was effective. Perhaps it was because they were able to absorb it in the gut (?)
  3. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Maybe, or maybe the speed of dissolving doesn't really matter much before a certain point. I mean if you have 100 "pores" or whatever the mechanism is for absorbing the substance, up to that point it won't really matter much if 100 "units" go in at once, or you put in 1 unit every minute for 100 minutes. If you oversaturate the mechanism and put in 200 units all at once, maybe the extra hundred just gets swallowed and then most of it gets absorbed it the gut anyway, like you suggest, but as long as you're not going over your capacity to absorb, maybe even keeping it in the mouth for 5 minutes is plenty for most people. Don't really know, just speculating. I'm sure whoever designs the sublinguals takes the actual factors into account, and that's what they base their recommendations on for keeping it in the mouth for 3 minutes, 5 minutes, or whatever.
  4. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I was mostly going by what other people in these forums said about dissolving speed, but maybe it makes more of a difference for certain people have problems with gut absorption. I'm not sure if you or anyone else knows this, but is it better to divide up your dosages of B12 to increase absorption?
  5. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I guess it depends on the individual and how fast they absorb. In general, dividing the dose would seem like a good idea, especially if you require a lot. Then again, an IV or injection gives a lot in one dose, so I suppose it's up to the person to decide what works best for them.
  6. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    The amount of B12 you need to prevent pernicious anemia is not remotely close tothe amounts being used on these boards for neurological healing and methylation support. In fact the amount of B12 you can absorb in the gut with intrinsic factor is saturated at a relatively low amount.

    Everything I have read suggests there is not much difference in oral bio-availability in humans for methyl b12 or adb12.
    And that is accounting for intrinsic factor. As you pointed out lack of intrinsic factor is pretty rare. The same holds true when they do in vivo studies.

    So while I hear what you are saying I still don't get how the Anabol brand circumvents this. While not impossible it seems unlikely that a person will absorb the same amount of adb12 in the Anabol brand orally as they will with something like Source Naturals which is meant to be sublingual. And I don't buy into the fact that the boron is anything special. Boron is a common "filler" in many weightlifting supplements dating back to the early to mid 90s or so.
  7. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Most if not all of the evidence I've seen says that there's not much difference between oral and sublingual routes of administration, as long as the person has the ability to absorb b12 from the gut, hasn't had bypass surgery, etc. I have to question the sense in taking a supplement sublingually that hasn't been specifically designed to be taken that way, though. Perhaps you might absorb more Source Naturals than Dibencoplex sublingually - then again, you might not - but the SN is specifically marketed as a sublingual while the Dibenco is not. I doubt you'd absorb more SN sublingually than Dibenco orally. You'd probably end up absorbing about the same amount of both.
  8. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    I agree with the last sentence. I too see no reason to take the Anabol sublingually since it is not designed as such (unlike the Source Naturals).

    As for the first sentence, I would be interested in learning more since the materials I have read and the many discussions on these forums certainly suggest otherwise for methyl b12. While I have yet to find something specific about adb12 in that regards, I have a hard time seeing how it would differ substantially from methyl b12 in terms of transport and absorption. On the other hand from what I have seen online of the Anabol brand there is nothing to suggest that it is bound in some sort of delivery system to facilitate absorption (i.e. liposomes, etc.). So I dunno.
  9. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I thought I had read that boron facilitated the absorption of b12, but now I only see references to facilitating the absorption of calcium and vitamin D. But perhaps it also helps absorb b12, or perhaps it's just a filler.

    The only two studies I found on medline both said that they found no difference between sublingual and oral routes of administration of mb12. I didn't find any study specifically on ab12, but like you said, i doubt it would be much different than for mb12.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14616423

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17109579
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  10. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    The first study is for cobalamin not methyl B12. The issue is the methyl is removed in the gut and must be replaced by the body at the active site. Methyl B12 normally cannot permeate the membranes. Even to get into the cell the methyl is stripped and added back on inside the cell but at least the methyl group is now closer to the functional loci.

    The second study is provocative but (a) the dosage is very low for mb12 and (b) the measured quantity is homocysteine levels. Besides if you go with that study then apparently there is no need for mb12 (b12 is sufficient by the above argument) and folic acid is more than sufficient (which is only true for about 30-40% of the population). I would love if they could use a more relevant indicator instead of HCY levels.

    That being said what dose of the Anabol do you find to be equivalent to a dose you used to take of the Source Naturals? Do you have a comparison from your own personal perspective?

    I agree I don't see the point of trying to put the Anabol on the gumline. If it is not made to be sublingual then it will just sit there until some it drains down into the gut where it will have to enter via the intestine.

    Edit: The boron mystique was hashed out in another thread "the gorilla in the room" one on Adb12. The boron was concluded to have zilch to do with adb12, unless I am misinterpreting something.
  11. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    That's true, according to the full text I see now that first study is for cyano. Regardless, the findings are that sublingual absorption is not superior to oral absorption in that case, either. Having to strip the cyano to reduce the b12 to take the methyl group is a separate issue and would be irrelevant to absorption at that level, wouldn't it?

    Both the SN and the Country Life ab12 gave me bad reactions, so I didn't take either long enough to be able to directly compare to the Anabol, but, since based on the reactions I was obviously absorbing them I would guess the doses to be comparable to the amount of Anabol I take. That would be about 1/5 or less of a capsule of Anabol - I pour the powder just up to the very small ridge in the small half of the cap - compared to I think half a tab of the CL and 1/4 of a tab of SN, if memory serves. I doubt I took full doses right away.
  12. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Actually the methyl being stripped off in the gut is a big deal. It is lost to the rest of the body. Hence why people take injections and even sublingual (though clearly not as effective as injections). Otherwise if you take regular B12, your body supplies the methyl groups a la the methylation cycle.

    What sort of reactions do you have btw to the CL and SN sublinguals? And what do you experience on the Anabol brand, i.e. how do you react to that, what are the positives? Just curious.
  13. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Yes, a big deal. But isn't it the cyano group that gets stripped off the cyanocobalamin, to "reduce" the b12 to be able to accept the methyl group? I thought mb12 was already active and didn't need reducing, so I'm confused by your statement. Or are you saying a methyl group needs to be stripped from mb12 for absorption, and then added back again later, in the cell?

    I had severe nightmares and increased anxiety from the CL and SN. I've written about it in the past on the forum somewhere. I had increased anxiety/panic from the Anabols at first, too - no nightmares, though - but reducing the dose helped until I was accustomed to it, and since then it's been okay unless I take too much. The positives are noticeably more energy from it, which declines unless I take some every few days. I usually go every other day now unless I'm getting too ramped up, then I go down to M/W/F for a while.
  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    jeffrez
    Do you think your bad reaction from the sublinguals was because you absorbed more of it than the Anabol?
  15. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    The bolded statement, yes. Except if stripped in the gut the methyl is gone for good. If stripped in the interstitial space it can be used / recycled later to help add back in the cell. Ironically most people don't realize the half-life of the methyl b12 you take even by injection is very, very short ... it is the recycling that is the key. I think adb12 is more stable in the body but I still think the actual half-life of a specific molecule is very small ...
  16. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    How do you recycle b12?
  17. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    That's a good question, and I wondered that too until finally concluding it wasn't the case. When I lowered the dose of the others to where it seemed like they were doing nothing and causing no increase in daytime anxiety I would still get the nightmares, while increasing the Anabols definitely increased the anxiety - which was worse than with the others at any dose anyway - but it never once caused nightmares like with the other two. Do I understand it? No, but I just have to listen to my body, which doesn't seem to like the SN or CL. Maybe with even more reduction in dosage and then working up I would be able to tolerate them, but I figure if the AN works, why mess with success.
  18. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    So in other words, cyanocobalamin first has to get reduced to methylcobalamin, and then the methylcobalamin goes through this stripping/re-adding process with the methyl group? I thought it was hydroxycobalamin that was reduced to mb12, but maybe they both are?
  19. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Cyanocobalamin is stripped of the cyano group, the b12 is shipped across the gut lining and then hydrogenated to make hydroxy b12 for dynamic conversion in the cell to active forms for which the body must supply the adenosyl or methyl groups. In reality actual storage of b12 in the cell is slanted to the glutathionyl form I believe, but let's not make things too complex.

    If you ingest methyl B12, for it to get past the gut (unless you have a leaky gut with poor junctions I suppose) the methyl group is stripped, the B12 transported into the bloodstream then converted (probably as hydroxy b12, not sure) and things continue the same as above.

    If you inject methyl b12 then it goes full into the blood stream as is. To get into cells it needs to be stripped off BUT the methyl group is now freely available to the body in the interstiitial space and that is what I meant by the actual half life of B12 is very small BUT the body has access to more methyl groups which eventually it pull also into the cells and use for methylating THF etc. At massive doses (a la the Freddd protocol for some on these boards) there is so much extra methyls floating around that they can essentially saturate many methylation related reactions so the predominant methylation path may no longer simply be the 5mthf methylation of b12 leading to methionine synthase. Hard to say.

    If you use a sublingual then you have something in between. If designed as sublingual then some methyl b12 is directly absorbed (maybe 5-20% depending on various factors) but some it goes into the gut also of course which follows the oral route.

    I am pretty sure hydroxy b12 is more stable than methyl b12 but I think it too needs injection or sublingual for more effect.

    Personally I do much better on methyl b12 than on hydroxy b12 even though I only have A1298C mutations so who knows.

    I am then assuming the pharmacokinetics of adb12 is similar to mb12 but this may not be exactly true.
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  20. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    The main path for recycling B12 is accomplished by 5mthf (methylfolate) methylating B12 which then feeds into methionine synthase to turn the wheel for homocystein. Your body is supposed to be able to interconvert between different forms of b12. If it can't then yeah you have a problem. Some people on these forums clearly do and this is why they need high amounts of methylfolate and methyl b12 to feel better.
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