Snookum96
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I saw it on an me Facebook group
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Welcome to Phoenix Rising!
Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of, and finding treatments for, complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia, long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.
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An Investigation into the Relationship Between ME(CFS) and Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder
- Thread starter worldbackwards
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worldbackwards
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It's the new "Of course it's a real illness. But..."
sarah darwins
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Bang on, Sam. It also feels to me as though psychologists are encouraging their students to see the ME patient population as a sort of jolly sandbox for playing with ideas in. And the ideas underpinning this particular questionnaire are not harmless, by any means, though I doubt the author of it realises that.
sarah darwins
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Just trying to think constructively for a minute, has anyone written a sort of "What psychology students should know about ME" type of piece? I know there are plenty of psychologists (is Dr Ellen Goudsmit one?) who disagree with the whole biopsychosocial take on MUS/ME etc. It would be great if there was a resource like that we could steer students towards, so they at least get a different perspective. Just wondering.
chipmunk1
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The solution is CBT. Now let's figure out what your problem is.
Jo Best
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Hi Sarah, Leonard Jason, Professor of Clinical and Community Psychology at DePaul University, springs to mind as a reputable and much-published source, as although in USA, is of international relevance and renown and very approachable online. Here's an opinion piece he wrote for the London IIMEC in May this year - http://ldifme.org/an-inspiration-for-the-world/
Publications and education materials are on the Center for Community Research site under Myalgic Encephalomyelitis and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - http://csh.depaul.edu/about/centers...lgic-encephalomyelitis-cfs/Pages/default.aspx
Daisymay
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I'm sorry but I think it was inadvisable to do that, people may well think that as the MEA details are there, the MEA is endorsing this work, why should they think otherwise?
John Mac
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T
Maybe it's been done deliberatly to give the reader the "wrong" impression that the ME Association has endorsed the study. After all she did ask them and they said no.
SOC
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Once again, some academically bankrupt university psych dept is teaching undergraduates that research involves poorly constructed questionnaires asking questions of a completely uncontrolled and therefore unidentifiable population. There is so much contrary to basic science and research principles here that it almost looks like some kind of joke -- and Onion piece. It's like a lesson in how NOT to do research. Even 5th graders doing polls about which grade level students prefer which sports have a sounder research basis. At least they know whether the people they are questioning actually belong to the claimed sample set.
It is no longer a wonder to me that psychology is producing so much abysmally poor so-called research if this is what they teach their undergraduates research is. As a former researcher and instructor, I find this utterly shocking. I would never let a student get past the proposal phase with a research project this far from anything resembling science.... and the student would probably get a lecture for being so clueless about fundamental science principles.
It is no longer a wonder to me that psychology is producing so much abysmally poor so-called research if this is what they teach their undergraduates research is. As a former researcher and instructor, I find this utterly shocking. I would never let a student get past the proposal phase with a research project this far from anything resembling science.... and the student would probably get a lecture for being so clueless about fundamental science principles.
A.B.
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I also found it sad there was no attempt to make sure that participants actually have CFS. Remember that thread where a person was "diagnosed" over the phone by an occupational therapist? In the US there also seems to be a problem with not everyone being able to afford a proper medical investigation to exclude other explanations. And many people mistakenly think that they must have CFS because they feel tired.
This is junk science that's worse than useless. I don't say this to insult this student.
It seems that CFS has really become a playground of sorts for psychology where they let their imagination run wild without regard for facts checking.
This is junk science that's worse than useless. I don't say this to insult this student.
It seems that CFS has really become a playground of sorts for psychology where they let their imagination run wild without regard for facts checking.
sarah darwins
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Thanks, Jo. Good to have Prof Jason mentioned here, lest any students happen by, but I can't see anything there that would catch the eye of a psych student looking for briefing notes on a condition from a psych perspective.
If @charles shepherd is still following this thread, would Dr Ellen Goudsmit consider writing a piece like that? She would seem ideal, given her biography: http://www.meassociation.org.uk/2009/11/dr-ellen-goudsmit-joins-me-association-panel-of-advisers/
As a fellow of the BPS she would carry weight with UK students. Somebody needs to put the other side of 'the role of psychology in me/cfs' directly to students, I feel. Seems like they're only getting one point of view. A made-to-measure primer would be a useful tool.
I studied psychology in college and believe me something like this would not be acceptable. While the student is an undergraduate and the courses may not be as rigorous, there should be enough information taught that would show her flawed ideas.
I would certainly hope her instructors would point out that not everyone has OCD. If she meant something else then her wording needs reworking. That's taught in a basic English course.
I don't know about the UK but my training, which was before much was known about me/cfs, did not stress physical disorders as psychological.
There were a couple of times I encountered a few hanging on to old school ideas in my work, but they were in the minority. One example was a student who would occasionally soil himself after a length of time without having a bowel movement. His records from his previous school stated that both behaviors were a form of control over those around him, especially his parents. The withholding was also a form of sexual pleasure. The first thing we did was getting him a thorough physical which showed he was extremely constipated from poor nutrition and meds he was on. Easily fixed. He also had absence seizures which are very brief and, often not noticed, that made him soil himself.
I only included this to show how these attitudes can be harmful physically and socially.
Barb
ETA I I think I confused this thread with another. Let me know if I need to change this post.
I would certainly hope her instructors would point out that not everyone has OCD. If she meant something else then her wording needs reworking. That's taught in a basic English course.
I don't know about the UK but my training, which was before much was known about me/cfs, did not stress physical disorders as psychological.
There were a couple of times I encountered a few hanging on to old school ideas in my work, but they were in the minority. One example was a student who would occasionally soil himself after a length of time without having a bowel movement. His records from his previous school stated that both behaviors were a form of control over those around him, especially his parents. The withholding was also a form of sexual pleasure. The first thing we did was getting him a thorough physical which showed he was extremely constipated from poor nutrition and meds he was on. Easily fixed. He also had absence seizures which are very brief and, often not noticed, that made him soil himself.
I only included this to show how these attitudes can be harmful physically and socially.
Barb
ETA I I think I confused this thread with another. Let me know if I need to change this post.
Last edited:
charles shepherd
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I don't think Ellen takes part in this group - so I've sent her a link to the discussion to see if she might be interested in following up your suggestion and writing something aimed at psychology students
sarah darwins
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Thank you, Charles.
EllenGB
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Dear all,
Charles alerted me to this.
There is no link between ME and OCD. I've looked at this before. for one thing, no one has energy to spend on compulsions etc. Can't even imagine who had an idea that they might be related. conscientiousness is related to ME (as people don't pace but plod on). that's more or less the only personality factor linked. seems like a poorly designed study to me.
Ellen
Charles alerted me to this.
There is no link between ME and OCD. I've looked at this before. for one thing, no one has energy to spend on compulsions etc. Can't even imagine who had an idea that they might be related. conscientiousness is related to ME (as people don't pace but plod on). that's more or less the only personality factor linked. seems like a poorly designed study to me.
Ellen
RustyJ
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There's a cultural imbalance here with patients, students, and the charities, that allows these things to grow a life of their own.
Why aren't these people coming forward with studies about how the psychological elements of the illness are secondary, or that psychological labels have a negative impact on patients, or that there is no evidence to support GET as a treatment etc.
No we just get more budding SW's looking to make a mark in the world. I don't mean to attack the student, but the system that she is educated within, that she thinks this is a good idea.
The real disappointment is that despite all the history of being labelled psychiatric, patients are still lining up to take part in these surveys, even if they do have OCD, which of course is quite irrelevant to their illness.
In view of the blighted history with these sorts of things, both orgs should not have agreed to touch it, or to allow their name to it.
Such studies are begun with a premise.
Once upon a time there was a young psychiatrist who thought to link child abuse and me/cfs... oh, then another thought about linking depression and me/cfs. Yes both associations occur, but how has it been helpful to have these associations promoted?
Why aren't these people coming forward with studies about how the psychological elements of the illness are secondary, or that psychological labels have a negative impact on patients, or that there is no evidence to support GET as a treatment etc.
No we just get more budding SW's looking to make a mark in the world. I don't mean to attack the student, but the system that she is educated within, that she thinks this is a good idea.
The real disappointment is that despite all the history of being labelled psychiatric, patients are still lining up to take part in these surveys, even if they do have OCD, which of course is quite irrelevant to their illness.
In view of the blighted history with these sorts of things, both orgs should not have agreed to touch it, or to allow their name to it.
Such studies are begun with a premise.
Once upon a time there was a young psychiatrist who thought to link child abuse and me/cfs... oh, then another thought about linking depression and me/cfs. Yes both associations occur, but how has it been helpful to have these associations promoted?
Undisclosed
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This particular research study is part of an undergraduate degree and is not going to be published. I know this for a fact.
She might have been given permission to study the association between ME and OCD -- period. Her final grade might reflect the quality of her operational definitions, the quality of the survey, and whether it would be reproducible and valid. I remember doing such a project in Uni and were given permission to research a topic (we had to get permission re: ethics of the research). After that, we had to apply what we had learned throughout the course -- re: design, appropriate definitions, appropriate use of stats. Our supervisors didn't spoon feed us anything. My point is that members here are using a lot of speculation and giving a lot of negative criticism related to a situation that they can only guess about. This student is being criticized over some things that she has no control over and my concern is that she might be reading this because she is aware of Phoenix Rising. The last sentence is more than speculation.
When you respond here, please consider that the student might be reading this and then consider if you were this student, how some of these comments would make you feel.
She might have been given permission to study the association between ME and OCD -- period. Her final grade might reflect the quality of her operational definitions, the quality of the survey, and whether it would be reproducible and valid. I remember doing such a project in Uni and were given permission to research a topic (we had to get permission re: ethics of the research). After that, we had to apply what we had learned throughout the course -- re: design, appropriate definitions, appropriate use of stats. Our supervisors didn't spoon feed us anything. My point is that members here are using a lot of speculation and giving a lot of negative criticism related to a situation that they can only guess about. This student is being criticized over some things that she has no control over and my concern is that she might be reading this because she is aware of Phoenix Rising. The last sentence is more than speculation.
When you respond here, please consider that the student might be reading this and then consider if you were this student, how some of these comments would make you feel.