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Ampicillin, Probiotics and Group B Strep

Discussion in 'Antivirals, Antibiotics and Immune Modulators' started by awkwardlymodern, Feb 21, 2015.

  1. awkwardlymodern

    awkwardlymodern Forcing the past to blend with the future

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    Hello (new member here),

    I want to report a partial success with therapies intended to eradicate Streptococcus colonization.

    For some background, read the following and check out my illness onset story, which is in my signature:

    I was shocked to find out that Dr. Kenny de Meirleir shares my own theory about D-lactate encephalopathy. D-lactate encephalopathy shares a lot of similarities with ME/CFS. He and others have also observed that D-lactic acid-producing bacteria constitute an abnormally high proportion of intestinal flora in ME/CFS patients. Coincidence?

    Well, my illness started with a strep throat infection...

    And my most recent progression, which took away over half of the limited function I had left, coincided strangely with a weird vaginal infection. It started with itching, irritation and discharge, similar to an ordinary case of bacterial vaginosis. But this was different.

    The vaginal culture they took showed only one organism: Group B Streptococcus. GBS is a strange little bug, because although it is a leading cause of illness and death in neonates, it is considered a harmless "colonizer" in adult women, even though it is recognized to cause illness in the elderly and immunocompromised adults.

    The doctor who did the culture insisted that the GBS they found in my vagina is not an infection, cannot be causing my symptoms, and does not require antibiotics, because up to 30% of healthy adult women carry it in their vagina and gut without symptoms.

    Oddly, symptomatic GBS vaginal infection is not recognized by the medical community, even though GBS infection is recognized in just about all other tissues. This probably has to do more with distraction and the medical economy of attention than anything else.

    Because

    1) most vaginal GBS testing is done on pregnant women,
    2) most vaginal GBS carriers healthy and asymptomatic, and
    3) the bacteria pose a risk to their newborns,

    the very real possibility of vaginal GBS infection is overlooked. And I clearly had a symptomatic GBS vaginal infection. It was the only factor I know of that was associated with my relapse.

    So here's something to think about: if

    a) GBS is known to cause illness and infection in immunocompromised adults,
    b) 30% of adult females carry it, and
    c) ME/CFS patients are generally immunocompromised,

    I'd say that suggests GBS may be an overlooked contributing factor in ME/CFS, and that fits in with the D-lactic acid/Streptococcus/Enterococcus hypothesis. (Does anyone know which species of Streptococcus were found to colonize ME/CFS patients' intestines)?

    Here's the problem, both for healthy pregnant women and for ME/CFS patients trying to get strep out of their gut: it's almost impossible to do. GBS colonization in healthy pregnant women is generally not eradicated with antibiotics--it's too hard.

    That's where non-lactic acid producing probiotics should come in.

    I started on a 2-month course of ampicillin (1.5 g/day), AlliBiotic (an allicin/herbal supplement) and Prescript Assist, a soil-based probiotic containing non-lactic acid intestinal flora, and baking soda.

    After about a week, my vaginal symptoms are gone. My constipation and GERD are gone. My cardiovascular symptoms (POTS, blue fingernails, shortness of breath, heartbeat that is very hard and easy to feel) are vastly improved.

    Neuro symptoms not so much--I'm guessing that requires time and/or meds to stop the inflammation which may have initially resulted from the intestinal and vaginal "colonization," plus my pituitary may be permanently damaged from the inflammation (I have growth hormone deficiency, and correcting it will be my next treatment step).

    But what if having this strep stuff in our guts (and perhaps D-lactic acid-producing bacteria in general) is like someone with celiac disease loading up on pasta? And the D-lactic acid may not be the only problem. Streptococcus is one of the most immune-dysregulating pathogens known to mankind. Oddly this fact is underappreciated because the vast array of post-streptococcal syndromes, which affect practically every tissue, organ and system in the body in every way imaginable, has not been thoroughly catalogued or recognized.

    So the celiac analogy (gluten as the direct cause of an autoimmune disorder::streptococcus as the direct cause of a neuroinflammatory disorder) may be more apt than we realize. (The mechanism may or may not be autoimmune, but if not, it is likely something very similar.)

    It's at least worth considering.

    As a final observation, when I first got sick, I noticed a very odd smell on my palms. It smelled like soy sauce laced with copper and magnesium. The smell never completely went away, and I always smelled it more strongly during relapses. Shortly after starting my strep-eradication regimen, the smell completely vanished. My palms now smell just like any other part of my body. Weird.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2015
  2. shannah

    shannah Senior Member

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    Interesting...

    Can I ask what was your regime, how much baking soda were you using, any impact on energy levels and where do you plan to go from here?

    Thanks
     
  3. xrunner

    xrunner Senior Member

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    Surrey
    Interesting story.
    Except during the first few weeks when I got sick, I never had particular problems with my intestines. However, in the past I noticed that whenever I did something that acted by taking out bad bacteria and repopulated with good ones, something good would happen to my health, including some extraordinary and unexpected improvements. Obviously, all tests never showed anything abnormal about my gut.
    You may be on to something. Hope it works for you.
     
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  4. awkwardlymodern

    awkwardlymodern Forcing the past to blend with the future

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    I take every day:
    -1/2 tsp of baking soda
    -1.5 g ampicillin,
    -1/2 capsule of Prescript Assist,
    -Diflucan 200 mg every 3rd day,
    -2 capsules AlliBiotic
    -1 capsule of OrthoBiotic probiotic
    -1 mg Klonopin
    -1 capsule CurcuBrain
    -30 mg prednisolone
    -3 mg melatonin

    I am also taking the "critical cofactors" of Freddd's protocol in case I decide to try methylation after my infections are eradicated, and I will be receiving GH replacement as my next step.

    I haven't noticed an increase in energy yet, but my POTS and cardiovascular symptoms are improved, and as of today my brain fog seems to be improving. I've only been on this regimen for 8 days, so there's lots of time for more change...hopefully good!
     
  5. awkwardlymodern

    awkwardlymodern Forcing the past to blend with the future

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    I didn't have any issues with my intestines either when I first got sick. (and comparatively speaking, I still don't--minor constipation has been my only intestinal complaint). The strep colonization may be locally asymptomatic, especially if your immune system is not reacting appropriately. I think that was my initial problem: my strep throat formed a peritonsillar abscess without causing any noticeable symptoms until the bacterial toxins began to effect my brain, heart etc. If your immune system is not responding sufficiently to bacteria, this is the expected outcome :mad:
     
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  6. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    I'm really sorry to hear your story, I was in the CTY program as a kid. I took 10 days of rocephin and the heart infection I had seems to be cured (not less than 10 at 1g). I would question probiotics since you are putting billions of infectious bacteria into your body.
    High dose vitamin C and perhaps vitamin D could increase your immune response .
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9248859
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
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  7. awkwardlymodern

    awkwardlymodern Forcing the past to blend with the future

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    Haha! I was one of the kids they studied while developing the program--I was there at age 5, in 1986. When did you go? I wonder if anyone else here was there, we could have a CTYME support group :p I wouldn't be surprised, since ME/CFS is associated with glutamate excitotoxicity and hypersensitivity to glutamate (or high glutamatergic activity) is associated with improved intellectual function https://ilucretius.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/intelligence-the-g-factor-linus-pauling-and-glutamate/. I've always noticed that ME/CFS patients tend to be pretty smart, but maybe that's just selection bias...

    eh, as for probiotics, we already have trillions of bacteria in our gut, including pathogenic species, and always will. so it's a question of which bacteria and how many. We've got to manage our gut microbiome as well as we can. I do agree that different probiotics can be helpful or harmful to different individuals, so there's always a bit of a risk unfortunately.

    But it's a lot riskier to just take antibiotics without replacing intestinal flora--I did that once and ended up with a C. difficile overgrowth, that's a bad situation to get into. Vit. C and D are definitely good, I'm taking 4000mg C, 2000iu D+ daily sunlight exposure.
     
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  8. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    I think I went in 1991 and it was an amazing experience to study there:) I have friends who are academic researchers also now, I became a professor at 25. That's really fascinating about glutamate but there's a possibility that high levels could cause excitotoxicity.
    http://web.stanford.edu/group/hopes/cgi-bin/wordpress/2011/06/about-glutamate-toxicity/
    Yes clostridium difficile can be a serious illness causing death. I've tried probiotics but I'm not sure if it benefits GI function- I found much more benefit from antibiotics and medications but not proton pump inhibitors because they may reduce B12 absorption.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_difficile_colitis#Signs_and_symptoms
    Vit D at high doses can damage the kidneys, there is some benefit for the immune system and brain function.
    I also had ENT surgery tracheostomy, but they didn't remove my tonsils which they should have and botched the operation, I was really damaged, brain damaged and liver damaged by the surgery and think I had pernicious anemia
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
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  9. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    It was an overgrowth of Enterococcus faecalis and Streptococcus sanguinis in that KDM paper a few years back.
     
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  10. awkwardlymodern

    awkwardlymodern Forcing the past to blend with the future

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    Thanks! Very interesting, the plot thickens...

    In my worst attack of illness (2012) when I was mostly bedridden, not only did I have strep throat, but I had also not had my teeth cleaned professionally in three years (by far, the longest I'd gone without seeing a dentist).

    I noticed my mouth had this strange film that would not go away. It could be related or not, just speculating...but I improved by at least a point or two after finally having my teeth cleaned (with prophylactic antibiotics), and the film went away. This year has been a very bad year for me, and the last time I went to the dentist was two years ago! I finally have an appointment to get a cleaning on Thursday.

    I was speculating that the intestinal overgrowth in ME/CFS would most likely originate from a reservoir in the mouth that the immune system is, for whatever reason, allowing to overgrow...

    Hmm...Streptococcus sanguinis is listed on Wikipedia as a component of dental plaque! And enterococcus faecalis was apparently once classified as "group D strep," so there is some similarity...it's all these same type of organisms that our immune systems are allowing to overgrow. I wish I had more background in microbiology so I could do more than just speculate...time to do some reading :)
     
  11. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Very interesting. I can trace my earliest symptoms like reduced energy (before I had full-blown ME/CFS) to a strep infection (scarlet fever). I suffered from chronic strep throat, bronchitis and pneumonia issues for years until it all just stopped one day. Despite never getting another obvious infection again, I'm far less functional now than I was then.

    With regard to dental plaque, I experienced something unusual several months ago when I was taking a particular prebiotic (xylooligosaccharide aka XOS). Within a day or two my teeth (which have not been cleaned in years because I'm too sick to go to the dentist) became completely clean and smooth. I didn't brush them for a few days just to see what would happen and they stayed clean and there was no bad breath or anything. It was shocking. All my other symptoms improved too. Alas, after a few days I was slammed with VZV reactivation and I've had to stop XOS (too immunostimulatory for me at the present time). Very frustrating.

    By the way, the resistant starch thread contains lots of info on gut dysbiosis that may interest you.
     
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  12. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    is ampicillin a very effective antibiotic for streptococcus and broad spectrum and perhaps effective for gram negative infections? I would guess that the mechanism is different than cephalasporins and so it might work for resistant infections where other drugs would not?
     
  13. awkwardlymodern

    awkwardlymodern Forcing the past to blend with the future

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    That's fascinating that your illness also started with a strep infection. I'd be curious to know how many others had this trigger. What you describe does not surprise me at all, because I think our immune systems first become overactivated by the bacteria, and then later they shift into a pattern of specific underreactivity (to the bacteria) and general (B-cell?) overactivation, which causes the inflammation that destroys our health.

    The XOS story is pretty interesting too. I heard xylitol kills strep, and I'd be eating tons of it daily (and tons of resistant starch, as well...I am using a bit of green banana flour, that's all I can tolerate) if I didn't have a FODMAP problem :(

    I'll definitely check out the resistant starch thread.
     
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  14. awkwardlymodern

    awkwardlymodern Forcing the past to blend with the future

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    It's one of the two recommended antibiotics for Group B strep, and also effective against other strains of strep, and enterococci. It is fairly broad-spectrum, and also used against some gram negative bacteria. It doesn't seem as over-used as cephalosporins so it may have less antibiotic resistance. Not sure about the mechanism vs. cephalosporins, they are both bactericidal antibiotics :)
     
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  15. cafe

    cafe

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    I was never tested for any streptococcus species - but since I clearly respond in a very positive manner to ampicillin -who knows??? It´s not a "quick" response in 2-3 h due to antibiotics which have the potential to reduce neuroinflammation but takes 1-2 days to fully act. About 3 g of Ampicillin gets me from a 2-3 to about 6-7.

    My dental health is OK - but my tongue has been coated with a white film ever since I have become ill in June 2004. Antifungal treatment does nothing, whereas when taking Ampicillin the film disappears. Actually it is somehow an indicator of my physical health status....

    Azithromycin helps me as well.

    So far I felt best after the onset of this disease with 3 g of Ampicillin daily and Cimetidine (400 mg / day). Cimetidine alone would not help. As I was once tested positive for recurrent Eppstein-Barr this fits well with Jay Goldsteins thesis that Cimetidine helps with EBV. It seems as this is one of my problems - plus another one at least ...

    Unfortunately Cimetidine has become a prescription drug in my home country.
     
  16. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    actually azithromycin was terrible, it's a bacteriostatic so it seems to only stop the growth of bacteria. 6 weeks on daily azithromycin and I could-not-EXHALE-anymore 2 months later.

    I can't explain what happened, maybe the bacteria in my lungs were mycoplasma or something and the azithromycin did nothing but select for more virulent strains
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2015
  17. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Cimetidine is over the counter in many countries and can probably be easily purchased online or if you have a friend abroad they may be able to send some to you.

    Have you tried ranitidine (Zantac)? I think Dr Goldstein switched to ranitidine later because unlike cimetidine it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier so less side effects.

    @zzz
     
  18. cafe

    cafe

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    @Sidereal - yes I tried ranitidine (Zantac) but it did not help - actually I can not tell the difference taking it or not. This is kind of weired since if Cimetidine acted like Jay Goldstein proposes it should not have to have to cross the blood brain barrier if I remember correctly....?
     
  19. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Same here, ranitidine does nothing for me whereas cimetidine helps. Goldstein says ranitidine is better in his patients which confuses me.
     
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  20. physicsstudent13

    physicsstudent13 Senior Member

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    can you just mix the ampicillin with tap water and inject it? does it cause any liver damage or other side effects?
     

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