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Amalgam Tooth Fillings cause of ME ?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by AndrewB, Dec 1, 2011.

  1. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    Yeah because amalgam isn't chemically bonded to teeth you can get decay under them. My dad has his removed and a few had decay .. under them. Amalgam also has a different thermal diffusion coefficient, which means it transmits heat a lot faster than the surrounding tooth structure. So repeated foods or hot drinks of different temperatures can cause the amalgam to expand at a faster rate then the tooth causing cracking of the tooth itself. It's a really stupid material to still be using. It comes from an age of medicine where people were routinely bleed to let diseases out.

    Dentists sometimes used amalgam in the root tips when doing root canal. So instead of breathing in the mercury vapour 24/7, it just leaks out the end of the tooth and goes directly into your blood stream. The only way you can find out if you have amalgam at the end or the root is to see an x-ray ;p
    Helen likes this.
  2. Vitalic

    Vitalic Senior Member

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    My illness actually started after I had a root canal in 2009, for a long time I ignored the correlation because it seemed like the symptoms did not match up, and also I suspected a viral influence due to the fact I had a severe flu-like illness (as many seem to do) immediately preceding onset. A recent CT scan (see below) showed potential residual periapical disease. I've had a lot of diagnostic testing done and whilst there is substantial evidence of gut dysbiosis and autonomic dysfunction my viral titres and pathology tests are clear, so this would appear to be the only hope left in terms of a clear-cut pathophysiology. The only problem is conventional endodontics doesn't have the tools at its disposal to give a confident diagnosis unless the clinical signs are unambiguous. I've seen a top periodontist at the UCH in London and their advice was essentially to monitor the situation, which puts me in a rather difficult position.

    [​IMG]
  3. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    Get the tooth removed, and all the bone from around the tooth cut away. It may sound extreme, but if you could see what root canal teeth do to the surrounding bone you would never get one. I had a CT scan done of my jaw also but can't read it enough to show any problems. But the MRI showed a 2cm long hole. Different imaging techniques gives vastly different results with bone anomalies. You can also get thermal imagine done on your face, it shows hotspots on your jaw line where infection is. Strangely vets use this technique to find infections in horses, but I guess regular dentists overlook this valuable tool.

    Here's my CT scan.
    [​IMG]
    See any problems there ? I couldn't personally. Definition is too poor.
    MRI on the other hand found this.
    [​IMG]

    Then when they opened it up .. a freaking giant hole, with a stinky infection inside. I had to pay privately to get this done. Incredibly the 'experts' at the hospital could see nothing wrong with the 2cm anomolie on the MRI.
    [​IMG]
    Helen likes this.
  4. Vitalic

    Vitalic Senior Member

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    It's quite remarkable that they couldn't detect that. Perhaps it's just the digital quality but your CT scans look fairly low resolution, perhaps if you'd had the type of CT scan I had done (3D Cone Beam) it would have showed up, the level of detail in them was actually quite impressive. The problem as I understand it though is that the abnormalities shown in my scans could either be caused by residual infection or bone scar formation. Bone scar formation is a natural reaction to the root canal and would not normally be suggestive of a root canal failure, the endodontist I saw said that if you took a cross-section of people that have had root canals performed such bone anomalies would be detected in a relatively high percentage of cases. In your case the MRI presented a clear abnormality that provided sufficient grounds for surgery, however in my case I have a root canal that is of high technical quality and has not caused sufficient pain to indicate the type of severe infection that would be required to cause the neurological symptoms I suffer from (at least that is my impression, I assume you had some clinical signs that led you to suspect dento-facial infection as a cause?)

    I feel if there was an additional line of evidence that suggested infection then my remaining reservations about having surgery would be allayed, so the thermal imaging you mentioned could be quite an interesting route, I've also heard of ultrasound techniques that can be used to measure blood flow within the tooth. It is quite a big decision, especially financially as well as the cosmetic implications, but if there is even a small chance it could help me recover then it has to be worth it. I spoke to a so-called hollistic (wish they wouldn't use this label) dentist who did say he has had numerous patients who have fully recovered from chronic fatigue after a single extraction, but it's hard to take anything from such anecdotal reports when every charlatan claims to have cured this disease.
  5. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    That CT scan is a 3d cone beam scan. It was done by a dentist with his new high tech bit of kit. Perhaps a hospital CT scan would have given better results, but they use vastly more radiation when imaging. The fact is, if they can't find a 2cm long hole in my jaw with CT and X-ray, what possible hope is there of finding smaller problems in people ? It's well known on x-ray you have to have at least 50% of bone destruction before often anything is visible on the x-ray. One of the problems with this type of bone infection is, it effects the marrow spaces in the bone, which never show up on x-ray anyway.

    That's because they are all infected ! The reason is simple.
    [​IMG]

    Dentists go to great effort to clean and sterilise the root canal. Fine, but what about the dentine ? There's something like 2 miles of tubes to clean out and sterilise. There is currently no technique shown in the medical literature which can fully sterilise these. Once the blood supply to the tooth is gone anaerobic bacteria (think gangrene) are now free to multiply totally unhindered. In experiments in the 20's done by Weston price they injected die into the teeth at pressure, and it came out on the surface of the tooth. Travelled through the dentine tubules and diffused through the cementum matrix on the surface of the tooth. The same happens in a dead tooth, except with the toxins from the bacteria. This is why root canal teeth frequently rot peoples jaw bones. It may take a while but generally that's the end result. It's also been known since forever this is what happens, but root canals are cash cows. Dentists wouldn't want to give them up, and patients aren't happy about losing teeth either. The problem is informed consent, most people have no idea they have mini toxic waste factories producing flat out 24/7 in their jawbones.

    Dead bone feels no pain ! My 2cm long infection didn't hurt at all. My symptoms were lymph node pain in my neck and throat. It was just a question of finding the source of the problem. Process of elimination.

    Yeah there are a few dentists in the world with cavitat scanners. They are most impressive, but theres only 1 in the UK. Not much good recommending patients go find a dentist with one. Plus from my own experience MRI is more accurate. That 2cm hole failed to show on cavitat, that's why I got the MRI done, basically out of sheer desperation. There's only so long you can live with an infection that size. Cavitat does work well though with deeper problems. But the company has gone bankrupt, forced out by legal costs against corrupt dental organisations.

    I've seen a lot of people fight to hold onto dead teeth, and when they finally agree to get them removed they come out black and stinking. And they go, omg I couldn't believe I was living with that infection so long. I've also seen peoples fibro pain go almost next day when they've had a dead tooth removed, and the bone surgically clean. Suddenly that 'poisoned' feeling is gone.
    Helen likes this.
  6. Vitalic

    Vitalic Senior Member

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    Intriguing stuff, although I have read the history of Cavitat and I don't think it was quite as one-sided as you suggest. There are many cases where dentists on the other side of the spectrum have advised people to get invasive and unnecessary treatment based on flimsy evidence. I feel you have to be sceptical about a dentist that would proscribe homeopathic remedies over antibiotics for example. I am more and more convinced though that this is a contributing factor to my illness, now I just need to work out the steps to take going forward.
  7. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    In the legal case against cavitat, quackwatch tried to argue the condition NICO simply does not exist, which given my pictures above, is clearly absurd. The company was basically bankrupted fighting legal costs, even though they won the counter suit. A real shame. The device is accurate, it was FDA approved and shown to be accurate with peer review. But it doesn't always find problems. If it says a problem is there, it's there, but the reverse is not always true. There is MRI, but thats not something a dentist can have in his surgery, unless hes a millionaire :p
  8. greysonjames37

    greysonjames37

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    Quackwatch articles come across as very emotional. Do you have some other sources for reference?
  9. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    Thanks Wayne,

    My dentist would never put a crown over an amalgam as he feels like that is defeating the purpose. He has had to down pretty deep to get enough tooth to put a crown on as he does not like putting a post in, so I have been lucky from that standpoint. I get cavitys under my crowns and fillings all the time. I can usually tell it is there cause I have terribly sensitive teeth. If your gums recede just a little bit and leaves that gap at the bottom of the crown you can just about bet it will get a cavity under it. I have told my dentist before to pull a crown off because I felt like there was a cavity under it and he had no problem doing it. One time it did have cavity, another time he pulled one and there was nothing wrong and cleaned it up and re-applied the crown and it has been fine and another time the remaining tooth that he made his post out of had fractures in it from me gritting my teeth (I have a night guard now). The last one is the one he had to go way down to get more tooth to put crown on and had to burn my gum back a little bit so the crown would fit. I have 3 more teeth that need crowns on them when they pull the amalgam out cause they literally cannot put any more amalgam in them.
  10. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    This is somewhat antecdotal but my BIL is a hematologist/oncologist. I asked him this very question and he said that the risks of getting the amagaman fillings removed outweighs any benefits as it's a very difficult procedure and even with an experienced dentist you are likely to be exposed to the mercury fumes during removal.

    An interesting aside is that he said that you should not consume more than 2-3 meals per week that inclucdes fish, especially canned tuna and says that is a more likely to give ou mercury poisoning.

    This was several years ago and I have heard (again antecdotal) that some fish have more mercury than others.

    Dang, I love fish.

    Barb C.:>)
  11. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    Small fish at the bottom of the food chain is apparently the best bet, and top-feeders particularly swordfish and similar to be avoided.
    jeffrez likes this.
  12. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    I haven't followed this thread closely so could be repeating things, but if anyone is interested in 'interplay' between viruses/pathogens and environmental toxins, including mercury, look up research by Swedish group led by Ilback. VERY interesting stuff, includes studies on 'behaviours' of infectious agents (in culture/tissue) in the absence and presence of mercury and such, also the other way round - absorption and tissue/organ distribution of mercury etc in animals in presence (or absence) of chronic infections. It may or may not be relevant to ME/CFS, but extremely interesting stuff just the same... There were few other groups, one from Denmark I think, doing similar research, but most is by Ilback at al, Karolinska Institute if I remember correctly.
  13. I had all my amalgams removed 10 years ago by a Dentist that practiced a holistic approach. If you can find a dentist that uses the highest possible safety standards any additional mercury poisoning can be reduced to a very low risk. This should be done by the Dentist damming around the teeth being worked on preventing any vapours or amalgam fragments going down the wind pipe or gullet. You the Dentist & Nurse should be on an oxygen supply and in a well ventilated room during the procedure.
    On the removal of dead bone material left from wisdom teeth and the removal of root canal/crowned teeth I’m still trying to make a decision on that it’s a big call and big cost for maybe very little or no improvement in the ME/CFS, Questions I have:
    1. Why have we not been told that this is the thing to do by Doctors like Klimas, Peterson, Bateman, and De Meirleir or have they?
    2. We know we have a compromised immune system/Impaired functioning of the HPA axis. Certainly the removal of any infections in our bodies is a good thing but are we just chasing our tails.
    3. I’ve heard some people that have the procedure get positive results and on the other side very little to no improvement at all. (Perhaps a pole on this would be good)
    4. Also heard some patients in England have had not just root canals removed but all the teeth removed and had no improvements at all to their ME/CFS.
    5. This is a big money spinner for the Dentists, first you get the root canal/crowning then the removal to be then given the options of bridging/Implants and Plates, bridging you are crowning the teeth ether side and the process starts again. Big $$$$
    6. I still have not got the name of the book but my Dentist/Doctor says there is one on a guy getting good results in laser treatments of minor infections in the gums and teeth.
    I’ve had a cavitat scan but nothing really is jumping out at me as being a big problem, still need to have a MRI of my jaw before I go any further I can think of nothing worse than having deep surgery on the back of the jaw to get nerve damage causing numbness of the lower lip and still no improvements with the ME/CFS.
    If Dr Klimas has said removing root canal/crowned teeth and dead bone in the jaw is the thing to do. If someone knows please tell me and I will have this procedure done ASAP

    All the best Scott
  14. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    That's actually not true. An experienced dentist can remove amalgams safely. My dentist in fact had a very powerful suction device that pulled all fumes while doing the removal and vented them to the outside. The exposure to me was minimal - basically nil. In the hands of a dentist who is experienced & knowledgeable about the dangers of mercury, the pros of having mercury amalgams removed - a known poison and neurotoxin - far, far outweighs the cons. Why anyone would argue for keeping a known poison inside one's body is a mystery - it just represents more of the ADA-type dangerous propaganda and distortions of the truth that we've been subjected to ever since they decided to put dangerous toxins into people's mouths.
  15. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    dental amalgam is a kind of suicidal madness
  16. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    I may have not been clear. My BIL was saying "IF" amalgams were a problem, not that he believes they are a problem.

    The following is a literature review by the ADA showing that the science is not there to show any the evidence is just not there that amalgams are dangerous. Lest, you start into the propaganda, distortion issue regarding the ADA, I could make an argument that the dentists who remove these amalgams also have a nefarious agenda and are in it for the money as a dentist can make a lot more money by replacing amalgams. I don't think either statement is true and it's a bit more complicated than that.

    http://www.ada.org/sections/professionalResources/pdfs/amalgam_literature_review_1009.pdf

    But it's a personal choice. My money is very tight being on disability and I chose not to get mine removed , if I do have any, which I suspect I probably do. What other's choose, is their choice. and I will defend that choice. But that's a topic for another thread, eh?

    Barb C.:>)
  17. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    The ADA maintained until 1984 that mercury is not released from amalgam. The position is so clearly absurd, given the fact it's possible to see mercury vapour being released.
    Helen and jeffrez like this.
  18. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    But amalgams very often are a problem, Barb, so I think your BIL probably isn't fully informed on the issue. He's an oncologist? I'm sure he's a great doctor, but it doesn't seem as if he really knows all the science regarding the dangers of mercury amalgams.

    The FDA knows they're toxic, Congress knows, it's in the congressional testimony, it's a scientific fact that mercury is a bio and neuro toxin and it's a fact that mercury leaches off of amalgam fillings. FDA doesn't want major liability issues, so they continue to deny it's anything but benign, but that defies common sense as well as scientific sense.

    How about lead? Would you like lead fillings? Probably not, enough said. ; -)
  19. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    Ah, I see you must be talking about this "famous" video.'
    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/mercury-must-be-bad-if-not-in-vaccines-in-teeth/

    Barb C.:>)
  20. barbc56

    barbc56 Senior Member

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    quote="jeffrez, post: 279795, member: 677"][/quote]
    Of course mercury is a bio and neuro toxin. But we are talking about minute amounts of mercury. Read the above article I cited and you will see they are saying that the amount is trivial and you breath most of it out of your mouth. Amagman releasing mercury is not the same as a toxic waste dump which is serious.

    One person's common sense is another's nonsense. Just because something “makes sense” doesn't make it necessarily true. You can believe what you want but you can't say your opinion is the same as what the science is showing. Now we could just throw all this science out the window and go back to bloodletting as at one time the procedure did indeed “made sense”.
    Barb C.:>)

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