Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by Countrygirl, Apr 2, 2014.
I'm glad this problem is taken more seriously. The idealization of vaccines in the media is so bad that it's difficult to have a normal discussion about usefulness and side effects.
@Countrygirl I've been following Yehuda Shoenfeld line of work for a number of years now, and his unifying theory regarding all autoimmune disorders makes very much sense.
In light of all that has been recently unearthed through the clinical trials in Norway by Fluge and Mella and the possible autoimmune cascade involved in the development of ME I'm following Dr. Shoenfeld and Dr. Shaw even more closely.
As a longtime ME sufferer I think that a lot of what they say makes sense, but I'm always on the defense when the concept of autoimmunity is linked to vaccines. As @A.B. has rightly said, the subject is a highly slippery one.
It's very possible that vaccines per se are not the real culprit but adjuvants such as aluminum are.
As a personal note I can say that if there's one thing I regret is to have reluctantly "accepted" the Hep B vaccine to be administered at just a few months old to my child; back then the talk was only about the mercury/thimerosal which by that time had been removed from the market (at least here in the US).
I think that PWME have to be extra careful about many sources such as specific vaccines to potentially trigger autoimmunity.
A highly regarded ME doctor has told me that such is the case with the hepatitis B and HPV vaccines; he specifically said to stay away from those.
What might be sold as a benefit for the greatest good might not be of benefit for a large portion of the population and if we read the most recent epidemiological reports, autoimmune diseases are becoming the primary type of health issues around the world.
There might be a link between AI and the rampant administration of vaccines and I'd like to live long enough to see this clearly.
But then again there are many other important things that need to be seen clearly in the ME/CFS arena ...
Thanks for posting this @Countrygirl.
This I found very significant:
Sounds like this might have the potential for causing untoward immunomodulatory effects.
The reason the aluminum hydroxide adjuvant is included in vaccines is to stimulate the immune response, so that the immune system properly reacts to the killed or attenuated microbes placed in the vaccine. If you don't have an adjuvant, the vaccine may not "take", because the immune system does not fully respond, and so you don't get protection.
However, surprisingly, the actual mechanism by which aluminum hydroxide stimulates the immune response has only recently been discovered: it turns out that aluminum hydroxide raises levels of uric acid, which is an immuno-stimulant (uric acid acts as a danger signal in the body, and the immune system goes into action when it sees uric acid).†
So if it is only uric acid that is required to suitably stimulate the immune system, I wonder if it would be possible to use the supplement inosine instead, which is known to raise uric acid, say taken orally a few hours or days before the vaccine injection? Then you might not need to put adjuvants into the vaccine. As well as inosine, chlorella and inositol also raise uric acid. I wonder if you might be able to give one or more of these supplements orally before the vaccination, in order to raise uric acid, so that the vaccine "takes".
Such supplements would not deposit themselves in macrophages, as aluminum appears to do
Many people with ME already have very high uric acid. Why add more? I was suspected of having gout for a long time.
Narcolepsy is an example of autoimmune disease that is triggered by a viral component of the flu vaccine. There was a thread on this few months ago...
I couldn't find any cases of individuals who developed narcolepsy as a result of just catching regular influenza virus and coming down with the flu; so if we assume that narcolepsy may occasionally arise from the influenza vaccine, but not from catching influenza virus in the wild, then this perhaps suggests that the aluminum hydroxide adjuvant may also play a role in precipitating narcolepsy, in combination with the viral component of the vaccine.
The aluminum hydroxide adjuvant, as well as boosting uric acid levels (and being deposited in macrophages for up to a year, as mentioned above), also ramps up the Th2 immune response more than the Th1 response. So conceivably, it could be this immunomodulatory action of the aluminum hydroxide adjuvant that is also a factor in triggering narcolepsy.
Interestingly, researchers want to find a new adjuvant that stimulates the Th1 response. Such an adjuvant would be more appropriate for use in viral vaccines, as of course Th1 is the immune response you need for viruses. Aluminum hydroxide boosts Th2 more than Th1, so this is more appropriate for use in bacterial vaccines.
Yes it could be the case, but also the absence of (reported and documented) narcolepsy cases following wild flu virus could be to do with route of delivery - by administering vaccine straight into bloodstream the normal/usual immune responses are bypassed.
Having said that there are some scattered reports of narcolepsy associated with infections, including bacterial ones
I suspect that the adjuvants are responsible for problems. They are the same class of substances used to induce autoimmunity in animal experiments. The assumption is that they are safe at lower doses, but this isn't always correct as work by Shoenfeld and others is showing. That some people react much more sensibly to certain substance than the average person is hardly a new concept.
That is a really good point. I never thought about that before, or came across such a suggestion. Very interesting.
It makes a lot of sense, since most viruses in circulation enter the body via the respiratory or gastrointestinal route, where they first encounter the mucous membranes and the epithelial barrier. I imagine that the immune responses within the mucous membranes and the epithelial barrier may do a good job of containing the viral infection for some hours, or even days, before the virus is able to break through into the body. This initial containment of the virus may conceivably give the immune system enough time to put the whole body on full alert, so that the body is then prepared for the virus, when that infection does finally penetrate deeper into the body.
However, if you inject the virus directly into the bloodstream, you may bypass any such preparation.
Perhaps vaccines might advantageously be developed for sublingual administration, ie, onto the mucous membranes and the epithelial barrier in the mouth. I just found this 2011 paper, which says:
Did he say why these ones specifically?
I'm pretty sure I had a Hep B one not long before I got ill.
Absolutely spot on @A.B.!
PWME/CFS might in fact hyper react to the adjuvant and the dose that is reputed as "safe"for a human being might have nothing to do, proportionally wise, with the dose given to lab animals in order to provoke an autoimmune reaction.
Also human beings live in the real world and are constantly encountering pathogens and interacting with their environments, unlike lab rats or mice.
Not to think and take into serious considerations the different variables is very ignorant and reductionistic on the part of the so called researchers.
He didn't articulate specifically, but said something about the immunogenicity of those two specific vaccines, particularly for the Hep B.
He added that he is personally waiting to give those two to his kids.
When we talked about the HPV vaccine, he agreed with me that in light of its more recent introduction on the market and several reports of severe reactions, a wait and see approach coupled with good sexual education (=protection,protection,protection) and regular (ideally free) pap smear check ups would be the best choice. Even more so in a case of a young person with suspected ME/CFS or with a family history of it and/or other autoimmune diseases.
I personally think that we wouldn't need to introduce the HPV vaccine in the already cramped vaccine schedule for young females (by the way young boys can get inoculated too, but I'm afraid that most aren't even informed by their pediatricians and/or parents) if we were a bit more open minded and relaxed and if there was some real communication going on between patients, doctors, parents, kids and the whole society .
On top of it the HPV vaccine is active against only two strains of carcinogenic Human Papilloma Viruses and there are studies that have found a clear causal link and interactions between cervical cancers HPV and HHV6.
I actually know a couple of people who developed a severe reaction, back in 2011, after getting the nasal flu vaccine.
The route of administration, if I remember well, dictates the type of vaccine: live virus vs. inactivated.
Live virus is possibly the most capable of triggering an hyper or wrong immune response.
May I remind you that many PWME, at least all the ones born until the late sixties, were vaccinated with the oral polio vaccine, the one that contained live virus and consequently could potentially cause a polio infection with all the dreadful consequences.
My mom always told me about the precautions she would have to take right after I was administered a dose of anti-polio vaccine, such as refrain me from putting my hands in my mouth. I still wonder how she succeeded in doing that, especially when I was a little tot and a chronic thumb sucker !
Maybe she got so traumatized by being the one to find her sister's 4 months old boy completely limp in his cradle one morning and seeing him die a day later, due to polio (at the time,the vaccine was awaiting to be approved by the Italian Health Department).
This is to say that vaccines have been and still continue to be a great medical accomplishment, but we have to use caution with certain groups of the population and weight the possible risks against the benefits.
I really hope this discussion can come out of the "fringe" and gain traction in the mainstream. The denial and cover-up has, and continues to be, disastrous.
I had no idea they had started giving *infants* hep B vaccine! In my day that was only offered if you were travelling to some remote country. Why on earth give that to a baby, who has pretty much NO chance of contracting it? That's insanity.
Well at @leela that was exactly my point when I was told by my child pediatrician that at the tender age of two months she was going to get a Hep B vaccine!!!
It didn't help that I told her that she was far from being an at risk infant or toddler and that both parents were living a healthy and clean life and were both Hep B negative!
I think that she looked at me condescendingly and said that that was the regular vaccine schedule, leaving me feeling like a bad mother ...
I've to admit that I've learned to be a bit more proactive since then, but I wish I knew better.
Dr Charles Shepherd of the ME Association UK says that the vaccines most linked to triggering ME/CFS are tetanus, typhoid, influenza, and hepatitis B. More rarely he says hepatitis A (using immunoglobulin), polio, or rubella vaccine can trigger ME/CFS. Ref: here.
I've read bad things (sorry, too early for reference-searching) about the batches of oral polio booster that were given in or near my generation. (I remember getting mine--small plastic squeeze-sacs of red liquid). It would make especial sense since ME has much in common with polio.
The sad thing about the development of the polio vaccine was that although researchers were aware of poliovirus as the causative agent of poliomyelitis, two other types of virus — Coxsackie virus and echovirus — that were identified during the polio vaccine research were not considered for inclusion in the polio vaccine, because these viruses did not routinely cause paralysis as poliovirus did.
Now of course we know that these two enterovirus, Coxsackie virus and echovirus, are strongly linked to ME/CFS.
If a vaccine has been developed for Coxsackie virus and echovirus too, this would have very likely prevented all cases of enterovirus-linked ME/CFS (which Dr Chia's data suggests causes the bulk of ME/CFS cases †).
It is still not to late to develop a Coxsackie virus and echovirus vaccine, and indeed, this vaccine really should be developed soon. Such a vaccine would protect millions of people from the life-destroying effects of enterovirus-associated ME/CFS. It would also protect millions from sudden unexpected death and heart attach, which are also strongly linked to these viruses. † †
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