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Alternatives to Arginine to raise Nitric Oxide

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by ebethc, Nov 1, 2014.

  1. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    Arginine REALLY seemed to help my brain fog, I felt motivated & focused while I was taking it in September. It was a big breakthrough for me... However, I have EBV and after taking it for 3-4 weeks, I crashed in October. Fatigue, very bad inflammation...bedridden. I think the Arginine - Lysine balance was out of whack, and the EBV virus was re-activated.

    Is there a way to take Arginine without this happening? ie, if i take a multi-amino, or additional Lysine, can I avoid this problem?j

    Is there another way to raise Nitric Oxide to get the same effect? I take Citrulline, but it doesn't have the same effect.

    thanks.
     
  2. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Methyl b12 helps with Nitric Oxide I believe, careful not to take Hydroxy b12 though it has the opposite effect.
     
    ebethc likes this.
  3. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I'd been using ornithine, arginine, citrulline, lysine in varying doses, according to my self-testing. However, after seeing the thread linked below, I started using malic acid. this has replaced all the others for me. Every time I ask my body whether it wants any of the others, it gives me a 'no'. You'll see a diagram, explanation for malic. It seems to act much earlier in the cycle.
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/new-inexpensive-cbs-ammonia-fix.31835/
     
    ebethc likes this.
  4. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @Martial - thanks! Will AdenoB12 work? Also, how do you know if you can take M-B12? I am confused about when you can "tolerate" methyl groups since I read so many comments about tolerating methyls & doing things in sequence..I don't know if it's the brain fog or what, but I'm still not sure about sequencing methyls..

    thanks for the heads up re H-B12.
     
  5. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @ahmo - is magnesium malate the same as malic acid?
    Are pills okay, or do you have to do the homemade liposomal malic acid to get results? Any brand you recommend?
    The malate replaces ALL those aminos?
    Does the malate help both ammonia AND boost nitric oxide?

    thanks!
     
  6. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Mg malate contains malic, it's the form of Mg I've returned to. I still need extra malic acid for this ammonia reduction. The other folks in the thread I linked are using malic capsules, I've gotten bulk malic really cheaply in Aus. I think the caps I started w/ are Source Naturals, from iherb. I'm using it in my footbaths, which is how I take my K+, aminos, some other minerals. So, similar to liposomal.But aaron, in the thread, is taking it orally.

    Yes, the malic has replaced all those other things for me. Look at the diagram in that thread, you'll see that the malic appears at a higher place in the cycle. Prior to malic, I self-tested for my doses, had initially started w/ lysine, later added ornithine, then arginine, and last I discovered and added citrulline. Citrulline I tended to only use 1/8 tsp, arginine 1/4 tsp, ornithine and lysine 1/2 tsp. I didn't always test + for all of them. All these supps are now in my stash of things I'm not using. Sorry, I don't have enough understanding of nitric oxide to answer, this might be buried in the same thread, otherwise someone w/ better understanding will have to help here.;)
     
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  7. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    I found this by @Dr. Frost on this thread: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-too-little-and-just-right.33432/#post-516847
    "Arginine is a great example of this: too little and you cannot make enough nitric oxide in your blood. But too much arginine, and it oxidizes BH4 and turns off nitric oxide synthase, causing NO levels to plummet... and what's more, also runs around creating peroxide radicals which viciously attack your cardiovascular and nervous systems. But if you can balance on the knife-edge of "just right", you get to have energy and avoid horrible neural and heart issues."
     
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  8. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    In this case wouldn't it just be ideal to eat a diet that is high in arginine without over doing it on supplements? Just using sources like fish?
     
  9. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Nitric oxide affects so many things, including oxygen supply to tissues, inflammation, and the real kicker, its a neurotransmitter. We do not yet fully understand everything it can do.

    It is highly likely that adenosyl B12 will, at least in a subset, improve NO availability.
     
  10. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Aha! I've been suspecting that AdoB12 was doing a lot for my mood, and reducing inflammation. Something has been helping with both, and it's something I wasn't taking when I first tried MeB12 on its own. That was before I stumbled upon Freddd's protocol.
    I've got three homozygous NOS2 snps and having lots of trouble with ammonia & sulfur:
    NOS2 rs2274894 TT = +/+
    NOS2 rs2248814 AA = +/+
    NOS2 rs3729508 TT = +/+​
     
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  11. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Something I am dredging up from my past, high dose pycnogenol is known to raise nitric oxide, if I recall correctly. Its also a potent antioxidant. The dosage alters the effect. Its been a long time since I read up on this, so I no longer recall the optimal dose. It might be worth looking into.
     
    Isaiah 58:11 likes this.
  12. perchance dreamer

    perchance dreamer Senior Member

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    Isaiah 58:11 and adreno like this.
  13. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

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    Some one on this forum recommended a Glycine Propionyl-L-Carnitine (GPLC) supplement to increase NO and I can attest that it worked. It's not too cost-effective. Nitroglycerin sounds awesome
     
  14. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    I've had good effects from high dose pycnogenol
     
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  15. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I fizzed on high dose pycnogenol. Like I had mainlined a liter of soda water into my gut area, and it was spreading out through my body. It was so intense it was not pleasant, but after the fizzing died I felt really good.
     
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  16. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Didn't this thread consist of three pages yesterday? Can everyone else see all three, is it just my phone that's playing up?

    @alex3619 how much were you taking?

    Has the benefit continued?
     
  17. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @knackers323 don't know about yesterday, but only one page on my computer now.
     
  18. Kina

    Kina

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    @knackers323 -- Yes it did. We had a request to split the thread, the split posts can be found here
     
  19. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    This is just one possibility, but it seems clear from cardiovascular research that attempting to supplement arginine without maintaining BH4 levels is very likely to fail. (Without sufficient BH4, greater amounts of arginine increase decoupling of nitric oxide synthase resulting in production of damaging superoxide and peroxynitrite, as noted in the quote by @picante.)

    It doesn't work to supplement significant amounts of BH4 directly, since this results in large amounts of oxidized BH4 (i.e., BH2), and the ratio of BH4 to BH2 is actually as important as the absolute amount of BH4 (because DHFR, which recycles BH2, becomes impaired at lower ratios).

    Rather, the best option (in addition to avoiding inhibitors of DHFR like green tea and folic acid), may be to use methylfolate, which acts as a peroxynitrite scavenger that is particularly beneficial for maintaining BH4 and preventing decoupling of NOS.

    So if by chance you were taking the arginine prior to using methylfolate, it might be worth a redo to combine the two at the same time. As a rough best guess (this is just an idea I have), a person might start with somewhere on the order of a ratio of 1mg of methylfolate for every 1g of arginine supplemented and adjust either or both of these up or down. I'm guessing this will depend on a person's overall antioxidant status, as well as how much methylation a person can tolerate. (Lower amounts are better to start with of course.)

    Some in vitro research indicates that increasing nitric oxide (via iNOS/NOS2) might possibly be beneficial with respect to EBV (e.g., see the two articles here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/nos2-snps-up-or-down.34511/#post-537372).
     
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  20. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @nandixon - Great insight... I'm really confounded by methylfolate because I feel NOTHING when taking it, so maybe the combo of methylfolate and arginine is best... Don't you have to take M-B12 w methylfolate? isn't that a "cardinal rule"? if so, what is the ratio of methylfolate to m-b12?

    What about taking Lysine w the arginine-methylfolate combo.. Lysine may offset any EBV problems caused by arginine... if so, what should the ratio be between lysine-argininet?

    thanks
     
    Gondwanaland likes this.

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