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Alternative Ways of Administering High Dose Vitamin B12

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Hip, Apr 23, 2011.

  1. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I have been experimenting with some alternative methods of absorbing high doses of vitamin B12 transdermally across the skin, and thought I might list these methods for everyone's benefit. Below is a list of various skin areas on your body that you can consider using experimentally to absorb vitamin B12 transdermally with high efficiency.

    Some methods involve body parts that you don't normally talk about in polite company, but hey, we are all friends here.

    I was experimenting with 3 different physical formulations of vitamin B12 in these transdermal skin absorption experiments:

    B12 tablets 5 mg
    B12 powder (simply made from one or two of the above 5 mg B12 tablets crushed under a tablespoon)
    B12 liquid drops, containing 1,000 mcg B12 per liquid drop.


    Note

    Some skin areas are a little experimental, and naturally you should do your own research and/or consult with your doctor before going ahead. In other words, make sure you know that no harm will come from using any of the suggestions below. It is possible that certain ingredients in a B12 formulation, or the B12 itself, may cause skin irritation or other problems in these skin areas. For example: B12 scavenges nitric oxide, and since nitric oxide is an antibacterial naturally secreted by mucous membranes, excessive 24 hour application of B12 to a mucous membrane may reduce nitric oxide levels enough to allow bacteria to flourish more, or cause some temporary imbalance in mucous membrane flora. Note also that citric acid-containing B12 formulations used orally can erode tooth enamel.


    B12 Administration Techniques: on Mucous Membranes

    Intranasal. Placing some liquid B12 into your mucous membrane-lined nasal cavity, using a dropper pipette. You need to place the tip of the pipette inside the openings to the nasal cavity; these openings are found at the end of each nostril. Lying down on your back and tilting your head backwards while administering allows the B12 drops to better enter the nasal cavity. Note: test any B12 liquid on your tongue first, and if there is any harshness or acidic sharpness to the taste, it may sting once in the nasal cavity. If it passes the tongue sharpness test, then next test a small amount in the nose, to ensure it does not sting, before taking a larger dose.

    Intranasal. Snorting up powder from a finely crushed B12 tablet via a drinking straw. (Best not performed outside a police department). Again, if the powder tastes acidic, it may sting the nose. Test a small amount of powder in the nose first, to ensure it does not sting.

    On upper gums, using either a B12 tablet, B12 powder, or B12 drops. There is a reasonably large area of mucous membranes on the upper gums and inner cheeks that can absorb the B12. Try to let the B12 slowly absorb in this area over an hour or so. The advantage of this upper gums/cheeks area is that the B12 will not be washed away by saliva. This method I learnt from Freddd. Note that B12 formulations containing citric acid (and/or other acids) can erode tooth enamel.

    Sublingual, using either B12 powder or B12 drops. Saliva may wash away the B12 before it has a chance to absorb through the sublingual mucous membranes. However, it is possible to gently massage in the B12 into the mucous membranes using your finger tip for a few minutes, to mechanically aid absorption.

    Intraurethral using liquid B12 drops from a dropper pipette. An unusual but probably viable method. B12 is seemingly very quickly absorbed in the urethra (in that no red color from the B12 is seen during urination a few hours later). The skin lining the urethra is a mucous membrane. The male urethra is around 18 cm long; the female urethra is around 4 cm long. B12 drops may sting if the formulation is too acidic, but the urethral mucous membranes are not quite as sensitive as the nasal mucous membranes. The glans is also a mucous membrane.

    Intravaginal pessary. Such pessaries are a well-known and highly effective means of absorbing drugs or supplements.

    Rectal suppository. A B12 tablet can be placed in the rectum as a suppository, just using some hand cream, say, for lubrication. The rectum is lined with mucous membranes, and will absorb B12 well. You may be able to get your pharmacy to compound up some purpose-made B12 suppositories.

    Intrasinus administration. Vitamin B12 powder or B12 drops dissolved in mildly saline water, and administered into nasal and sinus cavities via nasal irrigation (yoga neti). Both the nasal and sinus cavities are lined with mucous membranes. Very wasteful, as much of the administered liquid tends to drip out of the nose.



    B12 Administration Techniques: Other Skin Areas

    Transscrotal absorption. Whilst the scrotum is not a mucous membrane, it is much more absorbent than other skin sites. Transscrotal absorption is employed by some transdermal testosterone patches, and scrotal skin permits 5 to 40 times greater absorption of testosterone than other skin sites. Hopefully, similar figures apply to B12 absorption across the scrotum. This method is suited to liquid B12 drops, and possibly fine B12 powder applied like talcum powder.

    Under armpits and underside of arms. Skin here is thinner and more absorbent than other areas of body skin. This method is suited to liquid B12 drops, and possibly fine B12 powder. A shaved armpit is useful here.
     
    Lotus97 and hixxy like this.
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Hip,

    I just want to comment on two methods. The rectal is very likely quite effective as it is for drugs.

    Vaginal may also work especially well. Semen contains far far more TC2 for transporting b12 than blood does. Doing the math, if all the TC2 were HTC2, fully occupied by b12 then 10cc of semen could contain as much b12 as a liter of blood. A study a few years ago studied mood of women whose husbands used condoms versus those who didn't. The ones who didn't were less depressed. This was attributed to the testosterone being absorbed vaginally but as b12 has a significant effect on depression it could be the b12 as well. The HTC2 is contained in the semen, not the sperm, which lack mitochondria. The amount of b12 in 10cc of semen could amount to 1-2 mcg, enough to raise the serum level 100-400 pg/ml if all absorbed, enough to give a baby a good start.
     
  3. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    If all the above is a little overwhelming, you might consider trying, if you are a guy, say 5 x 1,000 mcg B12 drops on scrotal skin. Transscrotal absorption of liquid B12 appears to be quite fast, and the ease and convenience of this method is excellent.

    I wish I had some means of quantitatively measuring the efficacy of B12 absorption by these different approaches, but probably the only way is just to go by how you feel that is, if your CFS symptoms get better by one approach, you might assume that this is because of good B12 absorption.

    The B12 on the upper gums approach as devised by Freddd is, I guess, a kind of gold standard of B12 absorption on this forum, so this can be the reference for comparison.
     
  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    This is very interesting Freddd. If semen contains a high amount of TC2 (transcobalamin II) that binds to B12, I wonder would this be a good thing or a bad thing in the case of urethral, transscrotal or rectal B12 application?

    I am just thinking that the semen carrier fluid in the prostate could bind to and sequester much of the B12, so that the rest of the body does not get it (may be especially true if semen is regularly released though sex).
     
  5. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    Is there a liquid drop easily available that has been tested to be effective?
     
  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I am using Holistic Health's B12 drops. They make adenosylcobalamin, methylcobalamin, and hydroxocobalamin B12 drops:

    http://www.holisticheal.com/supplements/b12-products/adenosyl-12-mega-drops.html
    http://www.holisticheal.com/supplements/b12-products/methyl-12-mega-drops.html
    http://www.holisticheal.com/supplements/b12-products/hydroxy-b12-mega-drops.html

    Note that these do contain citric acid, and if used on the gums, they may erode the tooth enamel, as discussed here.
     
  7. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Hip and the group.

    The following is copied from Dr. David Gregg's website, www.krysalis.net

    Note that Dr. Gregg does not have ME/CFS. He is nominally healthy. However, his method might be of interest here.


    "I am a strong believer in oral dietary supplements. It is the best start. You can get B12 and folic acid supplements at any health food store and follow the directions on the label. Since vitamin B12 requires a special absorption system that may not be healthy in a particular individual, some people may not benefit from oral supplements. For such people, one form of B12 is available, called sublingual tablets, which are designed to be held under the tongue while the B12 is absorbed through the skin. Many may find this approach to be advantageous. Available by prescription are B12 shots, which may have to be administered by a doctor. I discovered another approach which I experimented with personally and which eventually led me to discover what I interpreted to be a very common Vitamin B12 deficiency, independent of the age group. This surprised and puzzled me very much.


    "Back in 1994 when I was focusing on learning as much as I could about vitamin B12, an experiment came to mind, which I decided to try on myself. I saw a bottle of DMSO (dimethylsulfoxide) on the shelf of my health food store and remembered that DMSO is not only absorbed directly through the skin, but it also would carry with it any impurities dissolved in it. This can be a serious problem if the impurities are toxic. However, I also realized that if I dissolved vitamin B12 in it, it might carry it directly to my blood stream through my skin. I tried it and the results were dramatic for me, far greater than any impact I had ever felt from oral or sublingual tablets. I put some of my vitamin B12 tablets obtained at a health food store into a two liquid ounce bottle with an eyedropper and filled it with DMSO. It took a couple of days for the tablets to fall apart. Once they did, I put an eyedropper load on one arm and rubbed it in. In approximately one hour I started to feel very good, which was a sense of general strength and well being. This lasted all day. When I tried it again the next day, I got no such feeling. I also didn't experience any bad effects either. Since I knew that approximately one months requirement of B12 is stored in your liver, I reasoned that my system was simply fully supplied with Vitamin B12 and that I wouldn't need to use it again for a month or so. When I tried it again a month or so later, I got a significant boost from it again. Since then I have continued to use it on a once every month or so basis."

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    .

    That is interesting that the DMSO method worked for him. I have not really tried DMSO for B12. I was going to try DMSO, but put it aside, mainly as a I read in this old study that B12 cyanocobalamin was not absorbed all that well across the skin using DMSO, no better than using water (but that ethanol worked quite well). Whether this applies to other forms of B12 I don't know.

    I'm not sure how reliable that study is. DMSO I understand carries many things though the skin and into the body.
     
  9. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    Another thing I had considered was to use a nebuliser. I got the idea after reading about Dr Myhill using it for administering magnesium. http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Magnesium_by_nebuliser

    Also, regarding transdermal medication, things that increase absorption are heat, exercise, hydration and alcohol.
     
  10. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    rich,
    If a person has a lot of amalgam fillings, would it be a bad idea to suck on sublinglual methyl B12?
    thanks
     
  11. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    anyone got any experience of nebulising magnesium? i wonder if the garden-variety mag sulphate from walmart would be pure enough to use like this?
     
  12. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    I haven't tried it, but I was reading Sarah Myhill's site a couple of days ago :)

    Interesting that it acted so well to treat asthma.

    I think some people nebulise mag chloride too, though apparently it's a bit uncomfortable.

    Here we have two grades af Mag sulfate available. One is sold as "pharmaceutical grade", and the other is supplied by fertilizer companies. Theres a big difference in the price but I'm not sure how much difference there is in the purity?

    From Dr Myhill's site
    http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Magnesium_-_treating_a_deficiency

    ETA ooops hadn't seen that April already posted the link! :rolleyes:




    :)
     
  13. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hmmm. I hadn't thought about that. It seems that that could raise the concentrations of both methylB12 and mercury in the saliva, and reaction rates do depend on concentrations. I think it's something that should be considered some more. I don't have an answer at this point. That seems like something that could be determined experimentally fairly easily if the right analytical chemistry equipment were available in the hands of a properly trained person.

    Rich
     
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Hip,

    The studies I read were studies of deficienct people. They commented on how little cobalamin was actually bound to the TC2 and that there was so much TC2. This would be expected in the case of deficiency I would imagine unless the attachment were pre-emptive. It doesn't appear to be. To keep this in perspective this amount of b12 might be present in a small piece of beef. The liver excretes 5-15mcg, depending upon where you read it, daily. The amount in seminal fluid is small compared normal day to day changes. For that quantity to make a difference a person would need to be already deficient and in that case the quantity in the semen would be way down as well. I have not been able to find any study showing the amount of b12 in semen in healthy non-deficient people.

    However, the effect must have been noticeable in vegetarian countries. The ritual "tantric meal", at least one variation thereof, included beef, fish and a grain dish providing in essence mb12, adb12, omega3 oils and b-complex. Several mcgs absorbed by somebody in deficiency would have a noticeable effect. As b12 deficiency causes all sorts of reproductive problems in male and female, orgasmic problems, ED, low testosterone and so on, it is very important for the ecstatic sexual practices of Tantric and Taoist alchemical practice. The semen is considered loaded with spiritual "energy". The equivalent female orgasm generated fluids might also have the TC2 but I have seen no research on that. These fluids are considered highly energetic and as "medicine" and to be healing in some systems. They are consumed as a sacrament.

    So then the question arises, is the vaginal tissue specifically adept at absorbing HTC2? In a b12 limited society is frequent sex after impregnation important for supplying sufficient ongoing b12 to the fetus? How does this come about evolutionarily?
     
  15. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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    Well ...Let me know if you get any answers.
    My mom has a mouth full of amalgams...& I am encouraging her to suck on methyl B12 & it just struck me that might not be the smartest thing.
    I would hate to be one of those well meaning persons who actually makes things worse for the person they are trying to help.
     
  16. kat0465

    kat0465 Senior Member

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    Several years ago, my doc gave me a form of nasal b12. It was in a bottle like nose spray, except it was thicker.
    I'm sure they still make this, ask your doc.


    Kat
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Aquariusgirl,

    I would suggest that it would be generally more effective if placed in direct tissue contact rather than sucked upon, such as under the lip or tongue. That would increase absorption by perhaps 10-25 times. That way the mb12 is directly absorbed. I would also suggest that the lack of mb12 is a lot more likely a problem, on the order of 50% (1 in 2) or higher than a 1 in a 1000 or 1 in a 1,000,000 potential problem. It's like the measles outbreak currently going on in Utah amongst those who thought vaccination was too risky. Now a bunch of kids have measles which can cause severe damage or death. Keep risk in perspective. This year in the USA 35,000 people or so will die from automobile accidents out of 300,000,000+ or so, about 1 in 10,000 and that is a lot more likely than a problem from sucking on mb12 and having amalgams. Most of the people in the country have amalgams and very few have any overt problems from fruit for instance which is far more acid.
     
  18. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    The biggest difference is probably the way it is handled after the manufacturing process. The pharmaceutical grade is processed in a high level sterile environment (stainless steel bins, postive pressure hvac w/ hepa fliters type of setup ?????). The fertilizer grade is probably put in bins that has had ammonia, potassium, potash and etc..... and even the amount spilled on the floor swept up and dumped back into bins. This is just a visualization in my mind and I'm sure some products are the same whether they are high grade or low grade. The fertilizer industry in most aspects is an extremly dirty process and by that I mean that handling and packaging standpoint. Hopefully someone can verify this more clearly as I am all about saving money too!
     
  19. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    So, who's going to be the first one to get game enough to try the "back door" method of taking these tablets, and then be game enough to report back?!
     
  20. Francelle

    Francelle Senior Member

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    I have some questions related to B12 levels!

    . This may have been discussed on another thread but how many people get follow-up levels of B12 done after they have been on it for awhile?
    . Are measurements even useful?
    . Do various forms of administration, such as those being discusssed in this thread, produce better serum/blood levels?
    . What about intracellular levels?
    . Do blood levels belie effectiveness or otherwise of the B12?
    . Why do some people continue to take mega-doses when their levels are elevated or high in range?
    . Is it better to take several types of B12 such as methyl, cyan, hydroxy - rather than just one type of cobalamin?
     

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