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Alem Matthees analyses on released PACE data blast "recovery" claims - huge damage to PACE

Large Donner

Senior Member
Messages
866
APT included telling patients to only do 70% of what they thought they comfortably could.

Isn't this proof that APT whatever it was wasn't pacing as practiced by patients. They should have had long term patients who learned to pace themselves according to their own level of functionability, given them zero advice or intervention then contacted them at the end of the trial to compare outcomes.

The very fact that they were given an arbitrary 70% figure to attempt to achieve just introduces unmeasurable subjective variables into the analysis. How did they prove that all people in the APT arm met 70% of......what exactly!!!! and what did 70% even mean to each individual person?

What if one persons 70% was another persons 50% or someone elses 90%? If they started to get worse were they supposed to try to achieve 70% of the new lowered level of functioning or the original one.

This is just not pacing as practiced by any of us, mainly because it is directed.

Its amazing that SMC = standard medical care, yet:

APT = non standard pacing........

When standard pacing could have been used as the closest thing to a control group.

If that had been done and then true deterioration data had been collected that could have been very interesting.

Just amazing that £5 million was given to them and it didn't even cross their minds to do this.
 
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Keela Too

Sally Burch
Messages
900
Location
N.Ireland

Glycon

World's Most Dangerous Hand Puppet
Messages
299
Location
ON, Canada

This is exactly the type of response I was expecting. That's why we need independent, peer-reviewed re-analysis.

Not if you're Henrik Vogt, you don't!
Some would argue that these [recovery stories] are mere anecdotes, that one needs controlled trials to say anything. From an epistemological (theory of knowledge) point of view, I would disagree. Randomized controlled trials are important. That does not mean that cases like these, where people who are formerly very ill get better in a shorter period of time, cannot tell us anything. The causal link between the intervention and the recovery seems quite obvious. It is the man´s recovery that is "an undeniable fact", it is also a piece of empirical evidence that needs to be interpreted in context.

Why are people even paying attention to Henrik Voigt? He is obviously just a pseudointellectual douchebag. Of the kind I used to destroy for a living before I got too sick.
 

Marky90

Science breeds knowledge, opinion breeds ignorance
Messages
1,253
last ned.jpg
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
Isn't this proof that APT whatever it was wasn't pacing as practiced by patients. They should have had long term patients who learned to pace themselves according to their own level of functionability, given them zero advice or intervention then contacted them at the end of the trial to compare outcomes.

The very fact that they were given an arbitrary 70% figure to attempt to achieve just introduces unmeasurable subjective variables into the analysis. How did they prove that all people in the APT arm met 70% of......what exactly!!!! and what did 70% even mean to each individual person?
.

It might just reflect if you ask people what can you do, tell people to do 70% of what they think they can do and ask them what can you do then the improvements in what they can do are small or reduced.
 

worldbackwards

Senior Member
Messages
2,051

This is exactly the type of response I was expecting. That's why we need independent, peer-reviewed re-analysis.
The irony being this these results are exactly what you'd expect from Sharpe's analysis of the improvement data.

Anyway, who is this "Henrik Vogt", sending so called "tweets" on the "internet" (if that is its real name)?
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
With the analysis of the data as per the protocol, I thought I'd look again at Professor Sir Simon Wessely's article from last November in Mental Elf, where he defended the trial, using the analogy of HMS PACE.

It was embarrassing enough then, it's even more so now......

Here are some snippets from it in case of interest:

http://www.nationalelfservice.net/o...choppy-seas-but-a-prosperous-voyage/#comments

The PACE Trial for chronic fatigue syndrome: choppy seas but a prosperous voyage

Professor Sir Simon Wessely 4th November 2015

"In this blog I will argue that HMS PACE did make it successfully across the Atlantic. Small corrections to the route taken were made on the way, but these were of little significance. The fundamental mechanics of the ship remained water tight and at no time were the ship or its passengers in peril until it safely docked exactly where it was supposed to."


"..... I am well informed about clinical trials in general, and about the issues that surround chronic fatigue syndrome in particular. I have previously made it clear that I think that PACE was a good trial; I once described it as a thing of beauty. In this blog I will describe why I still think that and I will try and avoid very technical issues, which have been addressed by the investigators on many occasions."


"It (PACE) has already been used as an example of how to conduct a large complex intervention, and has been cited 219 times in Scopus. But of course it has also been subjected to what in my experience is an unprecedented campaign of criticism, which sometimes has merged into something approaching vilification that goes well beyond a reasoned scientific critique."


"e. Changes to original protocol
The researchers changed the way they scored and analysed the primary outcomes from the original protocol.
The actual outcome measures did not change, but it is true that the investigators changed the way that fatigue was scored from one method to another (both methods have been described before and both are regularly used by other researchers) in order to provide a better measure of change (one method gives a maximum score of 11, the other 33). How the two primary outcomes (fatigue and physical function) were analysed was also changed from using a more complex measure, which combined two ways to measure improvement, to a simple comparison of mean (average) scores. This is a better way to see which treatment works best, and made the main findings easier to understand and interpret. This was all done before the investigators were aware of outcomes and before the statisticians started the analysis of outcomes. The changes were approved by the two independent oversight committees. The very detailed analysis plan, including these changes, was published, and these changes and the reasons for them were also described in the main paper."


"Conclusion
No trial is perfect. Nothing as complex as a multi-centre trial (there were six centres involved), that recruited 641 people, delivered thousands of hours of treatment, and managed to track nearly all of them a year later, can ever be without some faults. But this trial was a landmark in behavioural complex intervention studies. That is why it survived all the independent scrutiny as it progressed, survived the rigorous review processes of one of the world’s top medical journals, which rejects nearly all the papers it receives, and this is why it has already been cited in over 200 medical publications. But even then, one trial does not a summer make, and one needs to see it as part of the totality of similar trials before and since."

..................................

And now, in Juile Rehmeyer's excellent article https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/21/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-pace-trial/ when asked about the re-analysis and the lack of recovery with CBT/GET, Professor Sir Simon Wessely, President of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, said:

“OK folks, nothing to see here, move along please.”

He still doesn't have the grace/sense/ integrity to concede how seriously flawed the trial was.

Self preservation, loyalty to his peers and the BSP ideology would seem to take absolute precedence over any notion of scientific integrity and certainly patient safety.

Wessely could have just left it at

I will try and avoid very technical issues

And saved his readers some time, the rest is all verbiage. Avoiding technical issues is what he does, and I expect what he will continue to do. I'm not sure any of them actually understand the technical issues involved, but that won't stop them talking about them, whilst simultaneously making sure they don't talk about them, of course.
 

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
Apparently this Twitter troll is an MD. So there you have it, ladies and gents. If you are a CFS patient (subhuman scum according to these people), merely pointing out what the data say is being "hellbent" on "discrediting science". As Stark said, the recovery rates are what they are. I don't know what the troll thinks the patients should do, pretend that they're higher so that their dispassionate analysis of the facts wouldn't discredit the magnificent psychosocial house of cards?
 

deleder2k

Senior Member
Messages
1,129
He is impossible to have a proper debate with. He is a supporter of LP. He is obsessed with the thought that patients with ME use all their energy to fight LP and CBT. Not sure if there's any point trying to have a chat with him. He doesn't reply to questions or facts. He is obsessed with anecdotes. Science and proper trials are not his thing when it comes to ME. If a CBT study is flawed? Who cares? Patients should be focusing on getting healthier. Not "attacking" CBT researchers.

Very disappointing from a medical doctor.