The Power and Pitfalls of Omics: George Davey Smith’s storming talk at ME/CFS conference
Read about the talk that stole the show at a recent ME/CFS conference in Simon McGrath's two-part blog.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Aerobic fitness in adolescents with chronic pain or chronic fatigue: parallels and mechanisms?

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by Dolphin, May 13, 2017.

  1. Dolphin

    Dolphin Senior Member

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    Free full text: https://www.medicaljournals.se/jrm/content_files/download.php?doi=10.2340/16501977-2221
    https://www.medicaljournals.se/jrm/content/abstract/10.2340/16501977-2221

    (Not a recommendation)

     
  2. trishrhymes

    trishrhymes Senior Member

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    PIty they didn't think to do a 2 day CPET test. What a wasted opportunity. Don't reseachers ever read other people's work before they start a trial.
     
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  3. Mohawk1995

    Mohawk1995 Senior Member

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    There are some similarities that I have seen between those with chronic pain and those with ME. They both can have "crashes" (pain for chronic pain and PEM for ME) after exertion, but I would agree that a 2 day CPET test would probably delineate the differences between the two. I do not think that either group's results are primarily driven by deconditioning. Rather I am of the opinion that both are driven by Neurophysiological intolerance to exertion. ME because of metabolic reasons and Chronic pain because of Neuro-inflamatory reasons.

    Definitely agree with your point about researchers reading other's work. Unfortunately many in research have tunnel vision and already have a theory they are attempting to prove. At least in this case, the researchers were willing to admit their initial hypothesis was incorrect.
     
  4. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Hibernating

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    The "common pathway"? How about: people with pain or fatigue (due to chronic illness) exercise less as a result of their impairment!?!

    They are confusing cause with effect.

    Secondly, their ignorance as to the differences between the diagnostic criteria (eg the studies by Jason and others) as well as the 2 day CPET studies just shows you that they care more about pushing their biased hypothesis, than choosing the theory that bests fits the data.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
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  5. TenuousGrip

    TenuousGrip Senior Member

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    When scientists ask the wrong question, it's seldom surprising when they come up with the wrong answer.

    The ones who are looking at more granular biomarkers (eg, CSF, gene expression, immune, inflammatory, anti-inflammatory, neuroinflammatory, intestinal microbiota, etc.) are seeing things in a radically different way.

    [I agree with others asking why Mayo seems to be blissfully unaware of other research on the subject]

    Mayo may as well be asking if our hair gets any more messed up by a breeze than HC's (Healthy Controls).

    In two visits, I spent more than a month of my life at the MN Mayo Clinic. I -- like many others -- crawled away roundly unimpressed (and much poorer).
     
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  6. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Why? their ideas are perfect as they are...
     
  7. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    As somebody said, you don't win a science Nobel prize for getting the right answer, but for asking the right question.
     
  8. Keela Too

    Keela Too Sally Burch

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    Sounds like they are attempting to find more evidence for blaming the patient!

    I mean why else would they NOT look at 2 day testing?

    I really cannot believe they are not aware of the research using 2 day testing. So we can discount that reason (or if they aren't aware of the work with the 2 day test, they don't deserve to have any credibility).

    So that leaves 'exclusion by intent' in my view.

    So why would they intentionally exclude the 2 Day CPET?

    Oh right that wouldn't help push the meme that ME patients are just a deconditioned population, and need to be persuaded to do more exercise!!
     
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  9. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    There is absolutely no excuse for them to not know about PEM, nor take it properly into account when designing studies and testing outcomes.
     
  10. Barry53

    Barry53 Senior Member

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    So very true in engineering also. There is an innate tendency sometimes to home in on questions that "are more suitable". As a slightly amusing aside, I recall Margaret Thatcher being interviewed and was asked a tricky question, which she successfully fended off by responding along the lines of (cannot recall the detail): "That is not the question you should be asking, the question you should be asking is ..."; she then proceeded to confidently answer her self-posed question.
     
  11. Barry53

    Barry53 Senior Member

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    You are such a cynic! ... :p:rolleyes::D. (Just in case anyone is in doubt, I fully agree with @Keela Too).
     
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  12. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    Perhaps they would not look at 2-day CPET because they only read the literature written by people they already know they will agree with. One of the best things about PR is that we post (and presumably read) studies that go against our own view of the illness.

    I'll add this additional perspective: I have probably read more literature on ME/CFS than many scientists who work on it. There is a unique impetus when you yourself are suffering that cannot be replicated by all the scholarly fervor in the world.

    When asked malice or stupidity/ignorance of the facts, I usually choose the latter.
     
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