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ME/CFS: A disease at war with itself
We can all agree that ME/CFS is a nasty disease, particularly in its severe form, but there are abundant nasty diseases in the world. What is unique and particularly confounding about our disease is that so much controversy surrounds it, and not only surrounds it, but invades it too.
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Adrenal Issues and treatment problems

Discussion in 'Adrenal Dysfunction' started by Misfit Toy, Feb 14, 2011.

  1. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    @Dreambirdie I am about to start exactly these herbals after some research. Do you find that you can take them long term or there is any need to rotate? What Eleuthero you think is best? Btw Panthetine 950 mg sublingually does help energy and libido (if you are a man only, cuz it lowers prolactin). Basic nutrient for adrenals along with vitamin C.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  2. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    @Beyond In my case, I have to rotate them, as they lose their effectiveness after about 3 months. I got the Imperial Brand Siberian Sport, as it was the strongest dose of eleuthero I could find, so I didn't have to take as many pills.

    Watch out for the ashwaghanda, as it will raise your thyroid levels over time. It certainly did with me.
    Beyond likes this.
  3. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Not a bad thing for my case, at least for some time. Thanks for answering! Yeah I saw that brand but didn´t know if it worked or not. I am paranoid after so many ineffective supplements lol
  4. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

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    Yes, there is never any guarantee of any treatment being effective for this disease, so a grain of salt can be a good thing.
  5. Ayaju

    Ayaju *****

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  6. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I was on eleuthero for about 8-9 months, with a few weekend breaks here and there. Felt pretty good on it, and it definitely increased my strength and endurance. But I ran out about 3 months ago and decided to take a longer break, and then I severely crashed after a few days! Swollen glands, chills, flui-sh feeling really bad for a night, curled up in a chair in agony, etc. then that mostly went away the next day just leaving the worse fatigue. I've been severely crashed since then, though, with my heart pounding all the time and a kind of oxygen hunger, along with a lot less endurance and more pain everywhere. Not sure what it did!

    My naturopath said I taxed the adrenals while I was on it, since my endurance was better while I was taking it and I was doing more things. But I'm not sure I totally buy that, because I felt as good at the end of the 9 months as in the beginning, if not better, and if the adrenals were getting wiped, I'd expect to have gone gradually (or quickly) downhill. But I only felt worse after the crash, with not much improvement since then. I think the eleuthero alters norepinephrine brain chemistry in certain ways, which contributes to the anti-fatigue effects, but then withdrawing it too suddenly caused some kind of neuro-immune adrenal crash.

    I had basic blood tests a few weeks ago, and everything was totally normal, except thyroid was a little worse (TSH up, T4 a little down, both within "normal" range, though). So I'm not really sure what to do except add it back again and see if it will fix whatever "broke" when I went off it. I've already been taking about 1/3 capsule a day just to feel a little better, which seems to work. But I have the concern that now that I'm weaker, adding a full dose again WILL wipe out the adrenals more. Very frustrating to have this kind of setback. :- (

    Anyway, posting just to share my experience, to get advice if anyone has any, but also as a caution for those who want to try eleuthero not to go off it cold turkey! I think if I tapered like every other day for a while, then half a cap every day, etc. I might not have crashed.
    Beyond likes this.
  7. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Jeffrez I am sorry to read that, especially since I want to start on adaptogens. Before your testimonial I read this pdf: http://naimh.com/fatigue/Bergner-Adaptogens-2013.pdf Where in fact a patient using eleuthero long term finds that he is worse when getting off. We have to remember that adaptogens only offer adrenal support while on them, they do not heal adrenal fatigue with lasting effects, so when you get off you are left with your adrenally fatigued body which now has to deal with disease without the support, hence you feel worse.

    The doc in the pdf mentions that in his experience the worst effects of adaptogens on healthy people is that they make possible overexertion and they decrease our awareness of sleep deprivation. Basically they make us less aware of our feelings of being ill, which can be detrimental if that feeling does not correspond with actually being healthier.

    Ideally adaptogens are for healthy people to AVOID getting adrenal fatigue, and some like the ginseng´s are not for long term use. Personally I think adaptogens can be awesome but if you have some significant degree of adrenal fatigue you´ll need B5,vitamin C, lifestyle modification etc long term.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
    RosieBee and jeffrez like this.
  8. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Great pdf, Beyond, thank you very much. Much of what Bergner says definitely resonates with my experience. Especially interesting to me is the GABA/neurotransmitter connection, and the bit about the testosterone-cortisol axis, as after the crash my sex drive completely crashed, also. It was also interesting to read about the woman who recovered from a rebound crash by increasing her caloric intake. Not sure that would help in my case, as I get the definite feel that something "broke," but it's worth trying, as perhaps the eleuthero changes glycogen conversion, etc. and the body afterward experiences the need for more calories. Thankfully my blood sugar numbers, and everything else except the thyroid, still check out as okay so far, but I didn't get T or cortisol tested, which probably would show deficiencies.

    I agree with you that these adaptogens are not for long term use, at least not with some significant breaks along the way. When I was taking it, I would take periodic breaks for a few days, would feel some decline in energy after 2-3 days seemingly back to baseline fatigue, and then would just go back on it again for a few more weeks (6-8 weeks was what I saw recommended to be safe), then lather, rinse, repeat. I thought those breaks were long enough, but apparently they need to be longer - a week or two at least, I would now say, for every 4-6 weeks on. I also load up on the Vit C and B5 in very hefty doses, but I honestly can't say that they seem to help much, contrary to how much they're touted by the adrenal advocates. The biggest effect I notice is on my wallet from all that C, lol.

    Anyway, thanks for the great PDF. Everyone who takes adaptogens, or is thinking of taking them, should definitely at least take a quick glance at that presentation and keep it in consideration.
    Beyond likes this.
  9. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    The HPA axis and libido are closely related. If we manage to restore the homeostasis and function of these glands we will get a raging libido again. However the dilemma is, either you take things that make "adrenal fatigue" (or anything else that is chronic, really) better WHILE on them, or you do something that actually heals it over time i.e. one day you no longer need treatment. Does that exist? I don´t know, but for now I will be still popping pills, taking powders, with an awfully healthy diet, looking for these things that make me feel better

    For example, talking about libido, I have experimented a bit with aphrodisiacs, maca, horny goat weed, tribulus and more and yes my sexual function was so much pleasurable while on them, but that was years ago and as soon as I got off to treat more urgent issues I was in the sexual dysfunction region of always. At the end of the day we have to face that some things are either genetic or so hard to correct that we will be on some sort of treatment for the rest of our lifes. It is still better than just being ill without treatment though, I´ll take that dependence if I can!
    jeffrez likes this.
  10. acrosstheveil

    acrosstheveil Senior Member

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    i have been taking pantethine 900 mg/day as well as adrenal/organ glandulars but still do not have enough energy even to work part time. I read paba may help and just took one earlier but feel terribly overstimulated. I read that it works by producing folate in the gut. Maybe upping my methylfolate dosage would be a better route?
  11. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Adrenals are not the only thing which can affect energy.

    It can also be thyroid, Kreb's cycle, and mitochondria. There can be nutrient deficiencies as well as toxic metals blocking things.

    You may have to do a multifaceted approach of all of those areas, along with methylation supps.

    Methylation will automatically help detox metals so you probably don't need to do anything special for that. Doing stool testing and killing off any bad gut bugs present will also help release toxic metals. In fact, Yasko has this as a first step before adding methyl supps.

    The Nutreval test has a neat diagram of your Kreb's cycle so you can see exactly where your energy production is having problems. Then you can take supps to prop up those areas. For example, I was taking vitamin E succinate to help out succinic acid. You can also see which metals you might have causing problems in the cycle.

    Mito supps are ribose, carnitine, co Q 10, NADH, etc. Adenosylcobalamin also helps the mitochondria.

    Mercury can impact the thyroid, as well as folate deficiency. My mercury is now out and I appear to be working on lead, which is another energy blocker. My thyroid has started working normally and I don't need medication any more. Based on being able to lower adrenal supps my adrenals are also improving, maybe 50%? I'm starting to get a bit of energy and reduction of PEM.

    I am taking microdoses of methyl supps while the metals are coming out to avoid feeling worse. Once those are out, I should be able to increase my methyl supps and hopefully see even more energy then.

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