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adrenal fatigue treatments any success.

Discussion in 'Adrenal Dysfunction' started by heapsreal, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    IM NOT TALKING ABOUT JUST ADDING ONE HORMONE LIKE DHEA BUT BALANCEING SEVERAL HORMONES, IM PARTICULARLY INTERESTED IN MALES. i DONT KNOW THE IN AND ITS OF THE WHOLE ANSWER BUT SEVERAL YEARS OF DEALING WITH CHRONIC INFECTIONS DEFINATELY POUNDS THE ADRENALS. i HAVE HAD SEVERAL TESTS THAT HAVE SHOWED ABNORMALITIES AND IN NOW GOING THROUGHT THE PACES OF SORTING IT ALL OUT, AS ONCE U HAD ONE HORMONE IT EFFECTS OTHERS. pREGNENOLONE SEEMS TO BE THE BEST STARTING POINT AS IT FILTERS THROUGH TO OTHERS HROMONES IN NEED OF RESTORATION, ALSO A SHORT COURSE OF LOW DOSE HYDROCORT CAN HELP REST THE ADRENALS AND SORTING OUT THE PREG AND HYDROCORT CAN ALSO HELP WITH ELEVATED e2 IN MEN WHICH HAS A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON TESTOSTERONE. eLEVATED E2 CAN BE A SIGN OF ADENAL FATIGUE AND E2 HELPS REGULATE E2 AS WELL AS CORTISOL BUT CORTISOL SEEMS TO BE THE BEST OPTION. oNCE PREG IS ADDED ITS THEN A CASE OF ADDING OTHER HORMONES. iT SEEMS VERY COMPLICATED AND I THINK IT COMES DOWN TO SELF EDUCATION AND AND INTERGRATIVE DOC TO SORT IT ALL OUT

    i WOULD APPRECIATE ANY OTHER AND EXPERIENCES,

    CHEERS!!!
  2. August59

    August59 Daughters High School Graduation

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    Hey Heaps did you know you had caps lock on?

    I'm going through the same thing. It started out with low T. Then when I went to Hunter-Hopkins they checked my DHEAs, thyroid, cortisol and Vit. d. Dhea(s) was very low, thyroid was in the bottom qtr. (free T3), Vit. D was low and cortisol was almost out of range low.

    Had already started Androgel, so Test. was good. I added Dhea 100mg for a couple of months then dropped to 50mg and recheck had barely in normal range. Vit D also came up and have continued to stay there with 1,000 - 2,000iu / day. Was on 15mg of hydrocortisone for about 8-9 months and tapered down over 6 months, but when I went to 2.5 mgs all hell broke lose. Testosterone dropped to 91 (I think this was parially due to compounding pharmacy getting it wrong), TSH went 7.75 started 50mcg Synthyroid. Haven't been rechecked yet on Dhea(s).

    Changed from compounded test back to Androgel 5mg, and now back to 368 (Total T - new endo and he doesn't even check free T and only uses TSH for thyroid - last time for him). TSH is still 5, so going up to 75 mcg.

    After all the two dtr visits and med. changes I still feel terrible. Symptoms - Sweating 24/7, forehead and nose area of face is terribly oily (wash 2 times a day and clean with Seabreeze once) and the oil even gets in my eyes. Both of my SI joints are killing me (feels like gout) and my nipples hurt and you would think there is a cold breeze in here all day as my high beams are on half the time (sorry ladies). Tried to get endo to check estradiol, but he wanted to wait for Testosterone and thyroid results. I finally talked him into it, but then ordered the "normal" E2 (not E2-sensitive need for men), so it wasn't performed.

    I still believe the discontinuing the hydrocortisone set things in motion, but it has benn 3 months since I totally quit and thing haven't improved at all. I feel sure my estrogen is high, so I'm going to order my own test from here (this is LabCorp testing).

    What kind of symptoms are you having? What labs are normal and/or abnormal?
  3. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi August 59, low DHEA-s and Cortisol can indicate that the problem is in the Pituitary and your suffering from secondary adrenal insufficiency see chart on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrenal_insufficiency

    You need to get serum ACTH tests done as this is the one that can tell between primary and secondary, also get Aldosterone, DHEA, Renin and Na(sodium) and K(Potassium) done as these will help clear things up.

    The Pituitary is the Master Gland of the Endochrine system a problem with it can disrupt thyroid and testosterone levels as well as a lot of other things, you should of had a ACTH stimulation test done as well if your cortisol is so low.

    Any endo who only checks TSH is a waste of space! and they should be aiming to get your TSH below 2.5.

    Good to see your vit d levels have incresed but you should be on a far higher dose to fix the problem, but remember you need your calcium levels checked when taking high dose vit d, incase you develope hypercalacimia, referance ranges for vit d have been proved to be out of date. old ranges and treatment recomendations here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19835345

    Information on new ranges and treatment here http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/health/deficiency/am-i-vitamin-d-deficient.shtml and here http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/13/1/6.pdf

    Info on pituitary diseases here http://www.pituitary.org/library/about.aspx If you want to post the exact results of cortisol test etc i'll see if i can give you more help

    All the best
  4. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    from what i have read from another site, is that testosterone is regulated by cortisol and if this doesnt work well then its regulated by E2 which isnt healthy for us men and could mean adrenal fatigue. They believe that supplementing with pregnenolone creams to start with is the go then test all hormones say after 6 weeks. If dhea is still low supplement with it, if pregnenolone helps with cortisol and down regulates e2 thats great if not arimidex is the next step as it blocks testosterone from aromatising to E2. then if testosterone is low supplement with that and then its abit of a juggling act to get E2 right because E2 in older men go's up when testosterone go's up, so we have to experiment with drugs like arimidex to stop too much conversion of E2, but if lower E2 we can have alot of problems as well, we need to get it in the correct range. once in the correct range with good Tesosterone levels, then we should see our free testosterone levels go up.
    heres a good site for all this info but lets try and keep this going here for the cfs men having problems http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=2
  5. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    my totalT was upper1/3 of range , freeT was low, dhea was low and E2 was high and when i used 50mg of dhea a day it shot my E2 higher without any real effect on other hormones, so i stopped taking it. MY cfs doc after telling him my situation put me on arimidex to lower my E2 and then i had blood tests 6 weeks later and find out results this week, see how my other hormones react but will look at using pregnenolone cream to start with and see how if effects everything, im hoping my E2 is down and that has increased my freeT and by adding preg hopefully increases my dhea and the end point is hopefully more energy. I have read that when preg doses are corrected , sleep improves, i hope so.

    cheers!!!
  6. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi heapsreal do you have your cortisol results? my concern with you saying that they where low along with DHEA-S is that it indicates Adrenal Insufficiency not Adrenal Fatigue, AI is alot more serious and treating with Pregnenolone cream will not fix it. The fact that you feel worse after stopping Hydrocortisone also makes either primary or secondary adrenal insufficiency quite likly.

    Testosterone isn't regulated by cortisol, it is regulated by Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which is made in the hypothalamus which sends a message to the Pituitary gland which then releases Folic stimulating hormone (FSH) and Luteinizing hormone (LH) which triggers the testes to make testosterone, LH and FSH should be measured by blood test to see if there is a problem in pituitary.

    Pituitary problems can also cause HYpothyroidism it's called Secondary Hypothroidism TSH is normaly low with this but sometimes they can be high which you have info about it here http://healthguide.howstuffworks.com/hypothyroidism-secondary-dictionary.htm

    My feeling is that it is very important to get the right tests done before trying to self medicate these are serious conditions which if you have, need to be treated correctly and if treated correctly people can get their lives back very quickly, your endo should have done all this for you because your tests indicate there is the possibilty of you having these condition.

    All the best
  7. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Hi RLC
    not self treating but unde a doc who treats alot of patients with these hormones. As for stopping hydrocort, i havent used it yet and tests for cortisol have come back fine, ats blood and saliva testing. Im not sure we are on the same page with testosterone and cortisol, the info i was rehashing was from another board on male hormone restoration, i think we are getting regulate mixed up with stimulate as thats wha Lh and FSH do, but i think they were refering to increasing cortisol levels lower T levels and this is better then E2 doing it, from my understanding its either cortisol or E2 to choose from and for male health cortisol is apparently the one to go for. Heres a copy of a reply i had back from supposed hormone expert,
    Originally Posted by heapsreal
    hi, please correct me if Im wrong, aside from possible absorptions factors with creams/TD, do compounded creams/TD have reduced aromitisation to E2 then injections and more convertion to DHT then injections or is it the other way around?

    It's neither.

    The degree of aromatization of transdermal testosterone is a function of :

    a) how fast you absorb transdermal T
    ......this is dependant on T dose and the base,
    ......the faster you absorb T, the more likely it is to cause aromatization if your cortisol can't ramp up enough to downregulate the increase in T metabolism

    b) your body fat content
    ......your body fat is an estrogen generation factory)

    c) the ability of your body to ramp up cortisol to downregulate your T
    ......we are much much better off when our body can downregulate our T metabolism using cortisol, otherwise it will aromatise T into E2 and downregulate T using E2.


    The degree of aromatization of IM injected T cypionate testosterone is a function of :

    a) how fast your IM injected T cypionate converts into T
    ......this is dependant on T dose,
    ......the faster you absorb T, the more likely it is to cause aromatization if your cortisol can't ramp up enough to downregulate the increase in T metabolism

    b) your body fat content
    ......your body fat is an estrogen generation factory)

    c) the ability of your body to ramp up cortisol to downregulate your T
    ......we are much much better off when our body can downregulate our T metabolism using cortisol, otherwise it will aromatise T into E2 and downregulate T using E2.

    ##########

    That the only differentiator in the two scenarios is:
    a) how fast you absorb transdermal T
    ......this is dependant on T dose, and the carrier used,
    versus:
    a) how fast your IM injected T cypionate converts into T
    ......this is dependant on T dose.

    The comparison of these two situations is way too complex to be achieved theoretically, so you and your medical professional adviser will need to do some therapeutic trials (dosage response trials) to determine the outcomes.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by heapsreal
    Also with creams etc if absorbed well, are testosterone levels more stable then injections.

    Testosterone metabolism is far more important than testosterone levels.

    Testosterone metabolism is regulated by your cortisol preferably, and in the absence of adequate cortisol, your testosterone metabolism will be regulated by E2.

    In other words, your mission is to balance your rate of cortisol production with your testosterone dosage, to achieve stability, not to stabilize your serum T level and let your cortisol fluctuate because of a lack of awareness that you should be managing your cortisol.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by heapsreal
    I do know most guys prefer injection but just wondering if its absorption reason.

    I disagree with this statement. There are more males using transdermal T for the purposes of achieving physiologic levels of T than there are males using injected T for the purposes of achieving physiologic levels of T.

    The numbers speak for themselves.

    100% of bodybuilders use injected T (or injected anabolic steriods) to achieve supra physiologic levels of T, but their preference is 100% not applicable to the goal of achieving physiologic levels of T..


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by heapsreal
    One last question, does anyone buy their arimidex from 4RX online pharmacy as its almost 3 times cheaper then local pharmacy's. I have brought other meds from the guys with no hassles.

    If you need any arimidex at all, then you're still far from optimized in your hormone modulation therapy regime. You should do your best to balance your T dosage with your body's ability to produce cortisol, so that you don't need arimidex.

    Just because other forums may preach the use of arimidex to suppress T, doesn't mean they understand T metabolism - they don't. They understand T levels, but they don't understand the critical interactions between T metabolism, cortisol metabolism and E2 metabolism - and these interactions are far more important than serum levels.

    This is explained in the following post:
    testosterone boost 101, part 2: http://musclechatroom.com/forum/show...5&postcount=12

    .
    __________________
    Warning:

    A) Some males excrete hormones very slowly. Normal doses of hormones, in these males, accumulate and create symptoms of excess. These males must monitor hormone levels very carefully to ensure their serum levels don't keep rising and rising.

    B) Some males excrete hormones very quickly. These people require relatively high and frequent doses of hormones, and the cost of hormone supplementation, for these people, is relatively high.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Last edited by chilln; 6 Days Ago at 09:37 PM.
    Please argue these points if u have any further info to add.

    cheers!!!
  8. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi heapsreal, Sorry really must apolagize had really bad headache last 24 hours thats effecting my concentration, it is of course August59 who had the low cortisol DEAH-s And vit D,if your reading this August59 my answers are for you inrelation to your tests results not heapsreal!

    Heapsreal i'll get back to you when my heads cleared, you've posted alot of information and i'll read it when my brains working a bit better and tell you what i think, sorry again for the confussion!

    All the best
  9. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Hi,
    Dropping the hydrocort at 15mg a day shouldnt be an issue from what i have read, that is negative feedback loop stopping natural cortisol production. I do know pregnenolone creams are preffered over tablets for their slow absorption and relaese into the system, preg can help with cortisol production and dhea production, so mabe drop dhea while on preg and see if it riaises dhea and cortisol l;evel before adding anything else, if after 6 weekds dhea and cortisol are still low then supplement with them. dhea has a tendency in men to increase E2 as well, so the recommended dose is 25mg twice a day to help avoid E2 production. Also when testosterone is added E2 climbs as well, E2 labs should be around 25 or australian lab values 90.if it gets too high then an aromatise inhibitor is what u need like arimidex, if your nipples hurt this could be a sign of high E2, so definately drop the dhea for now. As for vitamin d, i had troubles getting it high until i started using prohealths vit d which has 50000iu in it, at first take it a couple of times a week and then i use it once a fortnight and my last test was high.u definately have some issues, u need a good doc and to start from the beginning again, yuor low cortisol good be messing with your thyroid, sp preg cream is what u want to start with and then get your E@ down.

    cheers!!!
  10. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi heapsreal, sorry again for the confussion the other day, your test results indicate the possibility of an underlying problem that has been missed. Low dhea indicates amongst other possibilities Hypopituitarism and adrenal problems, high Estrogens can indicate Adrenal and teste tumors and low testosterone can indicate hypothalamic, pituitary problems and damage to the testes.

    Information on these tests and there meaning can be found on these links http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/estrogen/test.html http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/testosterone/test.html http://www.labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/dheas/test.html

    Other tests that should have been done to determine the cause of your illness such as LH, FSH, ACTH etc, etc can also be found on these links I think it would be very unwise to try and treat these imbalances with creams without doing futher testing.

    Personally I would be sacking a doctor who hadn't followed up on theses test results. You say you have a CFS doctor, how come they don't know that CFS is defined as having no known cause, which means you don't fail standard tests, the tests you've failed are standard tests and they need to be investigated futher because they point to potentially very serious conditions.

    All the best
  11. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    hi rlc,
    i had 2 docs, my actual cfs doc i was seeing once every 4-6 months and another doc for scripts etc i needed and thought he would help. My cfs dr is persuing my hormone tests. As far as saying cfs is when they cant find any abnormalities is somewhat wrong i believe as the average dr doesnt test deep enough and who is to say u cant have more then one illness. Lots of studies out there showing immune abnormalities in cfs, natural killer cell dysfunction being a big one. DHEA and sex hormones are found to be low in alot of people with chronic illnesses, so not neccessarily the cause but the after effects, treating them though can help with symptoms. So my doc didnt treat the hormone abnormalities straight away as we were going to see how i responded to other treatments like antivirals which have helped and lowered my viral load etc. But we are underway with treating hormonal abnormalities and taking it 1 step at a time and not jumping the gun, if u go too fast too quickly u may end up getting treatments for things u dont need and when it comes to hormones they effect each other so its the resposible way to treat by adding 1 hormone at a time and see what happens. Some of my hormone abnormalities can be because im 40 and estrogen dominance is a common thing in men over 40. So in general i think my doctor is treating me appropriately and im happy with the way he is going about it as jumping the gun can be dangerous, a wait and see approach is sometimes a better way to treat certain conditions.
    Thanks for the links i will have a read. I do double check what doctors tell me, researching etc and dont take what they say as gospel.
    There seems to be some anger in your response, you need to take a deep breath and be calm, i have it all under control.

    cheers!!!
  12. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi heapsreal it's not anger, more dispair and is in no way diffected at you. I just wish doctors would follow up failed tests results with the other tests that there supposed to do.

    I myself have had wonkey tests results for just under two decades and have had over 25 doctors tell me that there because of cfs, including a supposed CFS expert and all the Doctors at the CFS clinic at the local hospital, and everyone of them has been wrong. I have Hemochromatosis which they've all missed because of thinking CFS was causing the results, and i have suffered needlessly all this time because of it. It's only by sacking heaps of doctors and looking up everything myself that i have found this out.

    I know Natural killer cell dysfunction is being promoted as a sign of CFS but CFS is not the only cause of this, i to failed this test, in my case it's caused by hemochromatosis theres an article about it here if your interested
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11045759?dopt=Abstract

    I've also read alot of the studies done on CFS and low cortisol, Dhea etc, and to me they are just futher evidence of the appalling investigations that have been done on this condition. the reason i think this is that although at first they appear good, selected a group of cfs patients, run the tests etc found some people with low cortisol dhea etc.

    At no point have they ever run the tests to see if these people actualy have got the diseases that can cause the lack of these hormones ie Auto immune Adrenal insufficiency, Addisons, Hemochromatosis, Amaloydosis, Sarcoidosis etc, etc, etc which all have identical or very similar symtoms to CFS, so at the end of the day for all anyone knows these studies could of just been done on a group of people with an assortment of adrenal diseases and there might not of been anyone with cfs in them. To me it's just bad science and they should know better! But then where CFS is concerned Logic and medicine seem to have parted ways along time ago.

    Once again no negativity directed at you, i wish you all the best and hope things get better for you soon!
  13. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Thats cool, i have gone through a few docs myself before i found the doc i have now. nk dysfunction i usually bring up with docs that dont believe in cfs, i personally believe that cfs is some sort of immune defiencey or maybe xmrv and i do agree with you that theres alot of people misdiagnosed with cfs that have some other sort of illness, but what is cfs???, i think thats why cfs is such a bad name as fatigue is apart of most illnesses. I also believe hormone abnormalities themselves arent generally medical conditions themselves but symptoms of some other illness, as i said earlier, many with chronic illnesses have low dhea etc. I myself have had LH and FSH tested a few years ago and all were good, and i believe at the moment dont need rechecking as my total testosterone levels are in the upper 1/3 of the range which indicates they are working, my freeT is low and E2 is high due to estrogen dominance that i think is related to inactivity that cfs brings us, lack of exercise puts that spare tyre around our guts which increase our aromatise enzymes which convert free T to E2 and my dhea is low from chronic stress of infection causing adrenal fatigue, my cortisol has always tested normal but nothing is black and white. I have had many tests for other conditions and my father actually had hemochroatosis and i have been tested a couple of times for this several years apart and tested negative. I also think many have multiple illnesses for which compound their problems and because this makes them difficult to manage, many docs palm them off as its too much work for them.

    We have to educate ourselves and then find a good doctor that we can then 'drive' so we can get appropriate testing/treatment etc Some dr's are just arogant and dont listen to their patients, but i suppose u get that in every profession.

    All is cool,
    take care
  14. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Yeah totally agree with CFS being a bad name, fatigue is sign of being sick with just about anything, and it goes against all logic that hormone abnormalities can just occur by themselves, there has to be something causeing it! see if there's any tests in the links i gave you that haven't been done yet, maybe they'll throw some light on whats going on?

    When you say you've been tested for hemochromatosis was your transferrin saturation fine? been doing alot of reading on it, and in some people they can be sick for decades before the ferritin goes up, and some people can overload when their only hetrozygous for it, plus they only test for a couple of the genes when they found over forty different mutations. It's another one of those areas where doctors are miles behind the latest research, might be worth another look?

    Arrogant doctors seems to be a world wide problem, but even with the good ones theres about 15,000 different medical conditions and there trying to work it all out in a few minute appointment, i doubt theres any of them that can even remember the names of all the different conditions, let alone there symptoms. I wish they would use diagnostic software, computers don't forget, unlike us.

    All the best
  15. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    Thats why i mention finding a good doc and knowing how to 'drive' them. So was hemochrom the cause of your fatigue or do u have other underlying stuff as well? Altthough im not even close to being anemic as i follow a high protein/meat low carb diet and use b12 injection occassionally, i have noticed on blood tests that when i was feeling sicker then normal my iron levels are lower, maybe its an absorption issue going on as i have chronic IBS runny stools, but this has improved alot since i have been on cycloferon, almost normal in that department which i havent mention in my cycloferon thread. All my original abnormalities with this illness have been immunological, with chronically elevated lymphocytes which my doc assumed was cmv reactivation but some tests are limited here in australia and we cant get viral titre values tested just positive iGg or iGm, so some of it is an educational guess, we just found that these lymphocytes came down with antivirals and went up when off them, so its like putting the maths together and finding 1 plus 1 =2, we have noticed the dhea steadily coming down and now its time to treat this.

    good talking to you, keep me posted on how u go,

    cheers!!!
  16. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi heapsreal, yeah my fatigues caused by the iron, along with all my other vast array of symptoms, interesting what you say about the low ferritin, IBS etc sounds very mal-absorbtion, have you been checked for Celiacs, some people pass the blood tests, but when they have an endoscopy they find out they've got it, info about it here http://celiacdisease.about.com/od/diagnosingceliacdisease/a/celiacdiagnosis.htm There's a tread going on about low ferritin in the diagnostic guide lines etc section if you want to take a look.

    I entered low ferritin and diarrhea into diagnosispro software it comes up with this http://en.diagnosispro.com/differen...-serum-lab-decreased/24920_11876-154_153.html

    Might be worth getting the things on the list checked out, as alot of them could be mistaken for IBS and cause mal-absorbtion which would explain the low ferritin and a lack of essential nutrients would explain why you can't beat a CMV infection, also metals like iron, zinc etc are involved in keeping hormone levels, testosterone etc in balance so maybe it would explain that as well? hope this helps

    All the best
  17. globalpilot

    globalpilot Senior Member

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    Just wonderng about the endoscopy. I had one of those done and it reported there were no abnormalites. Do they check for the blunted villi (as a sign of celiac) as a matter of course ? just wondering if that test rules out celiac for me.
  18. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi globalpilot, I would of thought that they would of checked your villi, but it,s best not to assume that they have, some times when these kind of test are done things can get overlooked. Your doctor should have been sent a report that says what they looked for and what they found, ask them to check it and make sure the villi are ok, if there's any doubt ask them to contact who ever did the endoscopy and make sure everything is ok with them. If they haven't looked at the villi it will have to be redone, It's always best to never make assumtions that things have been done right, sometimes there not and the diagnosis gets missed, it's happened to me.

    All the best
  19. rlc

    rlc Senior Member

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    Hi Diesel, careful you'll get in trouble casting aspersions on xmrv round here, he he. Any chance you could provide more information on what exactly your test results said, if you have any other failed tests,symptoms etc, do you have a diagnosis of hypothyroidism etc. Might be able to trow some light on whats going on for you with a bit more information! Cheers

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