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ADCLS and CFS share common phenotype, study shows.

Dolphin

Senior Member
Messages
17,567
However its a far leap to claim that someone with Lyme must have CFS or visa versa. It happens. Its not universal. The symptom profiles are similar, but in one study the biochemisty had overlap but was different (plasma or spinal fluid proteomics, iirc).

I think you might be thinking of this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21383843.
However the sample in the Schutzer et al. is different to the current (Patrick et al.) study.
All were documented to have had prior Lyme disease which met CDC surveillance case definition criteria [15],

So post-treatment Lyme Disease may be different from CFS, but that doesn't mean alternatively diagnosed lyme disease (i.e. only satisfies the criteria in a speciality commercial lab) necessarily is.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Yes, I'm not sure many are insisting that all ME/CFS = Lyme.

There are a few possible combinations here, though.

One is certainly that Lyme triggers ME/CFS. Another is some people diagnosed with Lyme have ME/CFS - and visa versa. One is that anyone can have both.

The Schutzer/Natelson/Coyle thing was a cool point, but was - surprise - not followed up on that I know of. I thought of a reason when the findings first were released that any inferences from it might be a stretch, but for the life of me I can't remember what they were at the moment. I need to re-read it for the umpteenth time, and even then I probably won't remember.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Same crew? I seem to remember Natelson saying he would be doing a CFS study looking at CSF variables. I was invited to join, but was disqualified because of my Lyme titers.

ETA: The NIH has a long-standing (1997?) Lyme study going that requires a documented history of being 2T positive for inclusion. I am pretty sure that one has to be 2T positive at the time of admittance to the study.

Part of its stated goal is something to the effect of characterizing Chronic Lyme/PTLDS (yes, curious that when this study was launched, it was still ok to refer to Lyme post-treatment as chronic Lyme).

This would be a good audience to test for the CSF proteins. A CSF draw is part of the protocol. Accordingly, this would seem to be an ideal vehicle to mine at least a portion of the Schutzer et al effort. If the NIH could replicate similar results in this Lyme population, then perhaps an independent ME/CFS effort could approach that population. I am told, however, that only the usual metrics will be employed on most of this NIH study's participants (i.e., ELISA, WB and C6)
 
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Antares in NYC

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
USA
I find it amazing how people who don't have Lyme or had to deal with the desperately unending misery that it brings, can non-chalantly tell others that their disease doesn't exist.

I always hope those people or their loved ones never get it, frankly. I'm pretty sure they would be looking for alternatives and answers faster than you can say "collusion."

Ps: it's just a matter of time, as truth tends to be stubborn and every year more research studies come out about the wily persistence of borrelia. The end of IDSA's reign on all things Lyme will come, as the evidence and the sheer number of affected people keep growing.
 
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Antares in NYC

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
USA
The only thing that's "alternative" about IgeneX is that none of the IDSA Lyme panel members hold any patents or make money off of it... unlike the official and extremely flawed two-tiered tests that miss up to 50% of cases.

By the way, IgeneX is covered by Medicare and provide both their criteria and CDC criteria with their results.
 
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valentinelynx

Senior Member
Messages
1,310
Location
Tucson
The courseof initially untreated Lyme disease in children may include acute infection followed by attacks of arthritis and then by keratitis, subtle joint pain, or chronic encephalopathy. (N Engl J Med 1991; 325:159–63.)

Re: keratitis. It only occurred to me recently that the unexplained "superficial punctate keratitis" with which I was diagnosed in 1995 could be due to Lyme disease. I became ill in 1993, sometime after tick bites and rash (not classic EM, so I didn't think it was worth considering Lyme. Pre-internet ignorance.
 

Research 1st

Severe ME, POTS & MCAS.
Messages
768
A compromise for both sides of the debate:

*Borrelia must be present in some immune suppressed, as Lyme is now not uncommon in society.
*An individual could thus have ME and be Lyme positive and Lyme negative. Both sides of the argument are correct.
*Negative tests aren't certain as they are unreliable and severely affected cases can be tissue bound.
*However untreated Lyme unlikely causes ME, but this doesn't mean ME and CFS patients shouldn't be tested incase they have Lyme as an additional infection which can be treated if caught quickly.

And then you see the light:

The state denial of Chronic Lyme isn't about Chronic Lyme, it's about the immune suppressive agent out there that leads to Lyme becoming chronic.

Hence both sides of the debate are correct.

Lyme is a problem after the 1970's not before.
Something happened back then. The natural cause of Lyme 'turned up' in 1975, when the pathogen was rather older than that. But it wasn't Borrelia Burgdoferi that turned up was it. It was the immune suppressive agent, in people with Lyme, which will be shown in most with neurological ME too in the next few years.


That is what the BS is about with the creation of CFS following a 'mystery flu that never goes away' (what Lyme patients report too - which sounds rather like an EBV that can evade the immune system). State failure in responsibility of who caused the now prolific levels of autoimmune diseases is in play using psychiatry and disease denial of Chronic patients as a closed door.

Millions of people have these impossible to conventionally treat autoimmune autonomic diseases we call 'Lyme' but antibiotics won't work as they can't penetrate the blood brain barrier (BBB) easily. It's far too late for that in people sick for 30 years.

Who's going to open up to the patients there's no effective treatment?
Who's going to own up and admit the immunosupressive agent isn't a hard to catch 'tick bite' but a virus or bacteria you can catch?
Who's going to explain to the patients their whole family (due to genetic factors) may be infected in those who have brothers and mothers housebound, unemployed, with a weird kind of mini AIDS?
No one in control (actually out of control) will do. Only the independent researchers.

The consequence of this is we have the pro Chronic Lyme doctors desperately trying to help patients whilst not getting their licenses suspended, and the CDC sticking to a 5 year plan of chronic fatigue management with CBT GET and PACING, copying the British failed model of 'CFS/ME'.

Two completely opposing ideas cannot both be right. We know that psychiatry failed as fact, for 30 years. Telling 'Chronic Lyme' patients they have CFS won't work now either (due to social media and private testing).

What will work, is transparency, honesty and apologising to the patients for what happened, then moving forward with a plan. This can and will happen, but only when independent researchers force this issue with big studies, multi centre studies in patients with active chemokine/cytokine inflammation and oxidative stress.

On a side note, Dr Lipkin/Dr Hornig's cohort don't have active inflammation. They are the wrong cohort and neuropsychoimmune patients - Dr Hornig's own paper proposes this leads to psychomotor problems (E.g. depression). Conversely Dr Montoya's cohort are infected and inflamed and on antivirals, but the study on his test to differentiate between mild and severe 'CFS' is not permitted to be published and we've been waiting since may 2014.
Waking from a denial coma is tricky for the state, but possible. Embarrassment usually does it. If XMRV was embarrassing (ironically,the world found out CFS patients aren't mental), then finding out multiple family members are infected will be rather more so.

Patients with a misdiagnosis of CFS are already going public testing Borrelia positive, they want others to know. Wait for it on Facebook, youtube as more get tested. (This is actually healthy psychologically to no longer live under the humiliating self censoring behaviour of the shameful 'CFS' patient). Testing positive for Lyme or its co-infection, liberates people mentally.

Chronic Lyme, whatever the cause, needs to be accepted and it's unjust that superior tests (E.g. Germany) are dismissed when the approved B31 single strain antibody test is clearly inferior and based on the fact white blood cells aren't infected! Once that happens, you don't make antibodies, so you test false negative for Borrelia.

Ignoring science buys time and more patients die out. With more time comes a chance a workable treatment will be developed, and then the level of embarrassment is lowered for the state. It's hard to 'research' what you know is the cause. So it's not researched. In time the people who caused this directly will die out from old age, there won't be anyone to blame. Some admission will take place publicly 'we could have done more' but the actual experiments will remain classified. (We saw this with the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment). Obama apologised 38 years (after illegal experiment was exposed and halted) but won't say what the human experiments in African Americans were for. By chance the Borrelia Spirochette is remarkably similar to the Syphilis Spirochette.

Who benefits from this? Not the patients. The state. Some say 'believing' in Chronic Lyme is for 'conspiracy theorists'. Tin foil hatters who think the government control people by absurd notions like the authorities in medical knowledge tell people who never recover from an infection (who were previously healthy) they need CBT to alter the beliefs in an infection and to exercise more and this reduces symptoms.

That would never happen in a sane world, except it did. Science research needs to fix the sickness of greed and profiteering from psychiatry. Lets hope that happens oneday.