AdB12 weird response?

[surfbaby]

Yes, you have to tag me for me to be notified and that is still no guarantee. Lots of times I only find out that someone has tried to reach me after the fact.

My angular cheilitis was at the corners of my mouth and I had a rash on my left jawline, tip of my nose and "down there". I also had huge, angry capillaries circling my pupils. That was the second time. The first, was a swollen and split tongue.

@stridor
I have been wanting to write you for the past 2 weeks, but have been too messed up, especially in my brain. I did finally read your B2 thread when I was more coherent, and I feel embarrassed about complaining about my stuff after reading about yours! You have really been through a lot. Btw, I showed my doc my split lip and he doesn't think it's angular cheilitis.

Anyway I tried everything from changing the dose of the shot from 100-300 mcg, to trying 2 shots a day, to adding various doses of MFolate and SL MB12 during the day. I have settled on 100 mcg injection at 7pm with 1,700 mcg MF (incl 100 mcg MF in my B Complex and 3,000 mcg AdB12), which is too strong some days and not enough on others, with no add'l MF or MB during the day. I don't know why some days 100 mcg seems too strong and other days I get exhausted by the afternoon. Maybe it has something to do with hormone fluctuations. I got really depressed last week during pms time. Today I felt weird jittery surges from late morning until late aftn for no apparent reason (although it was made worse by my not eating until mid afternoon). The jitteriness resulted in me also having tightness in my chest and more constricted breathing at times, where I couldn't take a deep breath.

Sometimes being so hyper names me feel really anxious too, but the brain stuff is the worse. Unfortunately more MF only helps a little and briefly if at all, and if I don't take SL MB within an hour of taking MF, I feel really sick and queasy all over. However if I take SL MB, then I get more amped up and jittery than ever! For some reason I am also more sensitive to LCF now too. It used to make me feel great, and now it either makes me too jittery or doesn't work at all!

This is the most stressful time of the year for me, but for a couple of weeks since the shots I just felt kind of down most of the time, which is not like me. I would forget things I had done just minutes after doing them. I felt more anxious around people, and almost blacked out at the wheel 3x one aftn. Have made other very bad judgements while driving too, got confused about what kind of gas I use, and forgot to lock my car when I went to Costco---all completely unlike me. I am usually very precise and methodical. I started constantly second guessing everything I do, and OCD type behaviors got much worse. All this was starting to make me feel a little nuts! Thankfully I think it's getting a little better.

I find I can tolerate things better at night, which is why I take everything at night now. Also I feel pretty good about the 100 mcg shot dose, since @Freddd says 100mcg absorbed of MB opens almost all layers of healing. He also says that any time he's having symptoms somewhere often means healing is taking place. I have been having brief migrating pains in sciatica and elsewhere in butt/legs for no apparent reason, that cone on suddenly, sometimes last a day or two, and then just disappear.

I did a lot of research and some of my symptoms sounded like what Rich Van Konynenburg called excitotoxicity. Many symptoms could also be overmethylation. Lotus had a post in the "hydroxocobalamin vs methylcobalamin" thread that said those with COMT/VDR snp's (like me) could be more prone to overmethylation.
Although I think you thought I might be more undermethylated (but maybe not now after the shots!).

In Amy Yasko's chart for "B12 Types That Should be Tolerated" it says those with both COMT V158M +/- and VDR Taq +/- (like me) should tolerate Hydroxy and AdB12. Funny because it took a long time for me to tolerate AdB12. I did ok on Hydroxy shots 10 years ago, but I don't remember exactly how they made me feel, and that was before we knew about methylation (It was high doses of folic acid that made me B12 deficient, as I previously told you.) Many people on the forum don't think much of Yasko's findings though, including @Freddd

My MB shot dose might still just be too high, though I think I am slowly starting to adapt. That could be triggering excessive inflammation (like those migrating pains) or a detox of heavy metals, as some of the recent brain issues reminded me of how I felt after the EDTA chelation made me reabsorb some of the arsenic, probably mostly in my brain! I couldn't think straight for over a year, and still didn't feel back to normal even before the MB shots.
Do you think I should try 50 or 75 mcg instead? I could probably eyeball those doses, but then I might get more tired in the afternoons.

After 4 weeks of not feeling like myself anymore I was ready to try hydroxy injections instead, but after doing more research I don't know if I should. There is heated debate about it on the forum, but Freddd makes quite a case for staying with methylB12 in several posts on this page:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylcobalamin-vs-hydroxocobalamin.22173/

I certainly don't want to go backwards, or take something less active like Hydroxy unless as a last resort. I really appreciate your thoughts on this!

 

[stridor]

@surfbaby
I wondered how you were making out. Sorry to hear about the ongoing fight you are having to find your effective doses.

You need a large salt shaker when trying to incorporate anything that I say. I don't think that we are on the same path. My genetics, ailments and symptoms are largely different from yours. I think that advice from someone you can identify with, or shares your genetics, trumps mine any day.

You have all sorts of room to move around with dosing. Most people need around 2.5 mcg of B12 daily. Even 50 mcg injected would be almost 3 weeks worth. The goal is to find out how much you respond the best to. I need to push higher doses to overcome a presumed transport issue and perhaps the having some MTR and MTRR.

I also need less LCF than some of the people on this site too. I take 250 mg every morning.

I am not sure about whether you are over or under-methylated. I have read that any response to B12 indicates that there is a need for it...good or bad. This suggests (if it is in fact true) that you may be undermethylated. But then, you were taking reasonably high doses of mfolate when your genetics did not point to a direct need - not MTHFR ++.

This made me wonder whether you were trying to introduce too many methyl groups. Your reading on all of this stuff eclipses mine by about 10 fold. I had an immediate positive response and moved on to other things. Given your cognitive issues I think that you have done amazingly well with this.

Some of us have tried to tell people on this site that we doubt anyone can really fix methylation if they have "metal" on board. You are right, I was pretty sick and had toxicity issues much of my life. We have identified weaknesses in a system responsible for detoxing the body.

There is no upside in carrying toxins.

I think that the main difference between me and some of the other people here in terms of recovery is that I found and dealt with the things that were messing with methylation.

I guess what I am saying is that if your have identified a point in your story where EDTA made things worse then there is a better than average chance that you have metal on board and it is running interference on what you are trying to do. But we have talked about this before.

If you can get to a place where your life is livable and you have some degree of function again, then you might want to consider doing a hair test and getting the people on the Cutler sites to take a look.

Whatever else is going on around here, we have immune system issues and metal is one of the things that can really skew our response to things. That, and toxins open the door for various infections.

It is hard, isn't it? There are just so many balls in the air sometimes. Did I ever tell you about my 1978 LeBaron? This was a car that I bought for $1000 and I was trying to get it on the road. Finally, all it needed was a horn. It was just a lump of rust and so I went to the wreckers and bought a used horn. It made no difference. So I took it back and got a horn relay. That didn't work either. So then I thought, "I know, it is the contacts in the steering wheel".

Do you know what was wrong with the horn in the end? All three things. It took me almost 2 days to understand that. I was being linear with my thinking and looking for THE problem. That stupid car taught me a lesson that I have used over and over in my recovery.

I don't expect a symptom to necessarily have only one cause.

And since we are on the subject of cars. Please, please, please, don't drive if you are unwell. If you hurt someone it will change your life in ways that you can't imagine. I stopped driving for 11 months in 2011. I also stayed away from my workshop for over 4 years because I could not stand and think at the same time and couldn't be trusted around power tools.

Hope this week goes better.

 

[surfbaby]

I wondered how you were making out. Sorry to hear about the ongoing fight you are having to find your effective doses.

I am not sure about whether you are over or under-methylated. I have read that any response to B12 indicates that there is a need for it...good or bad. This suggests (if it is in fact true) that you may be undermethylated. But then, you were taking reasonably high doses of mfolate when your genetics did not point to a direct need - not MTHFR ++.

This made me wonder whether you were trying to introduce too many methyl groups. Your reading on all of this stuff eclipses mine by about 10 fold. I had an immediate positive response and moved on to other things. Given your cognitive issues I think that you have done amazingly well with this.

Some of us have tried to tell people on this site that we doubt anyone can really fix methylation if they have "metal" on board. You are right, I was pretty sick and had toxicity issues much of my life. We have identified weaknesses in a system responsible for detoxing the body.

There is no upside in carrying toxins.

I think that the main difference between me and some of the other people here in terms of recovery is that I found and dealt with the things that were messing with methylation.

I guess what I am saying is that if your have identified a point in your story where EDTA made things worse then there is a better than average chance that you have metal on board and it is running interference on what you are trying to do. But we have talked about this before.

If you can get to a place where your life is livable and you have some degree of function again, then you might want to consider doing a hair test and getting the people on the Cutler sites to take a look.

@stridor @ahmo @caledonia @whodathunkit @Freddd
Hope you all had happy holidays and wanted to wish you a Happy New Year! It has been a rough ride switching from MB sublinguals to MB injections, but I'm glad I stuck it out. I started trying to post several times, but just couldn't get my thoughts together, esp with the added holiday stress. Thanks @stridor for the LeBaron story!

I knew there would be a benefit to switching to shots when I realized how little I was absorbing from the sublinguals in comparison to how strong the shots were. I'm guessing I was absorbing as little as 1% of sublinguals, because even only (1) 100 mcg shot per day was stronger than (3) x 3,500 mcg doses of sublinguals per day! I could feel improvement in some neurological issues I've had with my brain for years and improvement with eyes and energy, but I was so hyped up and jittery that I couldn't think straight and couldn't function properly for the first 1.5-2 months since starting shots on 10/6/16. From initial doses of 200 mcg, I backed down to 50 mcg/day and then slowly worked my way up.

I just increased to 500 mcg MB shot last night, taken with 3,700 mcg Solgar MF, and 3,000 mcg AdB12. I might need to go back down to 300 or 400 mcg. I've had some increased brain fog, OCD, and flight or flight response when increasing dose too much too soon, but when I don't take enough, I feel tired.

I have a few questions for you:

1) For now I am doing 1 dose of everything at night, but eventually would like to add in a second dose during the day, especially MF since MF has a short half-life (even though I am not MTHFR). Last year I believe @whodathunkit said she did 1 MB shot per day, but also took small doses of MF throughout the day. @stridor you've mentioned that MF helps your brain fog. I think the MB shot might actually last through the whole day, so I was thinking maybe I would just try adding a small amount of only MF when the brain fog starts, usually in the late morning or afternoon, and see what happens. @ahmo my concern is that I remember reading in your FP Guide that you shouldn't take MF without also taking MB at the same time. What do you think?

2) When I had severe neuro damage from a serious B-12 deficiency 10+ years ago, the healing parts of my body would often get worse before they got better. @Freddd saud this happened to him too, because when the nerves regenerate they don't always turn on at the same time, so they can misfire, sending mixed signals, not to mention that nerve regeneration can be painful. I think that could be why this month my brain fog and aphasia could be flared, because overall I feel like I'm doing better mentally and cognitively, until I get stressed. Then the brain fog, OCD, and flight or fight kicks in and I get worked up.

Last month it was a flareup with my ongoing gut issues, despite no change in diet at all (I have been on a strict gut rebuilding diet for years, and until recently my IBS was the best it had been in years). Instead of just morning IBS, I was having terrible gas and runs morning, noon, and night. I doubled my probiotic and that seemed to help a little, but it just suddenly went back to my normal morning only IBS routine right when the brain fog started flaring up this month. So it feels more like some kind of healing cycles. Have you experienced this?

3) I looked at @caledonia links about Cutler, and read that you can't do Cutler while you still have mercury in your mouth. I have many old amalgams in my mouth mostly from the 60's-70's. If you recall, my problem is arsenic, and while mercury didn't show up in recent testing nor in hair analysis in the 90's, that doesn't mean it's not hiding. I do have a holistic dentist (who believes in Christopher Shade's protocol not Cutler), but regardless, I don't have the money or physical ability to tolerate having them all removed. Even the dentist is hesitant to remove anything, because of all my sensitivities. I am still not fully recovered from (8) EDTA IV's I did in 2015 (mostly affected my brain), so I want to be careful. That could be why FP is so hard on me, but I don't want to give it up, because I am definitely seeing overall improvement.

4) I am still not entirely sure that I wouldn't do better on Hydroxy shots (based on my snp's), but as @whodathunkit pointed out, Yasko isn't always right. Also I know that MB is far superior for healing, and I want to make it work for me if I can. There is a lot of heated debate on the forum about Hydroxy vs. MethylB12, and @Freddd is very opposed to Hydroxy. Do any of you know anyone on the forum who takes Hydroxy with great results that I could contact, just to see what their experience has been? Thanks so much!

 

[stridor]

Hi @surfbaby
Well. it certainly sounds as if you are making some progress Nice to hear.
In terms of which form of B12 to try my understanding is that injectable mB12 if left in the light will be changed to hydroxo. If this is true you can just leave 2 or 3 days worth of mB12 exposed to light and then give it a shot.

Fredd is light-years ahead of me on any of this stuff but that said, I have yet to meet anyone on my recovery path who was 100% right, 100% of the time with 100% of people. I don't see a huge downside to trying hydroxoB12 and seeing what you think.

From what I have read, people can get into trouble sometimes with mB12 but not so much with hydroxo. It just might be that hydroxo is a smaller gun.

People should not supplement folate without also taking B12. That has been reasonably established. I don't think that it means that each dose of folate has to be accompanied by a dose of B12....just so long as someone is taking both. I was on 2 needles a day but taking mfolate into the buccal space several time a day.

Two contributors to brain-fog for me were gut and adrenals. Low cortisol can produce pronounced brain-fog and there are many who think that most brain-fog originates with gut problems. Cutler is one BTW.

If you have amalgams, cut back on hot beverages, don't chew gum have them replaced safely one-by-one as needed until you are ready to deal with them. In the meantime, Mg (magnesium threonate is absorbed well), Vit E, Vit C and lots of it...plus selenium. Plus high quality fats - choline and omega 3 to help the brain heal.

If you have a hair test, see if someone on Cutler's facebook page will look at it for you. Sometimes they can tell by the ratios of other things in the test. See if my brother, Brian is able to look at it for you He is a moderator over there.

Hope this turns out to be your year,

 

[caledonia]

@stridor @ahmo @caledonia @whodathunkit @Freddd


3) I looked at @caledonia links about Cutler, and read that you can't do Cutler while you still have mercury in your mouth. I have many old amalgams in my mouth mostly from the 60's-70's. If you recall, my problem is arsenic, and while mercury didn't show up in recent testing nor in hair analysis in the 90's, that doesn't mean it's not hiding. I do have a holistic dentist (who believes in Christopher Shade's protocol not Cutler), but regardless, I don't have the money or physical ability to tolerate having them all removed. Even the dentist is hesitant to remove anything, because of all my sensitivities. I am still not fully recovered from (8) EDTA IV's I did in 2015 (mostly affected my brain), so I want to be careful. That could be why FP is so hard on me, but I don't want to give it up, because I am definitely seeing overall improvement.

Yes, definitely don't do any chelation with mercury in your mouth. You can start doing Cutler's "core four" supplements now to assist with the ongoing mercury exposure.

The mercury can hide on hair tests for 90% of people. The way to interpret it is to get a hair toxic and essential elements test (metals + minerals), then look at the minerals section and see if you have deranged mineral transport according to Cutler's counting rules.

The mercury causes the screwed up mineral transport. So it's like finding fingerprints at a crime scene, instead of catching the culprit red handed.

Ok, how to get rid of the amalgams. They will have to come out some time, as they will eventually go bad. My suggestion would be to do them one at a time. If you go to the Frequent Dose Chelation forum, they can give you ideas on how to supplement and what to do to make it easier.

The Core Four supplements should also help with recovery from the EDTA.

Don't do the Chris Shade protocol. Many people have had adverse reactions to it. http://cutlersuccessstories.weebly.com/what-not-to-do.html

Basically what I did was just have my fillings taken out by my regular dentist as they went bad. I didn't have any real plan, it just sort of happened over a period of several years. I was taking a lot of vitamin C during that time which is one of core four, so I think that was really helpful. I don't remember anything adverse happening, even though I'm very sensitive.

ps. Some people go to Mexico to get their fillings out, it's a lot cheaper.

pps. mercury + arsenic = chemical sensitivities. I also have this issue.

 

[caledonia]

Hi @surfbaby
If you have a hair test, see if someone on Cutler's facebook page will look at it for you. Sometimes they can tell by the ratios of other things in the test. See if my brother, Brian is able to look at it for you He is a moderator over there.

Hope this turns out to be your year,

Didn't know Brian was your brother. He is a whiz at this stuff!

@surfbaby - yes definitely do this if you can. There are other things they can glean from the test, such as adrenal issues, other metals, are you a fast or slow detoxifier, etc.

 

[surfbaby]

Well. it certainly sounds as if you are making some progress Nice to hear.
In terms of which form of B12 to try my understanding is that injectable mB12 if left in the light will be changed to hydroxo. If this is true you can just leave 2 or 3 days worth of mB12 exposed to light and then give it a shot.

Two contributors to brain-fog for me were gut and adrenals. Low cortisol can produce pronounced brain-fog and there are many who think that most brain-fog originates with gut problems. Cutler is one BTW.

If you have a hair test, see if someone on Cutler's facebook page will look at it for you. Sometimes they can tell by the ratios of other things in the test. See if my brother, Brian is able to look at it for you He is a moderator over there.

Hi @stridor
So nice to hear from you! You've mentioned before that MB can change into Hydroxy when left in the light, but I've never heard that elsewhere. I will research further before trying it, but don't want to give up in MB just yet. The anti-Hydroxy people on the forum, including @Freddd believe it can cause serious problems, but I am still keeping an open mind. Just want to give the MB shots a little more time. I'm doing ok with the latest increase to 500mcg so far.

Do you think I think I should try adding a second injection, and do 2 smaller ones instead? I think you waited awhile before adding in a 2nd shot. Right now I think I one is enough, but I'm wondering if I'm opening up methylation enough with just the one dose. Haven't tried the extra MF yet, but will test out a small amount.

BTW, as I asked in my previous post, did you ever experience something flaring up right before it got better as part of your neurological healing, as I have? Or maybe I'm wrong about that, though I'm sure @Freddd described that happening to him too.

Thanks for the reminder about the low cortisol. I know that is definitely a factor for my brain fog. Do you have any suggestions for supplements, etc for that? Meditation, taking breaks, and anything to reduce stress does help. I have heard about the gut being the main factor. Since I'm limited with adding things into my diet and don't do well with fermented foods, I think I will try increasing to 3 probiotics a day. I take Klaire Labs Therbiotic Complete, a high-end product that has the most variety of strains I've seen, and while expensive, it's worth trying the increase. Do you have any probiotics you recommend? I've thought about adding saccharomyces boulardii, but I'm sensitive to yeast, so don't know if that's a good idea. Also I think the lignans in my Flax Oil might be a gut irritant, because my gut recently got better when I cut back from 4 Tbs/day to 2 Tbs/day, but might have been a coincidence.

I will look further into hair test. Is your brother, Brian, the same one who was seriously ill a few months ago? I sincerely hope he was able to recover. I am already taking good amounts of the omega 3 and the supplements you mentioned, except only the selenium that is in my multiple. Need to check on choline. How many mg of each do you recommend? Do you know if Ester-C is ok instead of regular Vit C? It's much easier on my stomach.

Lastly, some close members of my family have been very unkind lately about my illness. They are healthy and have never understood what I am going through. I have tried to educate them, but they don't hear it. They've been picking on me a lot more lately, because I'm not getting well fast enough to suit them. The protocol has set me back at times, but I know that can be part of the process of figuring it all out. They say that by being supportive they are only enabling me and encouraging me to remain ill. They believe that if they withdraw their support, that will force me to get well. I think if I had a more "acceptable" disease they would feel differently. Maybe you don't experience this because many in your family had the same exposures as you. I get complete support from my doctors, one close family member, and a few close friends. I am so sad about this and trying not to let this knock me down, but I feel flattened. I believe in love, support, and encouragement. I'm sure I can't be the only one and that others on this forum must have experienced this with their families and friends...

 

[surfbaby]

Yes, definitely don't do any chelation with mercury in your mouth. You can start doing Cutler's "core four" supplements now to assist with the ongoing mercury exposure.

The mercury can hide on hair tests for 90% of people. The way to interpret it is to get a hair toxic and essential elements test (metals + minerals), then look at the minerals section and see if you have deranged mineral transport according to Cutler's counting rules.

Hi @caledonia
Thanks for writing back and for the hair test info. I will look into it further.. Can you please tell me or send me a link to the Core Four supplements? I searched but couldn't find them. I'm guessing that Vit C is one of them, and wondering if I can take Ester-C instead of regular Vit C? It's the only one my stomach tolerates, but if not, I will try whatever brand you might suggest.

My gut flared up badly a month ago, but has gone back to my usual IBS-d in the morning only. I doubled my probiotic (Klaire Labs Therbiotic Complete), and that helped a little, but I think my gut got temporarily worse as part of a healing cycle from adding in MB shots. @Freddd said when the nerves regenerate they don't always turn on at the same time, so they can misfire, sending mixed signals, and that when a symptom of his was flared up, healing taking place was often the reason. I think that used to happen to me too 10 years ago when I healed from B-12 deficiency related nerve damage with injections, though so many factors are involved it's hard to say.

Anyway, since I'm limited with adding things into my diet (my diet is basically the 4R gut rebuilding diet), and I don't do well with fermented foods, I think I will try increasing to 3 probiotics a day. Therbiotic Complete has the most variety of strains I've seen, and while expensive, it's worth trying the increase. Do you have any probiotics you recommend? I've thought about adding saccharomyces boulardii, but I'm sensitive to yeast, so I don't know if that's a good idea. What do you think? Also I think the lignans in my Flax Oil might be a gut irritant, because my gut recently got better when I cut back from 4 Tbs/day to 2 Tbs/day, but might have been a coincidence. I will try cutting back on that. If that's the culprit, I will switch to fax w/out lignans.

Do you have any suggestions for supplements for low cortisol? I know that is definitely a factor for my brain fog. Meditation, taking breaks, and anything to reduce stress does help. I have heard about the gut being one of the main factors for brain fog too. Thanks!

 

[caledonia]

Hi @caledonia
Thanks for writing back and for the hair test info. I will look into it further.. Can you please tell me or send me a link to the Core Four supplements? I searched but couldn't find them.

This is the Core Four. You don't have to take the amounts recommended if you can't tolerate that much. I'm not able to at this time. Maybe I'll be able to work up to it one day.

• VITAMIN C – 4 grams or more, one with each meal and one at bedtime. Can take up to 12 grams, or up to bowel tolerance, to reduce side-effects of chelation and oxidative damage caused by mercury.
• VITAMIN E – 1200iu. It is fat soluble and can be taken once a day. This is a VERY IMPORTANT option. Vit. E is a potent anti-oxidant and will balance out the over-oxidizing effect of moving metals, and mercury in particular. Mercury causes oxidative damage wherever it goes and Vit. E and Vit. C help to repair it. Only buy natural Vit E. Natural Vitamin E begins with a d, as in d-alpha-tocopheroland the synthetic variant begins with a dl, as indl-alpha-tocopherol.
• MAGNESIUM – in absorbable forms like citrate, malate, aspartate, or amino acid chelate – 50-100mg several times a day up to 750 mg and adjust lower if diarrhoea. People with weak adrenals should not use Magnesium Oxide as it uses up stomach acid. Magnesium is one of the supplements that poisoned people need a lot of. You can also take pharmaceutical grade Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulphate) 1/4 – 1/2 teaspoon 4 times a day (don’t take Epsom salts at the same time as Calcium supplements however as it can create an indigestible by-product)
• ZINC – 50 to 100 mg spread out during day (especially copper toxic people). Everybody needs this.
  
  

I'm taking Thorne zinc picolonate 7.5mg, which is 1/2 of one pill. This is enough to stop the white spots on my fingernails (sign of zinc deficiency). Then also Solgar vitamin E, 400mg which is one pill. I cover the vit. C and magnesium I take below.

I'm guessing that Vit C is one of them, and wondering if I can take Ester-C instead of regular Vit C? It's the only one my stomach tolerates, but if not, I will try whatever brand you might suggest.

I think Ester-C is fine. I started having trouble tolerating vit. C too. I'm doing Navitas brand Camu Camu (a berry which is dried and ground into a powder). I fill up an empty gel cap and then take 1/4 of that twice a day. I think 1 tsp is 1000mg or something. So maybe I'm getting a couple hundred mg?

Do you have any probiotics you recommend? I've thought about adding saccharomyces boulardii, but I'm sensitive to yeast, so I don't know if that's a good idea. What do you think?

I've done Vinco's probiotic in the past for lacto/bifido (two of those). I'm currently doing Da Vinci Mega Probiotic ND 50. The ND stand for Non Dairy. It's stronger, so I only do 1 of those.

I also do Now brand Sac. Boulardii. Sac. Boulardii is supposed to help with IBS among other things, so it might be worth a try.

Do you have any suggestions for supplements for low cortisol? I know that is definitely a factor for my brain fog. Meditation, taking breaks, and anything to reduce stress does help. I have heard about the gut being one of the main factors for brain fog too. Thanks!

There are lots of things which can be done for low cortisol. Adrenal cortex extract helps a lot of people. I found it to be too overstimulating. If I get into a long period of extra stress, I do a small piece of a Dr. Wilson's Adrenal Rebuilder, which is more or less the same thing, but gentler.

Otherwise, I just manage with replacing electrolytes, which will leak out like crazy if you have low cortisol.
That would be magnesium for sure, and possibly potassium. Also sodium, especially if you're craving salt or salty foods like potato chips.

If you have muscle twitches, heart palps, restless legs screwing up sleep so you wake up exhausted, etc. that is a clue you need mag and/or potass (the deficiency symptoms are very similar).

I do Pure Bulk magnesium glycinate which has no fillers. I do Now brand potassium gluconate. Then a pinch of Celtic sea salt, although any sort of salt with the least amount of fillers is fine. Like pickling salt, or some kind of non-iodized salt. I mix all these in a glass of water and drink it four times a day, as they deplete rapidly.

When I started methylation supps I needed 3000mg of potassium. Now four years later I only need 50mg. I've always needed a lot of mag. I'm doing around 2000mg at this time.

Also if you're not digesting well, you may need some betaine hydrochloride to raise stomach acid. Low stomach acid can occur with low cortisol.

 

[stridor]

@caledonia - I started chelation a few months before Brian and pushed through it in a very unhealthy way. It is also interesting that the farm where we were exposed to Hg is just outside of a town called, Caledonia. You have just entered the Twilight Zone.

@surfbaby - I never heard about the light changing mB12 to hydroxo anywhere else either. Freddd wrote it. What are people saying that hydroxo does that it so bad? I also just assumed that it would not be as effectual if a person had any downstream problems in attaching a methyl group to B12.

In order for it to get into any mischief it would need to be biologically active and I do not think that it is supposed to be. Therefore, if people are reacting poorly to it it might be because it is relying on an already short supply of methyl groups???

But it is a moot point in your case because I believe that even people who start on hydoxo have the goal of shifting to mB12 and you are already there. I don't know of any good reason for someone who is tolerating mB12 to switch to hydroxo. But I only draw from my personal experience.

I was on one injection a day for around a year....a bit less, maybe. At that time I was also injecting the other B vitamins in the RDA range. This was to help with the difficulty that i had been having getting B2 on board. Since it was a ml and the B12 was another ml I didn't want to increase the volume. That is why I added the second injection.

After I stopped the injected B's, I just carried on as I prefer to use insulin syringes.

Trying to decrease mB12 catches up to me within a week the four times tried. I do not know whether it is a problem with daily intake or if half-life of injected B12 is also an issue. I am doing really well right now and will consider another attempt perhaps later this spring.....perhaps.

If you do decide to try 2 doses, then just split the 500 mcg that you are taking now and see if you notice any change.

Freddd had the flaring of symptoms related to healing of nerve pathways. I had the changes in the first 12 days that we used to call "detox symptoms" but I did not have what you describe. Keep in mind that at the time I still had active stealth infections. The low grade encephalitis associated with some of these infections, one might reasonably anticipate, could slow down any healing process.....and therefore any symptoms associated with it.

Adrenals and retinas are the two tissues highest in Vit C in our bodies. It is a reasonable assumption that adrenals like lots of C, also B5, adrenal cortex extract = ACE, and some of the adaptogens. Ashwagandha is often mentioned but I have no experience with that. I have been taking hydrocortisone for the last 6 years.

My adrenals never made it. Some of that was related to the mistakes I made in the first 2 years of recovery. Just pushing chelation too hard and taking a form of Vitamin C that I don't think I was absorbing. Vitamin C is one of the most important things we can take when we have metal on board. EsterC is fine. I would be in the 4-5 gms a day range.

It is hard to know. The great apes take in around 6 +gms a day and I suspect that our physiology isn't much different. Most multi's do well with selenium doses. It is a cheap ingedient.

I took Genestra HMF and it helped me with the B2 absorption back in 2012. Since I had the colon removed I do not tolerate any commercial probiotic. What I do tolerate is coconut kefir which I make myself. My dietary intake of coconut is similar to people in the South Pacific.

I have not been diagnosed but clearly have SIBO which goes hand-in-hand with the operation I had. As I have said, I was breaking out in hives about 4x every day. Patches the size of a softball up to half my torso. People with histamine problems are supposed to shun fermented foods but I wanted to try to lower the ph in the small intestine so I decided to give kefir a try.

I chose coconut because I can't do dairy. Flax was an irritant for me as well.

The one thing that I did before beginning was a round of humaworm - https://www.humaworm.com/
To be clear, I suspect that products like this decrease overall bacterial counts and will adjust the ratios....even if only temporarily. I had a herx reaction and then felt pretty good.

It was a different brother who has been ill. Brian has had to fight off a cold but is doing OK.

There isn't much you can do about family and friends at this point. They will think that you are somehow benefiting from being ill and would be well if you'd just listen to your Dr. They will not be keen on you consulting Dr Google all the time.

I am not riding around on a tall horse. I remember thinking that Hg-tox was bullshit and just a ploy of naturopaths to dig into people's savings. How likely was it that they would be ill and I was "fine" when I had so much more in terms of exposure to Hg?

Meanwhile, I had Bipolar Disorder which is reserved for the worst of the toxic! Mad as a Hatter.

I also thought that people with fibro and adrenal fatigue were histrionic. I lacked understanding and compassion. So, I understand where these people are coming from.
Small consequence at this time but everything changes when you recover. People listen to me now.

 

[surfbaby]

This is the Core Four. You don't have to take the amounts recommended if you can't tolerate that much. I'm not able to at this time. Maybe I'll be able to work up to it one day.

• VITAMIN C – 4 grams or more, one with each meal and one at bedtime. Can take up to 12 grams, or up to bowel tolerance, to reduce side-effects of chelation and oxidative damage caused by mercury.
• VITAMIN E – 1200iu. It is fat soluble and can be taken once a day. This is a VERY IMPORTANT option. Vit. E is a potent anti-oxidant and will balance out the over-oxidizing effect of moving metals, and mercury in particular. Mercury causes oxidative damage wherever it goes and Vit. E and Vit. C help to repair it. Only buy natural Vit E. Natural Vitamin E begins with a d, as in d-alpha-tocopheroland the synthetic variant begins with a dl, as indl-alpha-tocopherol.
• MAGNESIUM – in absorbable forms like citrate, malate, aspartate, or amino acid chelate – 50-100mg several times a day up to 750 mg and adjust lower if diarrhoea. People with weak adrenals should not use Magnesium Oxide as it uses up stomach acid. Magnesium is one of the supplements that poisoned people need a lot of. You can also take pharmaceutical grade Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulphate) 1/4 – 1/2 teaspoon 4 times a day (don’t take Epsom salts at the same time as Calcium supplements however as it can create an indigestible by-product)
• ZINC – 50 to 100 mg spread out during day (especially copper toxic people). Everybody needs this.

I'm taking Thorne zinc picolonate 7.5mg, which is 1/2 of one pill. This is enough to stop the white spots on my fingernails (sign of zinc deficiency). Then also Solgar vitamin E, 400mg which is one pill. I cover the vit. C and magnesium I take below. I think Ester-C is fine.

You said I could start the Core Four now even with ongoing Mercury exposurev(still have old fillings), and that
You said The Core Four supplements should also help with recovery from the EDTA.

 

[surfbaby]

the Core Four. You don't have to take the amounts recommended if you can't tolerate that much. I'm not able to at this time. Maybe I'll be able to work up to it one day.

• VITAMIN C – 4 grams or more, one with each meal and one at bedtime. Can take up to 12 grams, or up to bowel tolerance, to reduce side-effects of chelation and oxidative damage caused by mercury.
• VITAMIN E – 1200iu. It is fat soluble and can be taken once a day. This is a VERY IMPORTANT option. Vit. E is a potent anti-oxidant and will balance out the over-oxidizing effect of moving metals, and mercury in particular. Mercury causes oxidative damage wherever it goes and Vit. E and Vit. C help to repair it. Only buy natural Vit E. Natural Vitamin E begins with a d, as in d-alpha-tocopheroland the synthetic variant begins with a dl, as indl-alpha-tocopherol.
• MAGNESIUM – in absorbable forms like citrate, malate, aspartate, or amino acid chelate – 50-100mg several times a day up to 750 mg and adjust lower if diarrhoea. People with weak adrenals should not use Magnesium Oxide as it uses up stomach acid. Magnesium is one of the supplements that poisoned people need a lot of. You can also take pharmaceutical grade Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulphate) 1/4 – 1/2 teaspoon 4 times a day (don’t take Epsom salts at the same time as Calcium supplements however as it can create an indigestible by-product)
• ZINC – 50 to 100 mg spread out during day (especially copper toxic people). Everybody needs this.

I'm taking Thorne zinc picolonate 7.5mg, which is 1/2 of one pill. This is enough to stop the white spots on my fingernails (sign of zinc deficiency). Then also Solgar vitamin E, 400mg which is one pill. I cover the vit. C and magnesium I take below. I think Ester-C is fine.

@caledonia Thanks for The Core Four. You said even with mercury in my mouth I could still start The Core Four now to help with the ongoing mercury exposure, and that The Core Four supplements should also help with recovery from the EDTA.

Is there any chance that it could make me worse at first, as in a detox reaction? So far I have only tried increasing an excellent natural Vit E called Unique E that I've taken for years from 400IU to 800 IU. I've been having terrible brain symptoms, but I think it's probably from increasing my MethylB12 shot dose too fast, and not from the Vit. E. Just wanted to check with you. Thanks!

 

[stridor]

Yes, @surfbaby you can take the Core Four if you have amalgams in. As I said before, I would add selenium to that. Not only does it bind to mercury rendering it inactive, it is also a key ingredient in glutathione peroxidase which protects the body from oxidation. Mercury symptoms are related to messing with enzymes and oxidation.

These are well tolerated but there are always people who react to things. Even Vitamin C. When it comes to the antioxidants, remember that they work as an orchestra and are not soloists. The E is there because it is fat soluble and C is water soluble. It is better to take a bit of each rather than push either hard.

I'm with you though. I suspect the B12.

 

[caledonia]

@caledonia Thanks for The Core Four. You said even with mercury in my mouth I could still start The Core Four now to help with the ongoing mercury exposure, and that The Core Four supplements should also help with recovery from the EDTA.

Is there any chance that it could make me worse at first, as in a detox reaction? So far I have only tried increasing an excellent natural Vit E called Unique E that I've taken for years from 400IU to 800 IU. I've been having terrible brain symptoms, but I think it's probably from increasing my MethylB12 shot dose too fast, and not from the Vit. E. Just wanted to check with you. Thanks!

Basically what Stridor said. What kind of brain symptoms?
You could try going back to your previous vit. E and vit. B12 levels which were tolerated, get stable, then try increasing vit. E only and see how it goes. That should help narrow it down as to what is causing what.

 

[surfbaby]

Yes, @surfbaby you can take the Core Four if you have amalgams in. As I said before, I would add selenium to that. Not only does it bind to mercury rendering it inactive, it is also a key ingredient in glutathione peroxidase which protects the body from oxidation. Mercury symptoms are related to messing with enzymes and oxidation.

These are well tolerated but there are always people who react to things. Even Vitamin C. When it comes to the antioxidants, remember that they work as an orchestra and are not soloists. The E is there because it is fat soluble and C is water soluble. It is better to take a bit of each rather than push either hard.

I'm with you though. I suspect the B12.

@stridor @caledonia I really do think it's the MB12, but will allow myself to stabilize on previously better tolerated lower dose of 200mcg shot, then increase the Vit E to 800 IU. There is 200mcg (286% of daily value) of selenium (as sodium selenate) in my multi. Is that enough for now?

I have been on 2 grams of Ester-C per day for several months, and appear to be tolerating it. Could it be adding to my problems with diarrhea? That has been worse lately but I think it flared up before I increased the Vit C. Again, I think it's related to healing from the MB12, because I often have a flareup before something gets better. Right before my brain got worse, the diarrhea got better, as if my body likes to focus on repairing one big thing at a time with intensity. Since lowering my MB12 shots to 200mcg, my brain is a little better and the diarrhea is suddenly flared up again, with no changes to my diet. Seems like a pattern.

The brain symptoms are: feeling really spaced out and foggy, unable to focus as well because of slight decline in cognitive abilities and slightly worse memory. Also feel like I black out for a split second occasionally. I have a lot of stress with paperwork, taxes, etc. and any kind of stress makes it worse, and then I get upset and even more spun out. My speech (mild aphasia) has even gotten affected a little at times (an old symptom from previous B12 deficiency). There could definitely be hormone involvement, as end of month cycle can affect brain, then I'm usually clear right after that, like right now.

To complicate these factors even further, when I refilled my Rx for MB12, I didn't feel the same after taking a shot of the new batch. I felt kind of weird. The pharmacy claims everything tested perfectly and should be exactly the same strength (they keep it covered in foil while making it), but it might have been a different lot of raw materials. @stridor have you ever had a different reaction from one lot to another of same Rx?

P.S. I am still not ready to switch to Hydroxy shots, even though working with MB12 shots has been a challenge. Every time I read @Freddd 's compelling arguments for MB12 and against Hydroxy on his posts here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/methylcobalamin-vs-hydroxocobalamin.22173/
I feel like it could be a step backwards that could possibly make me worse. @stridor and @caledonia do you have any thoughts?

 

[caledonia]

@surfbaby

Yes, larger amounts of vit. C can cause diarrhea. 2 grams could be enough to do it. If that's the case, backing off if bit should improve it.

Or you could try splitting the dose and taking it 4 times a day instead of in one dose (not sure if that's how you're doing it). The body can only absorb so much at one time, so by splitting up the dose, you may be able to take more without diarrhea.

My suggestion would be to examine the ingredients in the multi and see if there is anything contraindicated in it (like ALA).

If you're doing ok with methylcobalamin, it may not be worthwhile to experiment with hydroxy. Or if you do, not with shots, which are larger amounts. If you decided to experiment with it, my suggestion would be to get a liquid sublingual, then dilute that way down. Then if you have a bad reaction, it will be much less worse.

ps. I did have a bad reaction to hydroxycobalamin (icky toxic revved up feeling), but do ok with small amounts of methyl and adenosyl B12. When I do larger amounts of methyl B12, I crash, very similar to having PEM (achy, extra fatigue). Too much adenosyl makes me overly revved up.

 

[surfbaby]

My suggestion would be to examine the ingredients in the multi and see if there is anything contraindicated in it (like ALA).

If you're doing ok with methylcobalamin, it may not be worthwhile to experiment with hydroxy. Or if you do, not with shots, which are larger amounts. If you decided to experiment with it, my suggestion would be to get a liquid sublingual, then dilute that way down. Then if you have a bad reaction, it will be much less worse.

ps. I did have a bad reaction to hydroxycobalamin (icky toxic revved up feeling), but do ok with small amounts of methyl and adenosyl B12. When I do larger amounts of methyl B12, I crash, very similar to having PEM (achy, extra fatigue). Too much adenosyl makes me overly revved up.

@caledonia @stridor
I checked my multi and nothing contraindicated in it like ALA.

I also get overly revved up on adenosyl if I take too much. When I try decreasing by 1,000mcg, then I feel more tired. It took me over half a year to titrate up to 3.000 mcg/day. I could try experimenting with lowering it again.

I am really hesitant about the Hydroxy. The methyl definitely does affect my brain a bit though. I noticed it even when I was doing lower doses of the sublingual, but more evident now that I'm on shots. Eventually the high amount of ET sublinguals was affecting my teeth (other brands disagreed with me), and I definitely wasn't absorbing more than a few percent, compared to shots. I feel like some of what I'm experiencing is a healing reaction that can happen as nerves try to reconnect, and sometimes can misfire in the process. I experienced that before years ago. But how could I know if it's just not agreeing with me?

Previously you said to watch for mood swings since I am COMT V158M +/- and VDR Taq +/- (Yasko recommends Hydroxy and Adenosyl, and adenosyl can affect me negatively, so hard to know if the Hydroxy will agree with me. I took Hydroxy shots 10 years ago and they gave me more energy right after the shot--don't remember if that was ongoing. I was so sick and had so much damage from the severe B12 deficiency I had then, it's impossible to say exactly how the Hydroxy made me feel overall. Especially since I was also taking methyl sublinguals at the time.)

I don't really have mood swings, but I do get upset at times when I can't think straight. If I could think straight, I would be a lot more even, because then I wouldn't be as frustrated. Also big stressors make me more emotional and shook up when I am too revved up, but I'm hoping I can try to titrate a dose that lessens that. My judgment has been worse at times too, but I think that's related to dose. Also triple-checking myself (or more!) when doing important paperwork, paying bills, etc. because I don't trust my foggy thinking, which can sometimes skip around when I'm trying to concentrate. My serious eye problems makes doing those kinds of things even more difficult even without brain issue. Also being on the computer too much lately irritates my eyes and makes them not focus together, causing a vertigo feeling sometimes.

Can you describe in more detail what kind of moods swings I should be watching for, and what other symptoms I should watch for as far as symptoms that I'm not tolerating methyl?

Since being on the lower 200mcg, my mind is a little sharper, and some of the symptoms mentioned previously have decreased a bit, but I still don't feel completely like myself. Also the diarrhea continues to be worse and now having bad gas too, with no change to diet. As mentioned before, those symptoms dissipated after I increased methyl shots to 300mcg before, but then the brain fog and getting flustered when stressed got worse. (That's why some of it feels like a healing reaction.) So how to choose between less diarrhea/more brain issues or vice versa?

P.S. I had never heard of PEM before so I googled it. Can you recommend any websites?

 

[surfbaby]

@stridor
I just realized that there were several things I wanted to ask you about in response to your Jan 17, 2017 post above, but my eyes and brain will not allow it for now. Meanwhile hope you don't mind I've been tagging you on my recent posts to caledonia, and appreciate any input.

I think some of what I wanted to ask was clarification about your B12 shots, like when you started on methyl, did you have to titrate your dose from a smaller amount initially? When you started doing a 2nd shot was that just the B Complex, or didn't you also try to add in a 2nd methyl shot? I think I recall you had some problems with that, but your wife could tell the difference? I may be confused on that.

 

[surfbaby]

@caledonia @stridor
I just realized something after being on the computer for awhile to write the previous 2 posts above. I think the brain fog/vertigo-like feeling probably caused by an irritation/focusing issue with my eyes when on the computer (that leads to a disorientation between my eyes and brain), is a bigger part of the problem than previously realized. I was pretty much ok before writing the posts, but after doing that and some other stuff on the iPad earlier, now I am completely dizzy and spun out!

The methyl at too high of a dose definitely causes me to get flustered and have some brain issues when I get too revved up, but not sure how much methyl is involved with this computer thing. I am definitely motivated to do more things since being on the methyl, including being on the computer more.

 

[stridor]

@surfbaby
You and I are on different paths when it comes to B12 and methylation. Different trajectory as well since I had all the mercury removed and 100 rounds completed before I started mfolate and mB12. Who knows what my reaction would have been if I had figured out my B12 problem before Hg-tox?

Some of the mood swings associated with COMT can be quite pronounced. And if someone has a history of Bipolar Disorder and prone to skewed judgment, they may need help.

Cutler warns people away from mB12 if they have Bipolar and by heeding this advice I was sick for months longer than necessary and no doubt burned a few neurons. Horrible months.... But, my reaction shows that allowances have to be made for individual response. I took to B12 like a fish to water.

I have never had a reaction to either adenosyl or methylB12....unless the dose was too low. Now, folate is another story and until I added the second needle I was able to experience what I called a "methyl block". Not really sure about that but like I said all I needed was more B12.

Freddd said in a post once that it wasn't methyl block since I was taking mB12. Whatever it was, it responded to niacin and went away when I increased my dose of mB12.

Cutler and Freddd are very bright guys and I shutter to think of where I would be now without them. But try as they might they will not be 100% right. for 100% of people, 100% of the time.

At my peak, I was taking 2 needles + 45 mg sublingual of mB12 and 8.6 mg of adenosylcobalamin daily. This is still well shy of anything that Freddd was doing and while he isn't on my path either, he was the only person I could find at the time that I related to at all.

The B vitamins were added to the morning shot of mB12 and the afternoon was just 1 mg B12. One of these days I will try to cut back again. There has been a shift in my whole metabolism associated with adding low-dose naltrexone,

I have put on 8 much needed pounds of mostly muscle. Muscle tone has improved as well. I still tire too quickly. I have a hard time judging this. I led a Bipolar life and either had more energy than anyone else in the room or was unable to get up off the couch. I don't know what is normal for a guy my age.

I do know that there are people running marathons at 62 and I know that I will not be doing anything like that anytime soon. 25 min treadmill followed by 25 min on the weight machine is where I am at. There will be new tires and tubes on my bike this spring. It hasn't been ridden since 2007. Loss of interest in my bike might have been one of the first signs that my energy levels were changing.

LDN so far has not allowed me to bring foods back which was my hope.

Too much Vit C can contribute to diarrhea. I doubt that you can get around this other than by making your own Liposomal vitamin C. It is cheap and easy. Here is my recipe. There are others.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/how-to-make-liposomal-vitamin-c.19919/#post-412529

If you are Hg-tox you will benefit from high doses of C. Think in the 6-8 gms and higher range. Remember that the great apes consume something like 4 or 6 gms daily and they don't have amalgam fillings. When I was at my sickest Vit C was crucial.