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AdB12 weird response?

Messages
98
You are getting way more B12 than I was back then, Even a 100 mg injected represents 40x daily requirement for most people. Remind me how you came to the dose of mfolate that you take again?
@stridor
Sorry, I just posted a reply to your question above without tagging you, so I thought I better give you a heads up to check my new quick reply above in case you didn't get an alert. Also wanted to add that all of these increases occurred from Oct 2015 to the present.
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@surfbaby
That is how you need to do it and even then be adaptable. Freddd's guides and the other information on this site are suggestions on how to get started but after that we need to figure out our own recipe.

As I told you. I used to take up 6x to 8x the amount of methylfolate that I take now. Dealing with the mycoplasma infection either decreased the amount that I needed to run "my furnace" or healed my gut to the point where I was able to absorb more from my food. Or, of course, there could be something else going on and I have no clue.

So what I am saying is that our recipes can change. Mother Nature is a wonderful and sophisticated gal. Homeostasis really is a work of art. It is almost laughable sometimes, my bumbling attempts to manage my thyroid, adrenal glands and the methylation pathway with pills :)

In a couple of more months I will try to decrease my B12 intake again but I am getting to the place where I am accepting that I need to take two years of it a day. It doesn't make sense that this would be the case but there have been a lot of things that I have had to accept that I don't entirely get.

Have you ever taken anything to boost serotonin? I am thinking principally of tryptophan, 5-HTP or inositol? There are many things that I did on my road to recovery that were immensely useful for where I was at the time but I no longer take now. You would consider something like this I you found yourself anxious....or depressed of course.

On my way out of this mess there were times when I pushed the norephinephrine system too hard but without enough serotonin. For me they are like "ying and yang". In my experience, and as it pertains to me, when I experienced anxiety it was either do to unchecked oxidation or the need for a bit more serotonin. I found inositol quite helpful at one time.

Do you take B6 or P5P?
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Freddd says to keep steadily increasing both, but I'm not sure at what point that should change
I guess that means until you're some version of symptom-free. For me, discovering that green vegetables were blocking folate, and quitting them, brought my whole regimen to an abrupt climax. As I was already mid-detox, I was thrust into an accelerated process. By the end, my folate doses were reduced by half (later again by half, after switching to sublingual instead of swallowing). And the B12 also decreased by about 1/2.

Since then, too little folate is easy to determine: hair loss within hours. And I pretty much keep the B12 pegged to the folate, I guess. I tried further increases in B12, but there seemed to come a point at which there was no further gain. But I've had no revisit of any of the neurological symptoms I had prior to Freddd's. good luck.:hug:
 
Messages
98
You are getting way more B12 than I was back then, Even a 100 mg injected represents 40x daily requirement for most people. Remind me how you came to the dose of mfolate that you take again?
@stridor
I just did my first 2 injections and wanted to run that by you, but first wanted to clarify the above from your post on Sunday. I've experienced in the forum where people (including me) inadvertently mix up "mcg" and "mg" and often it's just a typo. I just wanted to make sure that you didn't think I was thinking about doing 100mg injected, because I was contemplating 100mcg to 200mcg, not mg! I just wanted to make sure you weren't thinking that my doses are 10x higher than they are!

Since my MB SL dose is 3,750mcg (that's 3.75 Enzy's), 3x/day (AM, Aftn, & PM), I decided to start with about 5% of that or 200mcg injected at my PM dose. I took my usual 1,500mcg of Solgar MF first, and my usual SN AdB12 after (around 3mg or 1/4+1/8 of an 8.6mg). I ended up going with that more conservative MB dose because of what you said about being able to add more, but not being able to take it back!

It went pretty well, no allergic reaction, and I barely felt the needle like you said. I could feel it working immediately, in my eyes (vision more clear and less light sensitivity), mouth/lips (taste, slight burning, lip dryness), and brain. My brain felt more alert at first, but I got tired after an hour or two, which is not unusual for me at night anyway. I tend to get away with more B-12 when I'm tired, which is why I can only tolerate AdB12 at night. I was glad that I didn't have any intense pain in my feet or lower legs, which happened years ago with my severe B-12 deficiency when neurological healing was rapidly triggered from big doses of MB. However I did have increased tingling in my lower legs, which sometimes happens to me with increased doses of MB, I believe as also a healing response. I'm sure I still have lots of neurological damage throughout my body that can hopefully still be healed. I had no trouble sleeping. I felt about the same as usual when I woke up, possibly a little better.

Because I took the dose last night at a time when I'm much more tired, I wasn't sure how that dose would hold up with how I feel in the morning. I was originally only going to try it at night for awhile, but since it went so well and I was excited, I decided to take it again this morning after the same 1,500mcg MF AM dose. But this time I decided to try 300mcg injected to see how it affected me when I'm less tired. Well that might have been too much!

Initially my eyes felt better, mouth/lip thing happened again, but I felt too keyed up in my brain. I had to do an important application online (bad timing), but my brain just couldn't focus with clarity enough for me to feel confident in what I was doing. That led me to keep double-checking myself, which in turn made me more frustrated with myself for being "OCD", even though it's the brain fog that triggers all of it. (Does that ever happen to you?)

I finally got it done, but by then the somewhat mild brain fog turned into big brain fog about 2 hours after the injection. Now at 4 hours after the injection, my brain fog is much better, and I feel pretty good, but the same lower leg tingling has kicked in as last night (I'm taking that as damaged nerves waking up). When I healed from major leg/feet damage before, there was a period of time of intense tingling and pain as the nerves started waking up and trying to communicate with each other, sometimes misfiring at first during the healing process.

I am just going to play it by ear for now, but hoping for some input from you and @ahmo about the following: If this injection lasts until evening, I would really love to try decreasing taking MF and MB to 2x/day instead of 3x/day. That would make my life a lot more manageable. Usually I crash in the afternoon and need that middle dose of both. Even though I've been on the protocol for almost exactly 1 year, do you think my doses of MF and MB are still too low to decrease to 2x/day? @Freddd recommends starting with 3x/day to 4x/day because of the short MF half-life. I think you're at 2x/day, and I believe @ahmo is, though I think you take more as needed throughout the day. Can you refresh my memory? If so, at what point did you both decrease to 2x/day?
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@surfbaby
Yep, typo! Sheesh...I'd like to say that it was the first time too but that would be wrong.
Congrats on doing your first 2 injections. Freddd had a lot of peripheral nerve stuff. All I ever had was parathesia and only a mild case of that. All my symptoms were related to CFS and mental functioning.

My B12 injections are twice daily but in the beginning I was taking another 30 mg (got it right this time) spread throughout the day. Only this year has the mfolate intake decreased. When I was at your stage of recovery I was taking it many times a day, pouring a bit under the tongue.

The next time the needle gives you fog you might want to try that. Folate into the buccal pouch. If you have a bad reaction just rinse out your mouth and put a stop to the absorption.

I was pretty stable and had been at a plateau for maybe a year before I started backing down the doses of either one. You are processing B12 differently that myself. I don't find it activating beyond helping with CFS. I can take it at bedtime if I want. (This is the same for other things as well. I take a thyroid pill at bedtime and 5 mg of hydrocortisone and certain people would find them activating as well.)

But in the end, it is not the dose that determines whether you take it twice a day, it is your tolerance. That said, you should be able to drop the injections if you are getting it into the sub-Q. It will slowly enter the system and this will give the needle a longer half-life that sublingual.

It is the mfolate that has the short half-life and I don't think that you can drop the frequency until your symptoms are stable. I always had a cap in my shirt pocket to take little nips from. As I told you before, I never measured or doled it out. I took as much as I my body directed. It was all symptom-based and the symptom was brain-fog.

I am at once or twice a day with the folate now but I have eliminated the mercury, dealt with the infections and have soothed my poor gut with the coconut kefir. That is, I have worked on the things that tripped up my metabolism in the first place.

I eat more than my share of fruit and veggies everyday. My smoothies have 2 bananas and the amount of frozen fruit that would fit in my hands if they were cupped together. Lunch and supper 2/3 of my plate is filled with various veggies which are almost always raw.

Even with my MTHFS heterozygous I have the potential to create some folate from the folicin. This is what I think is working better and it started earlier this year when was finishing up the antibiotics. At that time I did a parasite cleanse and started the coconut kefir.

I had a lot of skin problems and I used to wonder what my poor gut lining was like. It is an epithelial tissue as well. The coconut seems to be soothing and my skin problems are better including the breakouts of hives. I wonder whether my gut has been able to heal a bit too.

On the other hand, I have not been able to successfully bring back any of the foods that I have lost over the years.
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@surfbaby
Also, you might consider what the pharmacist said. The concentration of the B12 you are using may be making it absorb faster. I use 1000 mcg per ml. It could contribute to a longer half-life.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@surfbaby I'm taking B12 twice daily, except once a week, when I take ADB12 only. I take MF 3 times/day. I don't have any experience w/ injections, so can't comment on the relationship between them. Sounds like you're progressing well.
 
Messages
98
I'm taking B12 twice daily, except once a week, when I take ADB12 only. I take MF 3 times/day. I don't have any experience w/ injections, so can't comment
@ahmo thanks for writing. Having some problems transitioning to shots, but trying to figure it out. Having terrible brain fog, but I am going to try to post @stridor right now. Will tag you on it if you want to read. I know you can't comment on shots, but I am also trying to figure out my MF and sublingual MB doses in between shots. I have always taken them together 3x/day, so not sure what to do yet. Couple of pertinent questions:

1. Was there ever a time when you started FP that you were taking MB12 3x/day or was it always twice daily? If so, at what point did you decrease to twice daily? Was it after you had already gotten a lot better?

2. What symptoms do you get that tell you that you need MF? Conversely, what symptoms do you get when you take too much MF or are overmethylating?
I am MTR/MTRR but not MTHFR, so I don't really know for sure when I'm getting low on MF.
When I first started FP, sometimes I would get a feeling like I was going to crash (suddenly feeling exhausted) if I passed my regular dose time, but that hasn't happened in awhile. Usually LCF helps when I feel tired now.

I think the MB shots are lasting a long time (possibly 18-24 hrs), so I'm not sure if I should try a small dose of MF in between or not to continue methylation. However too much MF does give me a histamine reaction or overmethylation, and then I would have to take more MB, which might put me over the top with jitteriness and brain fog.
 
Messages
98
Yep, typo! Sheesh...I'd like to say that it was the first time too but that would be wrong.
Congrats on doing your first 2 injections. Freddd had a lot of peripheral nerve stuff. All I ever had was parathesia and only a mild case of that. All my symptoms were related to CFS and mental functioning.

My B12 injections are twice daily but in the beginning I was taking another 30 mg (got it right this time) spread throughout the day. Only this year has the mfolate intake decreased. When I was at your stage of recovery I was taking it many times a day, pouring a bit under the tongue.

The next time the needle gives you fog you might want to try that. Folate into the buccal pouch. If you have a bad reaction just rinse out your mouth and put a stop to the absorption.
@stridor
It's been a rough 2 1/2 days with shots! I think I have figured some things out and hoping for some input from you. I don't expect a reply on a Sunday night, but I can hope! I have to drive 45 minutes to town tomorrow for food, and need some kind of "normalizing" game plan to pull it off. I'm having brain fog, but will do my best to be as concise as possible.

Prior to shots I always did an approx 7am-1pm-7pm dose of MF followed by Enzy MB around 30 minutes later, most recently 1,500 mcg MF and 3,750 mcg MB each time (adding 3 mg AdB12 at 7pm dose). I don't have any trouble sleeping either with AdB or MB at night, probably due to hormone or adrenal drop, because I always unexpectedly pass out early while watching TV, then wake up after midnight-2am to put myself to bed.

10/6 - After 7pm MF took 1st 200 mcg MB shot (a little more than 5% of my current Enzy 7pm dose). Had some mild symptoms, as listed in previous post, but nothing big.

10/7 - 7am Since I felt about the same as usual when I woke up, possibly a little better, I decided to experiment with another shot. After 7am MF, I took 300 mcg MB shot this time. Way too strong! As mentioned in previous post I started feeling really keyed up in my brain followed by brain fog and other symptoms.

(I'm getting ahead of myself, but it's important to note that I figured out on today 10/9 that it wasn't so much that the shot was too strong, but that I probably still had an active dose of MB in my system from the shot the night before! More details further on. I guess the pharmacist was wrong about the absorption rate? She was just guessing anyway. Previously another pharmacist told me the higher concentrations absorbed slower, so who knows?)

1pm - took regular dose of MF. I thought that would help because brain still feeling too keyed up from a.m. MB shot.
Started having probable overmethylation symptoms - started with burning skin in upper arms and upper back incl neck. (Btw. I get get paresthesia too, but mine is often a burning in the skin instead of prickling.) Then came heart palpitations and tight chest, and some anxiety over it. Maybe taking a smaller MF dose would have helped the MB "overdose" without causing overmethylation (I never tried that before, but after your last post, I tried it today 10/9...read on.) Ate eggs and chocolate. Did not help.

1:55pm took regular dose of Enzys
Thought I started feeling a little better right away (maybe just anxiety better?), but still having heart palpitations. Burning skin a little better. Everything continuing to be better 10-20 min later, incl heart palpitations, feeling a bit more relaxed.
2:35pm still feel hot & slight heart palpitations, but a little jittery now from MB too! Now feel kind of tired too, somehow at the same time!

7pm - Did regular MF dose with no problem now. Decided to do another 200 mcg MB shot. Felt really amped up at first, dissipated somewhat after 1/2 hr, then felt fine by an hour or less.

10/8 - Woke up feeling kind of normal for me, except pain in legs and ankles (figured out later it was symptoms of low potassium that were a problem for me at the startup of Freddd's protocol, but had been resolved since then by supplementing.)

7:30am - After regular MF dose, injected 200 mcg MB (decreased from 300 mcg yesterday a.m.) Took 6 min to taste and feel tongue/lip symptoms instead of feeling instantly this time.

10:30am - Feel tired and body feels heavy. Brain doesn't feel that sharp either.
11am - really tired, feel like crashing. Tried 1/4 Enzy, helped a little, but not much

11:25am - Might be potassium! Ate can of wild Alaskan salmon (high in potassium) then took 4 more 99mg potassium. (Had already taken 3 potassium around 9:40am). 12:05pm - Feel better, but still don't like the way my brain feels, and still feel wobbly with sore legs/ankles. Prob didn't t need that 1/4 Enzy at 11am. Pretty sure it was low potassium, further evidence that the shot doses are stronger than my Enzy doses, and/or last much longer.

1:30pm - took regular MF dose, thankfully no overmethylation, followed by regular Enzy MB dose. Brain still doesn't feel great since a.m. shot though.

7:30pm - took regular MF followed by 200mcg MB shot. Didn't feel brightening for about half an hour, whereas felt right right away before. No negative effects.

10/9 - Woke up feeling ok then started feeling pretty good for me (body and brain), better than last 2 days.
7am - Took regular MF dose
7:45am - took regular Enzy MB dose (not a shot this time). Immediately fell some tingling/prickling parasthesia in side/back of upper arms, followed by tingly legs. Got the feeling the previous night's shot might still be working, because I don't usually have any symptoms from my normal a.m. doses of MF and Enzy MB! I could have probably waited until 1pm or 7pm to take anything!
8:50am - Really started feeling like too much MB - jittery, then started feeling out of it, disoriented, brain fog! Took Potassium & LCF but still feel the same. I feel even worse than when I took the shot yesterday a.m.!

11:55am - after rereading your last post, I tried 1/4 of a 400 mcg Solgar MF (only 100mcg total) under tongue for brain fog. Immediately felt burning back of neck & upper arms and slight inc heartbeat/palpitations. Feel a little more relaxed mentally, but don't like the heart thing. Still some brain fog.

Maybe since I'm not MTHFR, the MF is not the antidote for my brain fog in the above scenario. Maybe the key is not to take too much MB, especially if the last shot is still working. However, if I only do 1 shot a day and don't take any MF in between, I am concerned that will turn off methylation. What do you think?

At least I've figured out that the shots last much longer than I thought! Maybe I only need 1 shot a day and possibly some MF and Enzy in between, but I have no idea how much or when. Do you have any thoughts on this?


I am planning to skip my 1pm MF/MB today and do my regular MF + 200 mcg MB shot at 7pm. Then skip a.m. dose tomorrow. I'm not sure whether to skip or take my regular 1pm MF/Enzy MB before I leave for town or not. I might have started feeling bad if I missed my 1pm dose by a few hours, but that was before the shots. I could bring some MF and Enzys with me if I skip it, but no idea how much to take or when. I've always done everything very systematically up until now. I am not the greatest at noticing subtle changes in my body, esp if I'm preoccupied hitting 3 stores grocery shopping.

I appreciate any input or ideas you might have! I wish I didn't have to go somewhere tomorrow in the middle of this, but no choice.

Lastly, what were your overmethylation symptoms the one time you had to take niacin?
Conversely, what symptoms do you get when you get low on MF and need to take it?

I really don't know what my low MF symptoms would be, other than possibly a tired shaky feeling I got a few times when I was a couple hours late for a regular MF/MB dose. I might have just needed LCF, I'm not sure. Brain fog is not one my symptoms for low MF as far as I know, but I've rarely been late for a dose. Before the bad EDTA reaction and Freddd's Protocol, the only time I usually got brain fog was from hormone fluctuations twice a month or from an allergic reaction. Now it's from either too much MF or MB, or both, but I don't always know which. In the past few days it seems like too much MB was the brain fog culprit, but the other side effects I've experienced from too much MF were slightly worse! That was the first time I think I've ever had overmethylation.
 
Messages
98
eat more than my share of fruit and veggies everyday. My smoothies have 2 bananas and the amount of frozen fruit that would fit in my hands if they were cupped together. Lunch and supper 2/3 of my plate is filled with various veggies which are almost always raw.

Even with my MTHFS heterozygous I have the potential to create some folate from the folicin. This is what I think is working better and it started earlier this year when was finishing up the a
@stridor
Just wanted to add that the majority of my diet is veggies too (esp love broccoli), can't do fruits because of sugar issues. However, due to my own gut problems, which I have been working on for years, but still haven't resolved, I don't know how much folate I am creating from folacin, if any.

I do agree that it is probably too soon for me to skip doses of MF, but when I tried to take that 1/4 tablet (only 100mcg) at 11:55am today mentioned in my post above, I felt terrible! It is now 4 1/2 hours later, and I'm just starting to feel like things are calming down. Maybe it would have worked better if I had waited a bit longer. Actually it probably would have worked best if I had skipped the 7am dose entirely and taken only my regular 1pm MF/MB dose. Maybe that's what I should try tomorrow. However if I still feel great at 1pm, do you think I should just bring MF/MB with me? I'm just not sure what symptoms to look for, as I asked you about in previous post.

I know that only I can figure this out by trial and error, but your input has been invaluable due to your experience and great instincts! Once this current situation has calmed down, I plan to check out all the links you've told me about. I appreciate the opportunity to learn so much from you! Aloha!
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@surfbaby
You have a lot of things going on and I am not surprised that you are finding things confusing.
As I said, I don't have the luxury of a compounding pharmacy which can provide the concentrations of mB12 that you are using and therefore have little to offer in terms of absorption rates. That said, just about any other medication a larger volume would lead to a more rapid uptake. If I had a medicated ointment I know that a weak version over a large area of skin would be more effective than a dab of high concentration.

Just off the top of my head then, it makes sense to me that the higher concentration might have a longer half-life. This is the opposite of what I initially thought. I claim the right to change my mind :)

The drawback of this concentration is that given your response I might be inclined to suggest a small dose and that is extremely hard.

The symptoms of high and low methylation were indistinguishable in me. They were both increased fog and fatigue. There was a therapeutic window that I was aiming for before I increase the mB12 injections. The high B12 via needles and s.l. made methylation overdose a thing of the past.

The s.l. experiment with mfolate seems to suggest that you may not need much and this makes sense as I said before since you are not MTHFR. There are other SNPs to be considered as well such as those that control absorption - I think that FOL is one. But a blood level for folate should tell you whether you are getting it on board.

The next experiment is to confirm the above, if you are up to it. The next time you suspect that you have taken too much mfolate then put a bit of niacin under your tongue and see if it helps.

Currently I am taking about 2 years of B12 a day and maybe 2 days worth of mfolate - plus diet. While I don't know, I suspect that this ratio is not common here. And I am MTHFR and all things being equal I should need even more mfolate than you.

But things are NEVER equal. We have individual needs and I have found and dealt with the causes of my illness. I needed 3 to 4 times this much folate 3 years ago.

I am prone to placebo effect and have to be aware of this all the time when trying anything new.
I also love broccoli and eat it at least twice daily.

I have to cut this short. I have a brother who is critically ill and I need to do a road trip to see him one more time. I will not be available for a few days. You can still message me and I will answer when I am able.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
2. What symptoms do you get that tell you that you need MF? Conversely, what symptoms do you get when you take too much MF or are overmethylating?
The quicckest response I get from too little MF is hair loss. It can shift within hours. Now that I've settled on 3/day dosing, 2mg each, I'm getting no hair loss. While I was still titrating up, I also got sores or acne eruptions.

For me, overmethylation happened from time to time when increasing doses. It was a feeling of euphoria, as noted by Fred, and restlessness, sense of breathlessness, sometimes more overt histamine-like feeling, including itching.
 
Messages
98
Currently I am taking about 2 years of B12 a day and maybe 2 days worth of mfolate - plus diet. While I don't know, I suspect that this ratio is not common here. And I am MTHFR and all things being equal I should need even more mfolate than you.
@stridor
I am so sorry to hear about your brother's illness. Is there any hope of a recovery? I didn't want to bother you while you were going to see him, but thank you for being so kind to offer. I have a very dear older sister and could not imagine her being seriously ill.

Before I go on, in the quote above from your last post, I wanted to clarify what you mean when you say you are taking 2 years worth of B12 a day and 2 days worth of mfolate a day. Do you mean you are taking 2 years worth of the RDA of B12 in just one day and 2 days worth of the RDA of mfolate in just one day? That might not be as much as it sounds considering we don't absorb things like normal people and the RDA's might not be accurate anyway. Just want to make sure I understand.

My symptoms have been all over the place at times, and very evenly stable at other times. I can't figure out what makes it change for certain, other than ongoing problems with mfolate, which is so ironic because I never noticed it bothering me before except for when I increased the dose. Perhaps because I took MF followed by MB like clockwork 3x/day, I was so saturated it just felt "normal" to me after awhile. Since I increased so gradually, I only noticed slight changes in MF symptoms, if at all, and usually it was just fatigue or mild histamine reaction that corrected itself when I also slightly increased my MB right after taking the MF. (Hopefully you don't get confused when I say MF for mfolate and MB for MB12.)

I definitely had some swings in how I felt at times, and wasn't completely happy with how I was doing on FP (Freddd's Protocol), or I wouldn't have felt so strongly about trying out shots again after so many years (esp when my last time around with shots didn't make me feel so great either, but I didn't know about MF then and I was trying out a variation of the Neubrander protocol mostly for autistic children, and popular at College Pharmacy at the time, because I heard it might help CFS, etc. too.)

A quick timeline: 4/2015-8/2015 did EDTA chelation for arsenic that really messed up my brain. 9/2015 tried acetyl glutathione after reading some of Rich's articles, but quit after being sick on it for 3 weeks. Fortunately those articles led me to this forum and FP, which I started 10/2015 and continued faithfully, until now switching to shots.

The swings I've had while on FP usually were brain fog or energy level/pain. Sometimes I just didn't feel right, or didn't feel like "me" anymore (sometimes depressed, which is not normal for me). I thought it might just be part of the healing process or the process of increasing doses. I was kind of evening out as I progressed, but becoming concerned about the high amount of Enzy's (esp the fructose effect on my teeth and expense), and not being able to find any MB substitute I could tolerate. I wondered what it would be like to quit and just go back to how I was before, to remember how I felt (esp in my brain) before I started all this, but that didn't seem right either. I kept gravitating to the shots as a normal progression, although maybe a bit too soon. I would have stayed on SL longer if I could have found a tolerable 5mg MB.

Not to get so personal on "female" issues, but very important to note, I still have sometimes severe hormone fluctuations 2x/month at what would be ovulation and PMS, even though I should be in menopause. (My sister, almost 70, still experiences monthly fluctuations too, but different symptoms.) I had my uterus removed in 1989 due to prolapse, so other than hormone tests that mostly indicate menopause, there is no way to know if I am actually still occasionally ovulating or would have a period. The cycles are unmistakable though, and my primary symptom, esp during the ovulation time which has been happening all this week (usually anywhere from 2nd week to middle of the month) is...brain fog! So you can imagine how it is even more difficult for me to figure out what is triggering my brain fog right now (is it low MF or hormones?) it only adds to the confusion.

I have noticed some very positive effects from the MB shots though. Overall I feel like I'm acclimating to the shots. They seem to be lasting pretty evenly for 24 hours. I was going to reduce to 100 mcg MB shots 2x/day, along with a corresponding dose of 1,500 to 1,600 mcg MF each time, but decided to continue with 200 mcg MB shot + 1,600 mcg MF + 3 mg AdB12 just once a day at 7-8pm for now.

The only downside there is that I might not be getting enough MF for continuous methylation. I forgot to tell you that I still take a multivitamin containing folic acid at 1-2am, away from taking MF and MB, only because I could not find a multi with MF that I could tolerate. I was told by others on the forum that it's prob ok since I'm not MTHFR, and I seemed to be progressing and improving with FP (even though it sounds like I'm complaining about it, many things did get better on FP). Also when I got the B12 deficiency 10 years ago, it was caused by a doctor's very high folic acid protocol (with no corresponding B12), so I know I must absorb it. I might also be making folacin from the high amount of veggies I eat (unless I have a situation like ahmo where eating veggies blocks her mfolate...do you know what causes that?).

The only extra MF I've been taking since 10/12 (besides at shot time) is 100 mcg in my B-complex with lunch. I did that on both 10/12 and 10/13 and felt pretty good and "even" on both days, despite having to buy organic chicken and do errands on 10/12 and spending all day on 10/13 doing my big chicken cooking/vacuum sealing for the month. Usually those 2 days completely wipe me out, but surprisingly I still had energy yesterday 10/13. I took the B-complex earlier with a smaller meal yesterday, and had bad MF symptoms again. Maybe less food made it dissolve too fast. We'll see what happens today taken with lunch. This morning I woke up with brain fog (could have been hormones), and decided to try 100 mcg of MF and felt bad again. Brain fog didn't improve or got worse, and felt shortness of breath for awhile. I am concerned about not taking enough MF, but seem to feel better without it now. What do you think about previously mentioned idea of switching to 100 mcg shots 2x/day with corresponding dose of 1,500 to 1,600 mcg MF each time instead? I will stay where I am for a few more days and see how I do, esp since I have to go to town for doctor, etc. on Monday.

Some amazing things did happen! I developed a skin eruption on the front of my right thigh shortly before or after starting FP. It resembled psoriasis but more red and not as scaly, though slightly flaky (definitely not psoriasis, which I have had before). By June 2016, it had grown to the size of a quarter or bigger. Since then it shrank to nickel size, as I increased my FP doses. Then in just the last week since the shots, it shrank again by half or more to a sliver! Also urine has much stronger smell, I'm assuming from increased MB. I've also noticed another great improvement, again just this week since the shots, in a squatting muscle pain I always get in the shower, which never got better before. I didn't feel it at all in my last 2 showers, a sign of some kind of muscle or strength improvement.

I have so much more to ask, but for now a final, but important thing: You mentioned the shots need to be deep SubQ, which contradict something I read today on the BD syringe website. I don't know how to attach links in the forum, but I will paste them here and maybe you can copy and paste if they don't open. Keep in mind these links are about insulin pen syringes, but the part that is important is that it says the injections should be shallow (in the fat only), and not too deep or it will hit muscle and be absorbed too quickly. That's why the pen needles are so short (4mm), tho they are for insulin cartridges only. My 31G are 8mm (5/16" inch). How long are yours? I was concerned mine were too short, but now I wonder if sometimes I inject too deep and that's why sometimes I feel too much of a rush. I think I would rather have it absorb slowly and last longer. I will ask my doc what he thinks Monday, tho he might not know as much as whoever taught you. Who told you about the deep SubQ? Maybe it is different with MB and should be deeper.

This 1st link explains why shots should be shallow (with graphics):
http://bd.com/us/diabetes/page.aspx?cat=7002&id=7409

This 2nd link shows a graphic of proper pinch up technique to avoid hitting muscle:
http://bd.com/us/diabetes/page.aspx?cat=7002&id=62855
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@surfbaby
My little brother is still alive and where there is life, there is hope. He survived the initial aneurysm and came back with CPR and then he made it past more than one pulmonary embolus. He can focus his eyes when he looks now but he is still hard to understand. Flat on his back in a hospital bed for 3 weeks and he will have a long road ahead and the Drs are warning the family that he is not out of danger yet.

Yes, I suspect that I was just trying to illustrate the amounts of B12, in particular, that some people need. As the B12 I take is injected, the 2000 mcg is absorbed. I will be trying to decrease this again soon. I am taking 1/4 or less of the mfolate that I needed at one time and I hope that the same will be true for the mB12. I would like to get to one needle a day.

I don't know the context of saying that but sometimes it is just trying to encourage people to find their effective dose and to know that there are people doing just fine who need to push the methylation system hard and not to worry about the numbers.

You are right. The RDA is just a number and it doesn't account individual genetics for absorption, transport, uptake or usage.

Difficulty converting folicin to folate is related to the MTHFS SNP. I am heterozygous. You may be OK with the folic acid not being MTHFR, I'm not 100% sure on that but I can't think of a reason why it should cause you grief.

Your experiences with mfolate still suggests to me that there is an imbalance....or I should say, the negative reaction to mfolate or the potential for this disappeared when I pushed the mB12 higher. Folate has more than one job and this is where I wish I had a university course under my belt. It supplies methyl groups to the methylation pathway and is involved with DNA repair and formation of red blood cells. Obviously it has a role in cell division and closing the neural tube in the fetus but I don't know what else.

My point is that if someone takes enough mB12 to force methylation and is not MTHFR then the only reason to push folate intake above RDA would be if, as you say, there was a problem with absorption or transport.

On the one hand your quick response when taking it suggests that you don't have a problem with absorption or transport and on the other if everything was honky-dory with folate you shouldn't be so sensitive to shifts in blood levels. You are not easy are you?

If you feel better with lower doses of it then listen to your body. I took 1000 mcg of mfolate throughout the day yesterday and less than that the 2 days prior. Even though I am MTHFR most of my problems lie with B12.

By definition, deep sub-Q means into fat. Sub-Q is subcutaneous and means injection into the layer of fat beneath the skin. Into the muscle is intramuscular or IM. The few times that I have injected into the thigh I have had to pinch the skin to get enough fat. Even though I only weigh 150 lbs I never have to worry about hitting muscle on my tummy.

I rotate sites. My morning needle is 1.5 ml and it goes into the area around my navel and the strip below...along the belt line. The afternoon needle is with an insulin syringe and I use the upper part of the abd and the sides as the needle is shorter like you are using.

While I think that the sub-Q part may be important since fat has hardly any blood vessels and absorption is slowed, whether it is deep or not may be another thing. Basically, you have a layer of fat without many blood vessels and it is sandwiched between muscle and skin, both of which are loaded with blood vessels. Get the injection into the fat and deep enough to be away from the skin.

I think that the response you are getting is more likely related to the concentration as the pharmacist suggested to you. I use 1mg/ml. Absorption may not be as even with what you are using (?)

It sounds like you are making progress. Congratulations on the improvements with the skin - this is still a trouble spot for me. brad
 
Messages
98
My little brother is still alive and where there is life, there is hope. He survived the initial aneurysm and came back with CPR and then he made it past more than one pulmonary embolus. He can focus his eyes when he looks now but he is still hard to understand. Flat on his back in a hospital bed for 3 weeks and he will have a long road ahead and the Drs are warning the family that he is not out of danger yet.
@stridor
I was so relieved to hear that your little brother is still alive, and of course as you said, where there is life, there is hope. It sounds like his condition is very serious, and he has been through a lot. I hope and pray that he will recover from this.

I appreciated your encouraging post. Like you said, I'm not easy! Too many sensitivities and factors. That has always been the roadblock to figuring things out for me. I do think something is still out of balance with MF and MB, but I think it was a bit out of balance before the shots too, I just couldn't tell what was out of balance at the time because I had built up so gradually. I definitely feel like l'm getting the MB-12 I need now, that I wasn't getting before in the SL. The squatting muscle pain in my thighs when I am manuvering in the shower has still not come back, and overall my movements are easier and less painful. That is new since the shots. The skin thing on my thigh is stable for now, but at least it's less than half the size since the shots. This makes me feel hopeful that something good is happening!

The one thing that might be slightly worse is some dry skin on my lips and a "split" on my upper lip to the left of the Cupid's bow that I've had for several years. I don't know if it's angular cheilitis like @Freddd has, which for him usually means he needs more MF. I think it might be related to the arginine in my dark chocolate, and possibly because the weather us getting cooler, even in HI. The lip thing always gets worse in the winter. Some of my tongue and mouth burning has been flared too, but I'm hoping it's a h

I am going to keep moving forward and try not to be too fixated on the MF situation as being a problem.
 
Messages
98
Your experiences with mfolate still suggests to me that there is an imbalance....or I should say, the negative reaction to mfolate or the potential for this disappeared when I pushed the mB12 higher. Folate has more than one job and this is where I wish I had a university course under my belt. It supplies methyl groups to the methylation pathway and is involved with DNA repair and formation of red blood cells. Obviously it has a role in cell division and closing the neural tube in the fetus but I don't know what else.
@stridor
I can't believe I hit the post button by mistake again! To finish my previous thought, I'm hoping the lip/mouth issues getting slightly worse is some type of healing reaction. When I healed from B-12 deficiency before, some things flared up during the healing process before they got better, while the nerves were reconnecting.

I am going to keep moving forward and try not to be too fixated on the MF situation
as being a problem. Even Ben Lynch, who is MTHFR, says he doesn't take MF every day, only when he feels like he needs it. (I wish I knew what symptoms that would be for me! Meanwhile I will continue to take as much as I can tolerate.)

Do you have any suggestions on when I should try to start increasing my 200 mcg MB shot dose, and if so, by how much? (Or do you prefer the idea of 2 smaller 100 mcg shots + corresponding MF instead? I think staying at once a day would be less stressful since it seems to be working, and I feel pretty "even" like the shot is lasting 24 hrs. Not getting that uncomfortable rushing feeling at injection time lately either). I think I am ok at staying with the 10mg/ml for now too. When I was on the Neubrander protocol before, an even stronger concentration of 25mg/ml was required because supposedly it absorbed more slowly. I forgot about that. Who knows which theories are right!

I would continue to slightly increase my MF dose at shot time when I increase my MB shot, because I tend to tolerate that p.m. MF dose ok unlike the daytime doses now, for some strange reason. Something is just different in my body at p.m. when I'm winding down (I'm guessing a hormone or adrenal shift.) As mentioned before, I can only take the AdB12 at night also.

Btw, I am only around 97 lbs, so I don't have much fat, even on my tummy. I have been rotating sites on my tummy like you. Nowhere else has enough fat that's easy to get to. Last night I tried pinching up the skin the way it showed in the 2nd link I sent you, and it felt better than the way I was doing it before. Just a slight modification. I do feel like I'm adapting to the shots, so want to keep moving forward!

Do you feel any differently when you do your long needle or short needle? What are the lengths of the 2 needles? That morning one doesn't hurt?

Btw, you asked about B6 in previous post. I did try to add more B6 as P5P for pyroluria protocol and it kept me up at night, and other symptoms I can't recall at the moment (possibly jitteriness or brain issues). I can tolerate the 2.5 mg of P5P + 2.5 mg of regular B6 in my B-complex, as well as 25 mg of regular B6 (not P5P) in my multi. I even tried dividing the 50 mg P5P capsule into 8 x 6 mg capsules and still had problems. Do you think maybe now I should try again with 6 mg (can't really make it any less, it's such a scant amount of powder now), since I've increased my MB12 with the shots?

As always, looking forward to hearing from you! Thanks for your encouragement! Might take me awhile to post you back, depending on how quickly I recover from doc and other appts in town tomorrow. Maybe thanks to the shots I will have a speedy recovery!
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@surfbaby
I had angular cheilitis when I didn't have enough riboflavin. It was confusing because I was actually taking it. You likely read my post on B2 and so I won't repeat it here. Just make sure that you are taking enough to change your urine to "vitamin B chartreuse".

The more I think about it, I suspect that you are right and the higher concentration is absorbed slower. Only the person that is living in your skin can advise you as to when to try upping the B12. I am only an expert on me :)

My afternoon needle is 5/16" and the morning is 1/2". The morning one can sting a bit because it has other B vitamins in it. Yes, I do call it my "B-sting". I reserve the prime injection sites for it. But it is no big deal. I don't get freezing when I go to the dentist either. I feel pain just like the next person but don't worry about it much.

I don't notice anything from the needles. Either one. The 4 times that I have tried to wean off the one shot brings back fog and fatigue and my mood dips. My wife noticed it before me the last time. It is time to try again.

I gave up on P5P a long time ago. I think that it was a money thing. I needed a bit of B6 every day but not too much. For a while it was 12.5 mg when I was really sick. I don't have this sensitivity now and currently inject 2 mg and for 2 years I was on B6 25 mg daily.

3 weeks ago, I stopped the 25 mg I started Thorne B and it has 10 mg of P5P. It doesn't seem to make any difference. I am trying to work towards adding a multi-vite into my routine so I can drop the number of pills I take.

So yeah, just about everything produced the same symptoms in me. I had fog and fatigue from activity related to CFS, redistribution when I was chelating mercury - occurs at the end of the round, I used to react to thiols in food this way as well but am OK now. decreasing B12, too much or too little mfolate....very confusing. Too much B6 did the same thing and so did too little.

There was a lot of trial and error on my road to recovery. But things are much more stable now. I have reasonable activity tolerance....I won't be running any marathons but I can be active as much as I want to be. Changes in daily intake of mfolate or B6 is not really noticed much. My main problem now is my gut with its food sensitivities as expressed with skin eruptions of various types.

Without a colon, I don't see that there is much that I can do about this other than continue with the coconut kefir.
 
Messages
98
I had angular cheilitis when I didn't have enough riboflavin. It was confusing because I was actually taking it. You likely read my post on B2 and so I won't repeat it here. Just make sure that you are taking enough to change your urine to "vitamin B chartreuse".
Quick question on your angular cheilitis before I run off to the doctor. My understanding is that it occurs primarily in the corners if the mouth, but I thought I read somewhere that it can occur in other parts of the mouth/lips. Do you know? Was yours only in the corners? Did you have lip flaking skin too?

While I did have it in the corners of my mouth occasionally about 5-6 years ago (when I was doing antiviral meds for a virus in my eye and a lot of other meds for my eyes that I didn't feel good about, so I could have surgery), for the past 2 years I've just had this split on my upper lip about 1/8" to the left of the Cupid's bow, and some lip flaking. It never goes away completely, but seems like it might get worse when I eat too much dark chocolate (I read that lip issues can get aggravated by dark chocolate, especially if the high arginine throws off your lysine, so I've been taking lysine 500 mg/day, but maybe that's not good?). However I just looked at my lip split, and I swear it has shrunk to half the usual size!

I haven't read your post on B2 yet. That has been on my to do list. Maybe you can post a link or I will do a search. I will definitely read up on it, but meanwhile maybe the B12 shots will work another miracle on my lip!

Did you say you don't have a colon? If so, I am very sorry to hear that. It sounds like something pretty serious. You have been through a lot, and I really admire your strength!
 
Messages
98
I had angular cheilitis when I didn't have enough riboflavin. It was confusing because I was actually taking it. You likely read my post on B2 and so I won't repeat it here. Just make sure that you are taking enough to change your urine to "vitamin B chartreuse".
@stridor
Just sent you a quick post above, but forgot to tag you. Not sure if I have to tag you for you to get an alert.
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@surfbaby
Yes, you have to tag me for me to be notified and that is still no guarantee. Lots of times I only find out that someone has tried to reach me after the fact.

My angular cheilitis was at the corners of my mouth and I had a rash on my left jawline, tip of my nose and "down there". I also had huge, angry capillaries circling my pupils. That was the second time. The first, was a swollen and split tongue.

I don't know, but suspect, that low B2 could have a variety of presentations involving the mouth and lips given my experience.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/a-b2-story.25142/ This is the B2 experience.

I started to get into the lysine and arginine because of the peroxynitrite thing but stopped for some reason. Likely, just because of the number of pills...back then I was on 93 pills a day and 22 med times. I just started to drop things because of the insanity of it all. That was 2011,

I had my colon taken out because there was over 100 polyps. It is a rare disorder called Hyperplastic Polyposis. It was my 15 min of fame and they sent my DNA internationally to be studied. Little is known beyond there being a gene switch being thrown from an early disruption in methylation.... and low glutathione. Mercury causes both and my mother was exposed to mercury on the farm when I was still in utero.

But I have no proof for that little theory. They took out the colon and connected the small intestine to the rectum. The operation was no fun as my intestinal tract shut down. I went 11 days without food and was pretty weak by the end.

But things are good now and it beats wearing a bag. I have had 22 polyps removed from the rectum in the last 3 years but they have been small and I "only" need yearly colonoscopies now.

It took over a year until I stopped noticing further improvements from B12 and pushing methylation. I hope that you continue to improve too.