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AdB12 weird response?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by stridor, Sep 23, 2013.

  1. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    I hope that I can get my point across. I came here looking for answers to my remaining symptoms, the main one being brain-fog. At 20% of what it used to be - most of the time but sometimes worse.
    I am C677T ++ and that mfolate 800 - 1000 mcg daily
    I had a big improvement with mB12 injections 1 mg daily with some B vitamins (I call it my morning "B" sting).


    Following what I am learning here I started Ad B12 and it didn't do much. So I added carnitine and crashed on the second day. I will split the carnitine caps and try again next weekend. In the meantime, I continued with the adB12.

    So, today I am in a 3 1/2 hour yawn-fest meeting - you know the type - where you mind wanders all over the place. It dawned on me that adB12 was helping with that - as in able to concentrate. BUT - only while I had a chip in my mouth. 10 min after it was gone and I was losing track again. This improved focus occurred in the presence of brain-fog. That is the strange part. If you had asked me I would have told you the fog was different (had a weird pressure in my head) but that I was fogged. This is why I didn't pick up on it outside of the meeting setting.

    So now what? I have taken about 15 mg of adB12 today. Do I always keep a chip in my mouth? I thought with adB12 that I would just knock back a few until there were no more (+) returns and then only once every few days (?)
    How much of this stuff can I take? Or should I take if I am on 1 mg inj mB12 daily?

    Finally, (and thank-you for getting this far) can I become cobalt toxic from too much B12 or is the sky the limit?
    Thanks in advance for any help or stories about your AdB12 experience.
     
  2. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    OK. Today I went to work in the best shape in years in terms of brain-fog. Not hearing that there was any problems from respondents here, I kept pounding back the AdB12. Had a chip in my mouth most of the morning. At lunch I had dizziness. I had my first run-in with vertigo a month ago. It runs in my family with 4 siblings with some form of Meniere's or similar. This was not vertigo but it was more than a bit of dizziness. It was worse with head movement and I had some destabilization when I stood.
    I backed off the adB12 but think that dehydration was part of the problem...I drink less when I have a chip of B12 in my mouth all the time it seems.
    Feel better now but not back to baseline. Still dizzy when I move my head.
     
  3. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    Better today. Dizziness back to baseline. Didn't push as hard today with adB12. Sometimes it feels like I have stumbled onto the answer for me and brain-fog drops to 10% and at others it is back to 20%+ and I think that I am still missing a piece of the puzzle. Will introduce carnitine then eventually ubiquinol in small doses.
     
  4. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    So the above appears to be "start-up" symptoms only.
    Weird as I am on mB12 injections daily. I suppose that the enzyme that is supposed to convert MB12 to AdB12 is wonky. Haven't found the name of that enzyme yet. Anyway I am still responding to the AdB12 so I guess that means that I have yet to reach saturation.
     
  5. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    Today I have my "glutamate symptoms" increasing. These are anxiety, agitation and irritability. Nothing that I can't deal with but interesting as far as tracking progress goes.
     
  6. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    In case, as some have suggested that adb12 works best with carnitine, I'll introduce a bit. I am breaking my rules about how many things I am changing at once. Very hard to stick to this when certain supplements work in concert.

    Also, turning my focus back to choline. I have PEMT +- x 4 This one is for folate and choline transport and conversion of choline to pcholine. TYMS ++ that also is related to folate and choline somehow. MTHFD1 G1958A ++ that increases choline need. Because of these things I am supposed be a "bottomless pit" in terms of pcholine intake.

    In my recent purging of my pill line-up I decreased sunflower lecithin to 1 cap daily down from 4. Back up to 3 today.
     
  7. bigmillz

    bigmillz Senior Member

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    Did you ever find a resolution to this? I'm finding I'm getting a bit of dizziness/vertigo type feeling with ~750mcg of adB12. Just started, and only on the 3rd day.
     
  8. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    Hi @bigmillz
    Wow! all the way back to Sept 2013. The first dose of adb12 was quite a lift. I remember thinking that I had finally found the last piece of the puzzle. It doesn't work that way though. After the shortage is filled you won't even notice taking it anymore.

    I took 8.6 mg a day for months along with about 30 mg mB12 sublingual and then I had my 2 mg mB12 by needle as well. This was as close as I could get to what Freddd was doing. He had a highly concentrated mB12 for injection that I couldn't get.

    After about a year of always having B12 in my mouth during my waking hours my tooth enamel started to deteriorate. It is not particularly strong to start with. There is citric acid in the sublingual tabs.

    Currently, I have to remind myself to take the adb12 as I am pretty much recovered and it doesn't seem to do anything that I can detect. But it has antioxidant activity so why not? I took 8.6 mg a day for about a year and then cut back to 8.6 mg a week. I am not taking about 2 mg weekly.

    Any effect from B12 be it mB12 or adb12 means that you need it. These two can convert back and forth and that you are reacting suggests that you are not doing this particularly well right now. It will take you longer to "fill your tank" at 750 mcg a day but you will.

    Cheers, brad
     
  9. bigmillz

    bigmillz Senior Member

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    Thanks Brad, really appreciate the reply on such an old thread!

    I've noticed that everytime I introduce something new, there's that same effect, where I think I've solved it all, but then my body adapts. Oh well, it's good to make progress.

    Sounds like the dizziness subsided for you then, and you were able to go up in dosage. What brand of adB12 are you using these days?

    How did you work around the tooth enamel issue? I've been reading about this, and it does concern me. Sublingual instead?

    Thanks again!
     
    matt3n likes this.
  10. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    @bigmillz

    Yes, I have had many epiphanies along the way. I have a thread where I talk about some called, "motochondria, mercury, methylation, mycoplasma. After I started the thread I could have addded, "mast cell activation". I clearly have a preference for ailments starting with the letter "m".

    I didn't get dizziness. I had an overall improvement in function with less brain-fog. I couldn't wait until the next dose but the result was less. Within a few doses the change was imperceptible. I had read about the antioxidant effects related to the NO/ONOO cycle. Because of this I kept the dose high for the next year.

    My dose never changed. I had 8.6 mg sublingual tabs by Source Naturals that I would nip a piece from and spread through the day.

    Any change - good or bad - tells you that you are on the right track. The dizziness will subside I suspect and if it doesn't track down one of the senior members for input. Mitochondrial stores will be replenished at some point.

    For the tooth enamel I stopped sublingual mB12 and just kept the injectable which I am on today - 2 needles daily. The adb12 is still taken sublingual but I do not put in a dose at bedtime anymore. And I take less. I caught it early.

    cheers.
     
    matt3n likes this.
  11. bigmillz

    bigmillz Senior Member

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    Appreciate your help again!

    Were you splitting up a new 8.6mg tab every day, or 1 tab split up for the week?

    There's definitely been change. Trying to stick through it this time around instead of getting impatient. The dizziness has actually improved which is awesome.

    I don't think I'm ready yet for any injectables, but how did you go about getting yours? Asked your Dr? I'm very, very wary of getting something like that online.
     
  12. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    @bigmillz
    For the first year, I split 8.6 into many little nibbles and had a piece on the go much of the day, high up in the buccal pouch. Then it was a tab per week and now I have to remind myself to take a bit each week...maybe 2 mg. I forget and it doesn't seem to do much. I'd stop but I still have quite a cache.

    I was super-sick and when my Dr heard that mB12 had "turned on the lights", he said, "I am going to make you feel even better. We'll set you up with injectable."
    I started with 3 per week and when I told him that sublingual was still adding a difference, he increased to daily. The more I took the better I felt and so I increased on my own to 2 injections a day.

    mB12 has to be protected from light and kept cool. I doubt getting it on line is going to work out.
     
  13. bigmillz

    bigmillz Senior Member

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    I'd definitely consider asking my Dr...I may have to call him soon about Deplin anyways. The cost and hassle of taking multiple 1mg capsules through the day (somewhere around 8mg is working well for me) is getting a little annoying.

    Is the injectable form also methylcobalamin or something else?
     
    stridor likes this.
  14. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    The injectable is methylcobalamin. I mixed one mg with some B vitamins in the morning and just plain B12 before supper. I have never found anything to interfere with sleep so if I am out I just take the needle when I get home.

    (That is true for hydrocortisone and thyroid pills as well. I take a dose of each with my bedtime pills. They are not energizing.)

    I take the mthylfolate under the tongue. I never have been able to find the dose that works for me swallowing capsules, I quit somewhere around 9.
    Two years ago I was taking 2 or maybe 2 1/2....something like that, capsules a day. I just opened the capsule and poured it into the buccal pouch. I need less than a capsule a day now and right or wrong, I attribute all of this to my gut health.
    When I hear that people are taking ultra-high doses of folate it makes me suspect an absorption problem. If this is the case for you there is money to be saved.
    My ferritin is still 11 in spite of a year of supplementing. Vit D is always low in spite of supplementing and if you read my thread you know that I have to take more B2 than some people. I do not absorb things real well but I am better since I started the coconut kefir. It seems to be soothing and maybe even healing to my gut.
     
  15. surfbaby

    surfbaby

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    @ahmo had previously recommended that I contact you about something, MB12 injections I think, but also possibly about how to back down off Freddd's Protocol slowly if it seemed too much or if one wanted to take a break or reassess doses. As my doses on FP get higher, sometimes I contemplate doing that, but for now I am moving forward, and thinking about switching to injections. The expense for Enzy sublinguals is almost close to the cost of getting injections, and even tho Enzy doesn't have citric acid, it does have fructose, and I'm concerned about the effect on tooth enamel/gums.

    At first I was thinking about doing Hydroxy, because of Yasko's recommendations for my SNP's, but I have decided to go with MB12. I had taken both forms by injection several years ago after developing a severe B12 deficiency from a high-dose folic acid protocol that was part of LDA injections for allergies (thankfully we caught it before it got to my spine). That was before we knew about methylfolate. Freddd was helping me on a different forum at that time. Back then I thought the hydroxy injections agreed with me better than the methyl injections (although I could tolerate the methyl sublinguals much better than the hydroxy), but I wasn't taking MF, and I think that's why I had problems. Eventually the obvious B12 deficiency symptoms got much better, so several years ago I stupidly stopped taking the MB12 (both sublinguals and injections). My excuse was that the sublingual brand I was taking started using xylitol which does not agree with me, and the MB injections never made me feel better, usually had fatigue/brain fog. I'm sure that was due to getting the doses wrong and from not taking MF or the rest of FP, which didn't exist yet in it's current form.

    More on the injections in a future post, because I'm actually writing you today about Adb12. I have so many things to ask you that I hope you don't mind if I write you again with other topics that I know you could really help me with. This post is turning out to be much longer than I thought, so if you want to get to my main question about Adb12, it's at the end.

    Somewhat briefly (if that's possible), my story… I have had ME/CFS, fibromyalgia, multiple chemical sensitivities, gut issues/candida since 1987, a year after getting breast implants. After 2000, I also developed uveitis (a serious autoimmune eye disease that has already caused blindness in one eye and makes being on the computer very difficult/painful and it can cause uveitis flareups) and years later EHS (electromagnetic hypersensitivity). The best results I ever had were in the early 90's from EPD injections (now known as LDA, which has posts on this forum). I was even able to start working again. EPD came from England and the FDA banned it about 20 years ago, so LDA was formulated in the US, but was too strong for me and after several overdoses I got even worse, especially the chemical sensitivities, and EHS started thereafter.

    Somewhere in the early to mid-2000's, I also started having occasional migraines and mild seizure-like episodes (not epileptic or grand mal) triggered by flashing lights/sounds, steroids, and extreme stress. A neurologist I saw called it "sensitive brain". I think it had to do with B12 deficiency and/or hormone fluctuations from peri-menopause. Migraines occurred primarily when my estrogen would get low. Everything definitely got worse after peri-menopause. Around that time, my regular doctor thought I may have also had a mild stroke or TIA, because at some point I developed severe aphasia for a while, where I could barely speak in sentences, tho I was able to write much better than I could speak. I think it was related to B12 deficiency, or a combination of everything I was going through at that time. That got a lot better, but I still don't feel like I can communicate as well as I could before then.

    Last thing of note, I discovered in 2012 that I had elevated arsenic from eating brown rice. I tried cutting back on the brown rice but it didn't help significantly. I did not know about Cutler, so in 2015 I let my doc give me 8 treatments of EDTA IV chelation over a period of 5 months. He started very low dose, and I seemed to be tolerating it, but as he started increasing the dose, it really started to affect my brain. Finally had to stop it because I just couldn't think clearly anymore at all. It was not like any other brain fog I had ever had. (BTW after a 2014 eye surgery, I started having vertigo-like dizziness similar to what you described having, usually for me from being online, but it's better now! Also mild seborrhea got much worse after that surgery and has not gotten much better yet.) After stopping chelation, I found out about Rich's methylation research online, so I decided to try acetyl glutathione which I saw in one of his articles. I stopped after 3 weeks of being really sick on that, which led me to FP!

    I have been faithfully and continuously on FP since 10/2015, and have been slowly but surely getting better! Some things had already greatly improved or had mostly resolved before FP: migraines, seizure-like episodes, fibromyalgia, candida,
    are all better, mostly I suspect to my hormones evening out.

    Since being on FP my asthma is better than it's ever been in my life; brain fog improved and getting better; burning mouth/tongue and EHS showing some improvement; slight improvement with skin stuff.

    Gut issues were improving off and on, but are flared right now, but could be due to my refrigerator not keeping cold enough since the summer heat. Chemical sensitivities had improved until a big flareup this week, probably caused from buying a new chest freezer as an intermediary step to getting a new refrigerator. Chemicals/smells from my last new refrigerator 7 years ago made me very ill for quite a while.

    I am currently taking total per day: Solgar MF 3,800mcg, Enzy MB12 9,000mcg, AdB12 2,000mcg (1/4 of Source Naturals tablet, the only brand I can tolerate), Dr's Best LCF 1,000mg. I take the MF and MB 3x/day and LCF 2x/day empty stomach in divided doses. I take the AdB12 1x/day with my pm MB.

    I've also been taking the other primary recommended supplements (except only recently trying to add in zinc), including at least 900mgs potassium daily. I haven't been able to increase FP as fast as many others, but was inc at least 3x/month and might to step that up after current chemical senditivity flareup, as I seem to be tolerating increases better.

    Finally on to my main question about AdB12, (AD for short): It took me 8 months to titrate up from a crumb per day to 1/4 Source Naturals tablet, so for now I think I need to stay with taking it daily, since I can't take a large enough dose to take it once a week. I also think I get a better result from taking it every day, like you did in the beginning. When I first started taking it, I would get a tightness in my chest, that wasn't asthma but I felt like I couldn't breathe as well, and my heart would race. It was like what I would imagine taking too much speed would be like. (I had a similar reaction to LCF, which also took me 8 months to titrate up to 1 entire capsule 2x/day. Now I don't think I can live without LCF, because my energy drops without it, which worries me.)

    Last Sunday I tried to increase AD to 3/4 of a tablet. I also decreased my pm MB that I take with it by 1/4 tablet, due to posts by Freddd about how you shouldn't take AD and MB together. He says they can offset each other where one or both might not work as well, due to biochemical reactions that you probably understand better than I do. I was formulating a plan to slowly decrease my pm MB as I increased the AD. Also @ahmo told me that she takes her AD dose away from her MB dose like Freddd does, but they both do it once a week, whereas I need to stay at once a day for now.

    After reading your posts above, and finding out that you took AD and MB together with good results the entire time you were doing AD daily, I am rethinking my plan. The AD increase I did from Sunday to Thursday seemed to be having a positive effect on my energy, and possibly my brain too. However on Friday I decreased back to my regular dose because of the big chemical sensitivity flareup. It's probably due to eating food from the new chest freezer, but because I had also changed my supplements on Sunday, @caledonia recommended putting everything back to where it was for now.

    I just wanted to get your feedback on taking AD and MB together daily, because that seems to be what is working for me right now. I would probably just continue to take the AD with my pm MB dose, steadily increasing both, if you don't think that would cause a significant reduction in how either one of them is working (after my current allergy flareup subsides). Do you think I should also experiment with taking smaller quantities of AD throughout the day like you did instead of just once a day? That seems to give more opportunities to interfere with MB though. @ahmo and @caledonia would appreciate your thoughts on this too!

    Eventually I would very much appreciate getting more details on translating MB sublinguals to injections from you. I already have a prescription from my doc for MB 10mg per ml, on file with a compounding pharmacy that will ship it on ice. Later I would also really be grateful to find out details on how you were able to increase everything to the point where you were taking AD once a week, and then how you decreased your doses to where they are now after you got much better. It's a lot to ask all at once, so I don't mind spreading it out, especially since my eyes need a big rest and hopefully I will not get a bad report from the eye doc tomorrow! Thank you so much for any help you can give!
     
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  16. caledonia

    caledonia

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    @surfbaby

    I take small doses of MB and AD together four times a day. Seems to be working ok for me.
     
  17. surfbaby

    surfbaby

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    That is great to hear! How much do you take of each?
     
  18. caledonia

    caledonia

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    20 mcg MB and 4 mcg AD total for the day.
     
  19. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    For the first year I took them together. Fred took them together for years. Truth is what works. If it works for you , keep on what you're doing. You might try it differently sometime in the future.
     
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  20. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    @surfbaby
    Just got back from camp! The sound of loons is the only thing that I welcome in the middle of the night, I will wake up for that any day. Saw a couple of otters too and that is not a common sighting for me. So nice.

    That is my way of saying that I just got your message today. In fact, this hour....
    Sorry to hear about your long-standing battle with ME/CFS. It really moves me to hear stories like yours.

    I was pretty sick when I started methylation. I wasn't thinking clearly and certainly wasn't able to absorb everything that I tried to read. I tackled Freddd's Protocol with an initial focus on mB12 and mfolate. AdenoB12 was next but it took me a long time to trust LCF as ALC was always a disaster for me.

    I don't know if you read my thread, "mitochondria, mercury. methylation, mycoplasma"? Have a look otherwise as there might be something in there you can use.

    Arsenic poisoning is not nice. You might want to consider following up on this with further testing.
    http://www.livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/chelation-the-andy-cutler-protocol/ This is a site with more information and the hair test is somewhere on here. I had a challenge test and momentarily had a diminished ability to speak. With your history, you wouldn't want to try that.

    The points are a) If your body has a problem clearing one heavy metal, better check that there isn't more. None of these tests check for metal in the brain and the half-life of mercury there is 10-20 years and I suspect more for people with methylation problems.
    b) The second point is that you have to find the cause(s) for your CFS and eliminate those you can and control the remaining ones the best you can. People who are as sick as you have been will likely have more than one thing cooking. Hence, the title of that thread. If you read it, you'll see that Mast Cell Activation could also be added. I clearly favour health issues that start with the letter, "M".

    Congrats on getting 10 mg per ml!!! You are in Freddd's league. You likely know that he takes, or was taking, 30 mg mB12 by injection daily. I used this to have the confidence to find the dosage that I needed. No matter how silly it all seems (I still have a hard time believing I need 2 injections a day and will try to cut back from time-to-time. It is my wife who notices the changes first.

    I took both B12's together and sometimes even had both in my mouth at the same time. I think that Freddd came out with the idea to keep them separate later on. I doubt that it is a big problem and even if it was it would just mean that you would be taking a bit more to compensate. Just get it in and let the body figure things out from there :)

    Oral absorption of B12 is so random that you can not make a calculation with any accuracy. I started with 1mg every 3 days. Then one a day. The more I took the better I felt and I ended up with 2 daily. All the extra B12 that I added on orally was to flood the system. Those of us who have suffered from chronic B12 shortage will have damage to neurons etc. We flood the body with high levels of B12 to lessen the odds on some of that becoming permanent.

    As far as adenoB12 goes, theoretically mB12 should be able to convert. Freddd thinks that people with CFS tend to not do this particularly well. My first dose verified that for me. I was taking large amounts of mB12 and if it could convert readily then I shouldn't have noticed a thing.

    I have increased my adenoB12 in the last 2 weeks. It was initiated by accidentally ordering too much of it but I think that it is helpful to clarity of thought and so I have been taking the 8.6 mg a week again and will continue to do so for the next few months at least.

    I don't know if I answered your questions or not but feel free to ask me anything. I am doing well because others took the time to help me.
     

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