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Ad-B12 Startup Effects

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by arx, Aug 18, 2012.

  1. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    Nandixon, thanks so much for shedding a light on this. Very helpful!
  2. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    Wanted to update this thread. After more experimenting and finally getting around to reading the full text of a Korean article on vitamin B12 that Rich has mentioned several times (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21429294/), I don't think the idea that adenosylcobalamin (dibencozide, AdoCbl) is causing problems for some people by inhibiting other adenosyl-recognizing enzymes is the most likely explanation. Instead, excess AdoCbl may be interfering with utilization of other cellular forms of B12, e.g., methylcobalamin (MeCbl), and/or causing their loss, and/or increasing the amount of oxidized glutathione and therefore oxidative stress.

    So for my personal biochemistry/genetics (having a major defect in the MTRR enzyme and a lesser heterozygous issue in MTHFR) it seems that if I'm going to use the coenzyme forms, i.e., AdoCbl and MeCbl, that I should perhaps take them both at the same time and in roughly equal amounts (probably a bias for more MeB12 - have to experiment), though I'm not sure whether either of those forms, or even hydroxycobalamin (hydroxocobalamin, OHCbl), is best, given the following:

    The Korean paper seems to be nice research and ties into the work that the Brasch group at Kent State has been doing in collaboration with a number of other researchers (http://www.brasch-group.com/research/vitamin-b12/), and that Adreno posted about on another thread, which didn't get nearly enough attention, I don't think:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ng-a-functional-vitamin-b12-deficiency.15668/

    The Brasch & collaborators work gives the possibility that, for a subset of people with CFS/ ME, using a preformed thiolactocobalamin such as glutathionylcobalamin or N-acetyl cysteinylcobalamin might conceivably be the best form of B12 to use. It may give entirely different results than a common B12 (Ado-, Me- or HO-) with separately supplemented glutathione, for example, excess amounts of which can be bad for some people - apparently by depleting B12, as inferred from the Korean paper. It just shows the incredible balancing act we're faced with in trying to overcome this disease.
    adreno likes this.
  3. Christmas

    Christmas

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    Hi I have one injection of hydro once a week. I don't need folic as it has always been ok. But open reading a forum someone recommended Country Life Dibencozide 3000mcgs with folic. I have PA so I thought this would b good for me. I took it three days ago. My eyes went crazy within two hours I felt sick hyper tired dizzy and extremely I'll. I do feel slightly better for a while then I'll again. Any ideas. Have I temporarily blocked the methylation pathway. If so any time lines I can go by to get normal again. I have ruined Christmas for my kids now they r worried sick both I'll kids. So any advice would b grateful as I feel very scared and ill
  4. Phred

    Phred Senior Member

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    Christmas it sounds like you had start up effects. It also sounds like you need to titrate up to that amount of adb12. Really you shouldn't take folic acid. It can block receptors. Some prefer folinic acid, others prefer methylfolate. B12 needs folate to work properly so you really should take both together. I believe the prefered adb12's are now Anabol Dibecoplex adb12 and Source Naturals Dibencozide. Please be aware that these are mega doses and you should probably start with crumbs. Literal crumbs so you don't wind up in the situation you're in now.

    It'll take a little time for the b12 to get out of your system. In the mean time get some potassium into you. You are very likely experiencing hypokalemia, which is low potassium. You've had ATP startup and it takes a lot of energy for your body to do that, so you've used up your potassium stores. If you don't have any potassium in vitamin form eat some potassium rich foods. Bananas, avocados, melons, pistachios, clams, halibut, potatoes - baked and WITH the skin, etc are all rich in potassium. I think you'll feel a lot better if you get some of that into you.

    Good luck and I hope you have a very merry christmas.
    Anteah likes this.
  5. Christmas

    Christmas

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    Thank you phred I dont take folic normally it was in the tablet. I feel a bit better than I go off n get hot n shivers n feel rubbish again. I know everyone different but we talking days or weeks for this to wear off
  6. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    Christmas, everyone is different, so I am not sure how much it will help, but when I first tried to add Ddb12 I had same issues and had to stop few times until finally being able to push through while titraiting very slowly. When I stopped it took me about a week to get back to my original baseline.
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Unless someone can't convert hydroxocobalamin to the active forms of B12, that might be something to try as nandixon suggested if someone is having an adverse reaction to adenosylcobalamin. Some suggestions about starting a low dose of adb12. If someone takes 1/4 of the country life tablet they're only getting 50 mcg of folic acid. I doubt this amount of folic acid is going to cause problems for the vast majority of people here. Someone could also try taking adb12 orally. For people who need a lot of adb12 they need to take it sublingually, but for those that are sensitive this is something to consider. I know someone who does this with the Anabol adb12. If someone wants to start very low, Source naturals has a sublingual B complex with ad b12. It also has folic acid, but 1/2 a tablet has 250 mcg ad b12 and 100 mcg folic acid. I doubt this will cause problems for most people here.
  8. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Quoting from http://www.forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/l-methylfolate-dosage.17910/

    "
    Also, what percentage of folic acid is converted to l-methylfolate?
    I understand that it differs from person to person,but just a rough estimate will be enough.

    It's not a percentage, it's an amount with biological limits. Consider the transformation only somewhere between 0 and 800mcg daily get converted to methylfoalte. However, 800mcg of folic acid can BLOCK 8000mcg of methylfolate "
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    This really depends on the individual. For me, folic acid hasn't sufficiently blocked methylfolate, but I realize certain people here do need to avoid folic acid. However, how many people here besides Fredd have actually tested this for themselves?

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