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Ad-B12 Startup Effects

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by arx, Aug 18, 2012.

  1. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Hi,
    I recently posted a thread to seek information about methyl b12 startup effects. Now it's adb12's turn. :D

    Please share your startup effects and other experiences when adb12 was added to your protocol. It would be of great help to me.

    P.S.: I've started off with Country Life 3000 mcg adb12 and am starting off by taking a quarter tablet in a day. I take 3000 mcg of mb12 daily. I'm feeling over stimulated and uncomfortable after starting adb12. Is this a positive sign? Any suggestions/views on dosage etc. will also be very helpful.

    Thanks!
     
  2. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Startup effects experienced by me so far, after adding adb12 to the protocol 4 days back:

    • Anxiety and Irritation
    • Feelings of over stimulation
    • Mood changes
    • Headaches
    • Weird nerve sensations inside my head
    • Classical 'wired but tired' feeling

    Looking forward to other's experiences!
     
  3. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    I've experienced same with adb12 and then some! Even at a smallest dose (in drops) I feel toxic and almost as though its moving heavy metals in mo body/brain. Depression that it causes for me is the deepest darkest hole one can imagine. I am honestly scared of adb12. I have to be very very careful with it or I seriously risk a rapid onset of clinical depression. It has not been a easy one to add.
     
  4. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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  5. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    For me reaction been the same with country life brand which contains folic acid, and with holistic heal drops which dont. I tend to think now that it is adb12 that is causing that and that it somehow literally begins to open the cells up and move the toxins (metals perhaps) around in attempt to excrete it. For me personally i feel that going slow and taking a tiny dose consistently for a long time until i detox all of that stuff will have to be the answer.
     
  6. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Anteah

    Yes, it has not been an easy one to add.It is very strong and provokes a lot of reactions in the body and mind. What is your dosage of adb12?


    aquariusgirl

    Yes,you are right.But where I live, I could just find access to this adb12 and I ordered it. I had no idea then that it contains folic acid. A tablet of 3000 mcg contains 200 mcg of folic acid.
    As Anteah mentioned that it might be the adb12 only that is causing startup. I also take metafolin 800 mcg everyday.
    If the 200 mcg is enough to block the metafolin,can I consider to stop taking metafolin and switch to folic acid completely(assuming that I convert to its active form properly). Could you please elaborate on the gazillion reasons so that I can understand this properly. Thanks!
     
  7. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    Arx, well it's in drops so god only knows how much gets absorbed but I use one drop (holistic heal) which is said to be equivalent to 1000mcg a day, but again I cant imagine it being the same as sublingual 1000mcg. Any more and I start having too bad of reaction.
     
  8. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Ok. Thanks. You're planning to take it daily for how long? I read somewhere that after a few days of taking adb12 daily , one should go for twice/thrice a week dosage. I need some help on the dosage. Also, have you tried l-carnitine?
     
  9. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    I think Freddd said once a week was enough for the adb12 once your levels were up. Are you taking magnesium, zinc and potassium? For me, magnesium has been critical when taking these supplements, especially helpful for muscle tension and depression. I take magnesium citrate to tolerance, and transdermal magnesium morning and night. The transdermal mag has been critical in all this.
     
  10. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Yes, I am taking Magnesium,Zinc and Potassium. I supplement potassium around 3000 mg/day(includes bananas and supplements), Zinc around 40 mg and Magnesium must be around 400 mg. Potassium has been extremely useful, and I've felt the need for more potassium after starting off with adb12. Symptoms like muscle cramps and mood changes happen to me with low potassium. It is good that magnesium is helping you. How much of potassium,zinc and magnesium do you supplement in a day?

    Also, what does zinc help with? I know it is a part of the 'process' as such but I have no particular idea about it's benefit.

    Thanks!
     
  11. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    Arx, I am still playing with the dosage. Will try 1 drop daily for now, if it will get too much will most likely ease off. Haven't tried l-carnitine yet only because I am on so many other supplements that adding one more just seems a bit crazy now, and pretty expensive too. Will try though if I get no headway with adding adb12 in the next few weeks.

    Adster, what is the dose of Magnesium that you are taking daily? I take 750mg at night, but not sure if it's enough.
     
  12. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Yeah,same here. Will take daily for now, then stop it for a while when I feel I'm almost through with the startups and make the dosage bi-weekly or something. Good luck to both you and me.

    Another question:

    Has anyone felt the need for more metafolin and/or potassium after adding adb12 to the protocol?

    Even though I supplement around 3000 mg of potassium daily, I sometimes feel the need for more. How much more can I take considering that supplementing potassium is a risky thing?
     
  13. Adster

    Adster Senior Member

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    I take a lot of magnesium, at least 400mg of citrate with each meal and also 1/2 -1ml of transdermal mag applied morning and night. The TD mag makes a big difference; I ran out recently and went downhill in a big way. Only a specific TD mag seems to work, no idea why: http://www.iherb.com/Nutricology-Magnesium-Chloride-Liquid-8-fl-oz-236-ml/3446 . If you read the reviews it seems I'm not the only person who found that.

    Too much mag citrate will cause loose stools.

    I'm not sure what the role of the zinc is specifically, but I do better overall when I take it.
     
  14. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    I might be able to shed some light on the problems you guys have with adenosylcobalamin (AdoCbl, AdB12, dibencozide). It's not good for me either - it exacerbates my fundamental CFS fatigue. Years ago my research involved the design and synthesis of adenosyl-/adenosine-containing drug mimics of natural products. That adenosyl functionality (component) lends the potential to interfere with (inhibit) many enzymes in the human body that use adenosine-containing substrates or cofactors.

    So either AdB12 itself and/or a metabolite/reaction product (including adenosine) is likely simply inhibiting one or more of these enzymes. There are too many possibilities to know for certain which, but since we're talking about the Methionine (methylation) Cycle here, and just as an example only, a potential troublemaker in that pathway might be S-adenosylhomocysteine hydrolase (AdoHcy hydrolase). It converts AdoHyc to homocysteine + adenosine. It's inhibited by many adenosine analogues and derivatives. So, theoretically, taking large (non-physiological) amounts of AdB12 could inhibit the function of that enzyme in susceptible people (i.e., those with a particular SNP or combinations of SNP's) to the point they'd feel bad. Again, this is just a single possible example (it's probably hindering to some degree many pathways in large doses).

    The bottom line is that by taking AdB12 you may be "shooting yourself in the foot" and blocking (if only temporarily) the very pathways you're hoping to increase activity in. Personally, since I'd already bought a bottle of the stuff a while back (Source Naturals, 10mg), I'm just taking a tablet once or twice a week - when I'm not planning on needing to be active - to (possibly) top off my stores of this form for the time being. Once I run out I won't use it anymore. There's no need for the vast majority of people - both hydroxycobalamin and methylcobalamin are normally converted to adenosylcobalamin to about the same degree. I only bought it in the first place because my succinate levels tested low and I wanted to see if attempting to increase the activity of methylmalonyl-CoA mutase, which uses AdB12 as a cofactor, might help. It didn't. (I'd actually first tried it several years ago and was just double-checking.)

    If AdB12 makes a person feel bad, I'd just stick with hydroxycobalamin if you're an "overmethylator" (you're COMT+ and/or you react badly to SAMe and MeB12) or with MeB12 if you're an "undermethylator" (you're COMT- and/or you like SAMe or react badly to hydroxycobalamin). Or a combination of both if you're somewhere in between.
     
  15. arx

    arx Senior Member

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    Thanks nandixon.
    Can't the bad feeling which I am getting after AdB12 be considered detox also? Like you get worse before you get better. Don't know for how long,though.
     
  16. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    Nandixon, thanks for the insight. I understand what you are saying. However, is it also a possibility that in some individuals due to their genetic make up the enzyme that would convert MB12 or Hydroxyb12 to Adb12 is deficient? I strongly suspect that is the case for me. I tend to crave Adb12 for energy production, but the dose I need is almost homeopathic. Any more and yes I either run into detox (perhaps due to a long term chronic deficiency and resulting toxicity) or like you suggest a sort of paradoxical reaction where too much (even if it looks like very little) causes the reverse effect. Would in this case a person who's genetics puts them in this sort of a rock and a hard place still technically benefit from Adb12, but perhaps in much smaller carefully controlled doses?
     
  17. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    Hi Anteah,

    If you have a partial defect in forming adenosylcobalamin, then you would see elevated levels of methylmalonate (methylmalonic acid) in your urine due to methylmalonyl-CoA mutase being impaired. If you were faced with a catch-22 situation (your "rock and a hard place") where another pathway somewhere was adversely affected by supplementing directly with AdB12, then you would use high doses of hydroxycobalamin (hydroxocobalamin) instead.
     
  18. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, nan.

    I just want to note that the methylmalonic acid marker is not always reliable in ME/CFS, because of deficiencies in one or more of the B-complex vitamins that are needed upstream in that pathway. I know this because I have seen results of the methylation pathways panel and urine organic acids results on the same people.
    Best regards, Rich
     
    Lotus97 likes this.
  19. Anteah

    Anteah Senior Member

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    OK, thanks Nandixon. I guess that's my next thing is to try Hydroxy B12. But I was under impression though that the reason we are supplementing with co-enzymated forms of B12 is because we are not too efficient at breaking down Hydroxy form. So is the idea to supplement with so much of Hydroxy B12 that we get enough of AbB12 despite the conversion deficiencies?
     
  20. nandixon

    nandixon Senior Member

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    Hi Anteah,

    Yes, that's what I meant. I can't find the reference now, but an article/book I found a few months ago made a secondary reference to a biochemistry textbook that apparently describes patients having defects in adenosylcobalamin synthesis who don't respond well to AdoCbl and need to be treated with hydroxycobalamin instead. If it works, hopefully you won't need much more than the 2mg amount Rich recommends, because OH-B12 seems the most expensive form, at least here in the US. I use the 1mg sublingual made by AOR (from iHerb). I've seen 2mg tabs and drops too. Good luck!
     

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