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Active B12 Protocol Basics

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, May 8, 2011.

  1. kposs

    kposs

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    This thread may be helpful for those just starting. It contains recent opinions on the best brand of Methyl B12. Since the main post in this thread has not yet been updated, and as mentioned above, there is some question among veteran B12 users about the effectiveness of Jarrow's Methyl B12 after a possible change in formulation.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ve-you-tried-and-found-effective.18727/page-3
  2. onetruthseeker

    onetruthseeker

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    Hi everyone ... I'm new here and have become very impressed with the level of medical/nutritional knowledge that I am seeing here. It's obvious that many of you have experienced baffling and debilitating health problems and have done extensive research in trying to achieve some healing. I would like to ask you to consider my own mysterious and baffling symptoms in the hopes that you may have some insight into my situation.

    I have attributed many of my symptoms to Candida >> that is because I seem to have the most problems when I don't eat enough for a while (once or twice a day) and when I cheat and consume too much sugar. When I relapse these are my symptoms:

    Feeling of extreme malaise
    back and chest pain
    premature ventricular contractions

    These symptoms disappear within an hour after eating beef >> other meats like chicken or pork do not seem to be nearly as effective in easing the symptoms. If I eat the beef at the first pangs of hunger >> the symptoms do not occur.

    Reading about the incidence of B12 deficiency has made wonder about this as a possible reason that beef seems to help me. I always simply assumed that for some reason the beef had something in it that helped my liver to remove the candida toxins.

    The following is a recap of my struggles with candida and how this strange beef syndrome began:

    My life experiences with Candida Albicans

    I first became aware of Candida after reading some books about nutrition and one book in particular >>
    "The Yeast Connection" by William G. Crook, M.D.

    The information led me to understand that I had a small problem with Candida overgrowth ... in order to address the problem I began taking vitamins and a natural anti-fungal nutrient "Caprylic acid" which seemed to help with my mild symptoms, but I had no idea at the time just how serious my Candida problem would eventually become. I was therefore quite unconcerned and not especially serious about self-treatment or about any strict dietary regimen for controlling it. I was probably around 20 years old at the time.

    The first time Candida tried to kill me ... I had no idea what was wrong with me. This was around 20 years ago when I was about 37 years old. It all started when I caught the Flu ... there were 2 different strains circulating that year > and I caught both of them within 3 weeks. In addition to this while trying to recover ... I also contracted a severe case of food poisoning. All this occurred within the period of about one month. After this I was very weak ... felt very ill and did not seem to be able to recover my full health.

    One puzzling symptom was revealed ... If I ate lean hamburger I would feel much better for a while. But I had to do this every four hours or else I would feel very ill again, I even had to set the alarm and wake up after 4 hours and eat the beef or else I would wake up extremely ill.

    I went to several doctors explaining my unusual symptoms with no successful diagnosis >> my blood tests were all normal. Eventually by taking mega doses of vitamins and eating two hamburger patties every four hours >> I regained my strength and health. I now realize that the Flu and food poisoning had destroyed the natural intestinal flora and resulted in a Candida overgrowth. It wasn't until much later that I would do the research that would finally explain all of this. For some reason no other protein sources seemed to be effective in relieving my symptoms.

    The second time Candida tried to kill me ... I had regained my health and strength and abandoned my regimen of vitamins and beef that had restored me. I had also began eating too much sugar and nutritionally "empty" foods. I then began having serious symptoms that I did not relate to my previous episode of illness >> recurring sinus and respiratory infections, joint pains, skin eruptions, anxiety, headaches, mental confusion, chest and back pain, exhaustion and malaise. It even got to the point where I was experiencing heart symptoms like PVC's (premature ventricular contractions) and symptoms of toxic shock. Once again doctors could not provide an answer >> but by returning to my regimen of vitamins and beef I began to recover. This is when I began my research into what was causing my illness. I still had not associated these symptoms to Candida overgrowth.

    I began my search by investing in medical books concerning diagnosis of diseases ... I was able to eliminate many causes of illnesses. However no 'one' disease seemed to explain all of my symptoms >> even the sections on Candidiasis did not seem to include all of my symptoms. I had also recently invested in a computer and learned to use it >> when I researched Candidiasis online >> a more complete description of the systemic candida syndrome was revealed to me.

    I used that information to establish a more complete and comprehensive regimen of nutrition which included the following:

    The elimination of sugar and replacement with Stevia

    The addition of Whey protein to alkalize the intestine

    The use of probiotics

    The addition of certain vitamin, amino acids and mineral supplements

    The use of herbal anti-fungals ("Fungal Defense" - consisting of Oregano and Olive leaf extracts)

    In my research I found out that Candida causes a deficiency in aspartic acid ... I also learned that some individuals who have a genetically caused difficulty with the absorption of magnesium are also immuno-compromised in such a way that they are predisposed to candida and systemic overgrowth, prompting me to begin supplementing my diet with magnesium aspartate.

    By doing these things and eating the beef >> I once again regained my health and became completely asymptomatic ... the recurring sinus and respiratory infections stopped .... the PVC's stopped .... no more joint pain ... I still have the skin eruptions but I have found that chlotrimizole heals them within 1 or 2 days.

    It seems clear to me now that the beef has something in it that helps my liver to eliminate the candida toxins ... this is why it makes me feel better and helps me to recover.

    Even knowing all this >> I still sometimes stray from my regimen ... partially because I become complacent and partly because I cannot always afford to follow it to the letter. This is the case now as I realize that some of my symptoms have returned and that I need to once again endeavor to eliminate sugar and return to a more healthy diet >> I am finding it neccesary to once again eat the beef regularly until I get my systemic candidiasis under control once more.

    It seems now that some of the symptoms that I am experiencing now >> which I have been attributing to high blood pressure >> are actually due to a candida relapse.

    Unfortunately, sometimes I have difficulty in remembering, recognizing and relating the symptoms as being caused by candida >> because of the anxiety and mental fog that accompanies the condition. This causes me additional stress and anxiety until I realize the problem and understand that I need to return to my nutritional regimen as I am trying to do now. Already today ... the symptoms of chest and back pain and malaise have been alleviated simply by eating some beef and taking some vitamins. I am going to once again eliminate sugar for a while and increase my dosage of "Fungal Defense".

    Fungal Defense has herbal anti-fungals like Syrian Oregano and Olive leaf extract as well as protease and cellulase.

    It seems to me that this is why sugar has been shown to be detrimental to the immune system ... because candida suppresses the immune system .... and sugar feeds candida. One good dose of sugar can effectively double the number of candida organisms in the system if the good flora are not intact to prevent this. I would not be suprised if this syndrome is directly involved in the proliferation of cancer and diabetes. The introdution of sugar and refined empty foods into the diet is very dangerous especially for those who are genetically predisposed to systemic candida overgrowth. Also the imbalance in the natural flora of the intestines caused by antibiotics and sugar as well as the imbalance that can be caused by flu virus and food poisoning are a serious concern and the symptoms of the resulting candida overgrowth are not always recognized in the medical community.
  3. onetruthseeker

    onetruthseeker

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    I'm now of the opinion that this is a potassium problem because it took about three days for the diuretic (first time using) to bring me back into the "beef syndrome" with back pain and PVC's. An hour after a dose of beef the PVC's and back pain went away again >> plus getting better since I quit the diuretic (Hydroclorothiazide) I must not be able to hold on to potassium well .... or else I get really depleted when I do not eat enough "real" meals.
  4. Michael

    Michael

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    Hello,
    I am relatively new to this forum. I have spent MANY hours studying posts. I finally started up on Fred's recommended protocol. I'd like to know which form of active B12 assists most in the lowering of homocysteine?? My level is now 11.2. I am diagnosed w FMS and also have much fatigue-- for many years. I have NON-stop tinnitus. I am now taking, and allowing to dissolve slowly in my mouth, folate and mb12, and adb12. I also discussed w a friend this forum(she also has FMS) and she wonders if Fred's /Freddd's recommendation to NOT take whey also applies to raw, unpasteurized whey? thanks, Michael
  5. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    By exogenously you mean taking something like reduced Glutathione or Acetyl Glutathione? I noticed that Rich doesn't have Glutathione supplementation in his most recent methylation protocol and Fredd seems to have an even stronger opinion about it.
  6. lucyhem

    lucyhem

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    Hello


    I would like to join this conversation about B12. I have been dealing with so many symptoms over years, including fatigue, insomnia, memory loss, difficulty concentrating etc that I have not paid a lot of attention to this gradually growing and spreading pain that sounds like a B12 deficiency neuropathy. It started with burning in the bottoms of my feet at night, now it is feet, hands, calves and other parts of my body, migrating around my body. As someone who once practiced yoga diligently and who loves to dance and move, this is devastating. If I try to stretch it gets worse. I am glad I am getting closer to understanding it, but this is my dilemma.:
    I tested homozygous for 677t. That is the only SNP I have tested for and frankly, it just gets too overwhelming to get more information. I did Rich's modified protocol for a year and my levels of b vitamins did not go up. I got my test results back two weeks before Rich died last fall so I never got to ask him about them. I was so discouraged about the test results and deeply saddened by his unexpectied loss that I quit the protocol and left the forum. I am just coming back now to restart.
    I tested my levels w Geneva's Metabolic Analysis before starting the protocol to get a baseline. They actually all went DOWN slightly afterwards. I used the sublingual B12 drops from Lasko. The Enzymatic Therapy ones make me feel weird and a little anxious. Does that mean they are working, or might I be sensitive to some of the fillers? What does that indicate? Methyl B12 shots don't seem to do much for me. Maybe I should try them again. I am trying to tease it all apart and figure out why my levels of B12 would not increase w sublingual. I know I need some gut healing so that explains why the other B's including methylfolate did not go up. RIght now I am on a low dose SSRI that seems to reduce the pain about 80% so I hope I will notice when the methyl B's start working.
    I want to address this B12/methylfolate thing because I believe it will make a difference. How to start absorbing B12 and how will i know? Where to start given my seeming sensitivity to it in some sublingual forms. The Lasko drops did not bother me but they did not seem to do much either.


    thank you,
    Lucy
  7. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    That can be a symptom of methylation. Did you continue taking the Enzymatic one after that happened?
  8. lucyhem

    lucyhem

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    Montague, MA
    I think I would take breaks, then try it again. The effect was almost instantaneous, like w my food sensitivities so Iwonder if that would be methylation happening so quickly. I just tried it again today after a long break and had a similar response.
    BTW I love your quote. It is so necessary to keep all of this in perspective and I appreciate that thought.
  9. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Thanks :) Are you taking methylfolate with the B12? If so you might want try lowering the dose of methylfolate and/or lowering the dose of methyl B12. Some people need to start at a lower dose than others.
  10. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Does it matter if you take methylfolate with food or an empty stomach?
  11. Xara

    Xara Senior Member

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    The Netherlands
    I have read somewhere over here (I believe it was Freddd himself) that it is important not to take methylfolate with vitamin C or iron supplements, they make each other inactive (they bond together, or what's it called in English).
    I reckoned that if iron supplements are no good, iron in food would be no different.
    So I take methylfolate on an empty stomach. Or if that's not possible I let it melt beneath my tongue. (or crush it and massage it in under my tongue).
    Lotus97 likes this.
  12. tom30

    tom30

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    Hi, I eat a lot of vegetables, I follow a paleo based diet and I'm concerned about the response for q3. is your recommendation to not eat many vegetables? I eat around a pound a day (spring mix, broccoli, celery whatevers organic and fresh). I've had unexplained periods of low b12 under 200 on the blood test over the last several years and tried injections which made me ill with flu like symptoms, I'm currently taking jarrow b12 and just preparing to start jarrow methyl folate (quatrefolic) 5-mthfr 400mcg. I also take omega 3 and d3( costco brand) and jarrow mk-7. It is really strange how I found this page for years I always had different symptoms that I thought to be related to CFS but brushed them off... about 8 years ago I had a AI issue that resolved after a yr on predisone ( if I knew then what I know know I would have tried changing my diet / vitamins first) and then started seeing low blood counts. The doctors are puzzled over the cause after 5 year of tests. In November I started a Paleo diet and introduced D3 and K2 and felt a nice change overall and modest improvements in my blood counts but started to become moody and anxious. My doctors pretty much are useless on this alternative stuff but I do check before I start anything for an opinion and nod that it's ok. I have not been tested for MTHFR after reviewing my tests but after reading about it for the last 2 weeks I will be getting that done. So what I'm asking could vegetables be causing an issue with my methylation cycle. thank you
  13. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I came across this reference recently, not sure if it's been posted before. It might be a good idea for people to check to make sure they're not taking anything else that can compete with folate or b12, either.

  14. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    I was taking Fluoxetine (and 1500 mcg of folic acid) and I still felt the effects of 100 mcg Quatrefolic methylfolate. I'm not saying the info is wrong, just saying...
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Tom,

    I eat probably more than average veggies. Sometimes If I ham having trouble getting the insufficiency symptoms to go away I decrease veggies for a few days. It's certainly worth trying. I also find that taking a sizable dose 30 minutes before eating to be partially effective. Further not taking the mfolate with potassium or Vit C increases absorption and frequent dosing, 4-5x per day to be more effective than fewer doses. So veggies could be interfering. They did for me all my life.
  16. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Haha, yeah, I take 10mg fluoxetine and I still get 5-MTHF effects, too. Might be related to the dosage and the fact that it's only a noncompetitive inhibition.
  17. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    Me too.
  18. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Odd that it is a non-competitive inhibitor. That makes the kinetics complicated. If the reference is true I wouldn't just toss it under the rug and forget about it. Noncompetitive inhibition is very different than standard competitive inhibition, especially as relates to transport. Competitive is standard blocking type interaction, non-competitive can result in inhibition but may be allosteric in nature with a very different chemical equilibrium.

    On a separate note, I take medrol every morning and my serum folate is through the rough above the limit and that is taking no folic or folinic acid. Only 5mthf supplements and diet.
  19. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Well, I suppose if we take the mfolate before or after fluoxetine, rather than at the same time, we should be fine? The inhibition takes place in the intestine, according to that source (haven't looked it up, though).
  20. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Sounds like take the methyfolate 20-30 minutes before to let the bulk of it get absorbed. Couldn't hurt to try and see if there is any difference. If after a few day you no difference then don't worry about it. But again non competitive inhibition of an enzyme is a very different beast than simple competitve.

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