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Active B12 Protocol Basics

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, May 8, 2011.

  1. Jigsaw

    Jigsaw Senior Member

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    @keenly,

    Hi,

    What's the connection between methylation, B12, and iodine?
     
  2. Creachur

    Creachur

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    I find B12 useful but a lot of the B12 theory makes my head spin!

    I have been using methyl-B12 but recently found that adeno-B12 gave me an extra boost. I take about 1000mcg of each sublingually. Is it okay to take the two at the same time?

    Thank you for any information.

    (PS: I take Swanson's adeno-B12 plus hydroxo-B12 but I am ignoring the hydroxo-B12. I also take 800mcg of Solgar's metafolin at the same time.)
     
    Jigsaw likes this.
  3. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Yes, I use a mixed adenosyl/methyl product from the Aussie oil company. That combo works best for me.
     
  4. grapes

    grapes Senior Member

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    Freddd definitely feels they should be taken separately as I understand it. Yet I see garyfritz does well with both. This is my string, by the way: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ng-off-hydroxy-b12-starting-methyl-b12.50562/
     
  5. grapes

    grapes Senior Member

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    With 30 pages in this string, I haven't yet gotten all through it, but can someone explain to me what it takes to get my high B12 into my cells?? It's went to 1500 while taking Methyl B12 and then over 2000 while taking the Adenosyl/Hydroxy...and with symptoms of low B12 to match---numbness in little fingers, limbs easily going numb.

    I then switched to Hydroxy-only which got rid of those symptoms.

    But after over a month, read what Freddd stated, moved back over to Methyl B12 more than 3 weeks ago and started to raise my Folate. Today I'm on 2000 mcg Methyl and 1600 folate...and my symptoms of B12 deficiency are coming back royally--numbness. Is this about raising the folate a lot more?? Or am I going to need to add some Hydroxy back into the mix for awhile??
     
  6. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    I haven't seen any coherent explanation of who needs which flavor and why. I think we're stuck with "try them all and see what works for you." Sounds to me like your body functions well with hydroxy, so if it was me I'd stick with that. (Want some hydroxy/methyl oil?? :))
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
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  7. grapes

    grapes Senior Member

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    Hi Gary. I've read what Freddd has been stating all over this forum and it seems very logical to me. That though I felt better on hydroxy as far as getting rid of low B12 symptoms, it's not the best way to go for my body. Hydroxy will convert to the Methyl and Adenosyl versions of B12 (the needed active forms), yes, but it also USES methyl and Adenosyl to do the conversion. And we end up with not enough of either as a result. And he explains that methyl B12 is needed for at least 600 functions in the body, thus it's important to have enough. That's impressive.

    So....since I've got high levels of B12 in the blood and symptoms of a functional deficiency, I think at the moment I'm going to focus more on raising my folate even higher and see if that will start breaking down that high serum B12. I had already done a spectracell test which showed I was borderline deficient with folate anyway. I've seen one gal on here in the 4000 mcg/4mg area, and Freddd has stated some go as high as 30,000 mcg/30 mg.

    And I saw where Freddd answered to someone with a similar issue like this:

    I suspect that you do have a partial block of methionine synthase because of lack of enough methylfolate. That is probably preserving glutathione depletion, which results in a functional B12 deficiency. The latter would account for the buildup of B12 in your blood. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lation-protocol-poll.3579/page-11#post-296554
     
  8. Creachur

    Creachur

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    Grapes, that's a great thread and you provided direct text of some very useful info. Thank you. Trouble is that each bit I read from your initial posts makes great sense but I can't put it all together because there are so many parts. In fact, I can't even work out what to start taking experimentally.

    One important message I got from your threads was the link you gave to a definition of methyl trap where the web page went on to explain that "The unassuming consumer who takes supplements with methylating B vitamins may experience varying degrees of neurotoxic symptoms". It's nice to have that clearly explained because some of the explanations I have come across may as well been written in Chinese.

    I am probably hoping for too much to ask for a nice short and simple set of supplements to try and some might consider me lazy for not putting in the necessary work. The discussions here of methylation seem like tuning a car engine with a lot of variables. My car engine (in other words my brain) seems to have stalled and only occasionally can I focus well enough to post at all; at other times I am going into stroke-like delirum with shifting levels of consciousness and confusion.

    I currently need some emergency get-me-home tuning, not red-hot race tuning which seems to be what some people are undertaking. Now I think maybe some of the enormous number of supplements I am taking may be worsening my problem rather than helping it. Where to start? I can't stop everything and start with a clean sheet because I know I will go into such confusion that I wouldn't be able to work out at all how to dress or wash. Really. For day or weeks on end. I have just emerged from a YEAR of this in which my life seemed over.

    How do I start?
     
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  9. grapes

    grapes Senior Member

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    OK, I don't know your situation, but if it's about noticing that your methylation isn't working properly, then I do have some answers based on all the reading and research I've done.

    For ME, it's very recent issue, in that it was only last Fall of 2016 that I was seeing rising B12 at 1500 (while on methyl B12) and rising iron (while on NO iron supplementation). By January of 2017, my B12 was "over 2000" (while on a combo of hydroxy B12/adenosyl B12) and my iron was in the upper 160s, which is WAY too high for a woman. I was also manifesting symptoms of a functional deficiency of B12---numbness in my legs and little fingers. I then moved to Hydroxy B12, which got rid of the deficiency symptoms...BUT...I was quickly to find out from Freddd that it was NOT the way to go using Hydroxy B12, even if it helped me lose those deficiency symptoms.

    First, his brilliant info taught me that we NEED methyl B12--he said start at 1000 mcg a day. It affects over 600 functions in our body, and it should be the main B12 in our cells. He said to make one's way up to 15,000-20,000 mcg over many weeks or months I don't know yet if that will be true for me. I've only gone up to 2000 mcg and am work in progress on all this. (I also stopped the B12 today since my blood B12 is still quite high i.e. over 2000, and am instead raising folate. More on that later) And by the way, I have six ++ FUT2 which can affect absorption of B12. hmmmm

    We also need some adenosyl B12--he said to take twice a week instead of methyl those two days, but I've also noticed him saying once a week in another place. He also said to wait a week before starting. That's the B12 that resides in our mitochondria. (That really struck me as I have a mito issue, too, probably from mold damage, and later high copper. So I could see how important that was for me.) I've seen to start on 500 mcg and work one's way up to 30,000-40,000 mcg (I also saw up to 50,000 in another comment)...but again, don't know if I would need that much yet. Still work in progress.

    Now WHY would I want to get back on methyl B12 and adenosyl B12 when I know for a fact that my serum B12 was rising on both, and I was having deficiency symptoms?? This where l-folate comes in...and you want to be sure and use an active one, like Metafolin, of any of these: L-5-MTHF or L-5-Methyltetrahydrofolate or 6(S)-L-MTHF or 6(S)-L-Methyltetrahydrofolate or (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid. Interestingly in early March 2017, I did a Spectracell test, and guess what was "borderline deficient"? Folate (and other B's) !!! And guess what else?? I also am ++ and+- for MTRR, which is a folate SNP, resulting in poor methylation of B12. I just clearly need way more folate than I've been taking all this time...and perhaps THAT is one reason my methylation started working poorly. So I'm now up to 2000 mcg and will keep going up to see if that will help my B12 break down for use!! I retested my B12 and on 1600 mg folate, it's STILL "over 2000".

    Also important is L-carnitine fumerate--the fumerate is an important version apparently. Carnitine works with the adenosyl and the two are important combinations for energy and mood. It's recommended to start low, such as 250 mg and make your way up to approx 1000 mg a day. I was already on it.

    Finally, since using all the above will help methylation to kick in, your potassium requirements will go up, up for your cell division!! Without extra potassium, they say you will notice this by day 3. For me, it was day 5, and I noticed increasing fatigue. So I got on 4 cups of V8 juice a day to equal 2000 mg of potassium (500 mg a cup). Really helped. I have stayed on it for over two weeks now. I've also read that increasing folate will increase the need for potassium, too.

    It's also mentioned to be on on SAM-e because it makes the methylcobalamin more effective. I'm on 400 mcg and was before I even started all the above. And to use TMG, which enhances the effects of SAM-e, Methyl B12 and L-Carnitine. I'm taking SO MANY supps right now due to various issues that I'm not on TMG.

    I am also bringing up other B's which Spectracell said were borderline deficient, including biotin and b6 and other nutrients. I highly recommend Spectracell testing, but be prepared it's expensive.

    Anyway, the above is a start and I hope it helps. I'm going to add it to my own string, which is basically a diary of what I'm doing and what is working...plus I paste in any excellent info I find researching these forums: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ng-off-hydroxy-b12-starting-methyl-b12.50562/
     
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  10. AlwaysTired

    AlwaysTired

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    I have a question that I hope someone can answer. My naturopath have me a multi that has Naturefolate blend (5-FTHF + 5-MTHF from natural sources). Is the 5-FTHF form ok to take? The supplement is called metabolic synergy and because it also contains all other B vitamins (including B12 as methyl cobalamin) plus all the essential vitamins and minerals mentioned in the protocol, I would really like to be able to continue taking it.

    I am planning to buy the enzymatic therapy active B12 too but supplementing all these other things in addition is overwhelming and expensive!
     
  11. LynnJ

    LynnJ Senior Member

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    Are all the other "essential" supplements (zinc, vitamin E, fish oil, etc) TRULY, 100% essential? I confess I'm not taking them right now... Eek.

    I'm taking B12, folinic acid, B2, calcium, vitamin C (in a much lower dose than what's recommended here - I don't like C megadoses), and magnesium on a daily basis. Also some potassium as needed. I was thinking of adding in a kelp supplement, too.
     
  12. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    Freddd actually said that they "usually needs supplementing". I'm quite sure not everyone needs to supplement them.
     
  13. AlwaysTired

    AlwaysTired

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    I've only been taking mb12 and adenosyl b12 for the most part (some days I take a multi that has c, zinc, and a few other things he recommends) and have had some pretty amazing results.

    Everyone is different though. If it doesn't work for you leaving some stuff out maybe consider adding, or get your blood levels tested to see what's low?
     
  14. LynnJ

    LynnJ Senior Member

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    Okay, one more question, because I confess I'm STILL confused about this.

    I have - had - a folate deficiency. I am on a drug that depletes folate levels. I currently take more folate than B12. I take 2400mcg of folate, and 1000mcg of B12.

    I've seen mixed info on ideal ratios of B12/folate. But I feel like taking more folate than B12 makes sense for my situation. Can anyone help shed any light on whether these dosages are most likely okay, or if I'm making a mistake here?

    I feel good. I used to take 800mcg of folate with 1000mcg of B12, and I was experiencing more air hunger/shortness of breath and a racing heart. Since upping my folate to 2400mcg, I'm definitely improving.
     
  15. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

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    I made this post earlier in the thread.

    I thought I'd take this opportunity to link this article here.

    Clinical Experience with Use of Nutrition in Hospitals

    The introduction includes the case of a wheelchair-bound neurological patient given B12 while a second case involved a patient who woke up from surgery completely incoherent who was subsequently given a nutrition-oriented treatment.
     
  16. LynnJ

    LynnJ Senior Member

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    Thank you - that's helpful! I'm having a hard time keeping track of all this. Ugh. But I seem to be doing better taking around 2500mcg of folinic acid (the form my body seems to prefer by far), and 1000mcg of methyl B12. Still not doing GREAT, but better.
     

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