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Active B12 Protocol Basics

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, May 8, 2011.

  1. mellster

    mellster Marco

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    Optimal B12 serum level?

    I went from 36 to 48 ng/ml for D3 and from 301 to 656 pg/ml for B12 on supplementation and am wondering if I could go higher with the B12 as it has been very beneficial to me, I still get occasional shorter term (2-3 days) and lighter PEM (still a bitch) after strenuous workouts and some nerve stinging/tingling/burning issues and now that my gut has healed enough to absorb better I also noticed a huge, animalic craving for red meat following workouts. I always loved meat and still have moderate amounts 2-3 times a week, but I have been wondering whether we have it all wrong with the anti-meat agenda in our society and that the studies that link longer life expectancy to areas where there is not much meat consumption is rather due to healthier life style in general and that meat isn't bad for you in almost any amount as long as it's good (non-processed and hormonal) healthy meat and you are in good shape weight-wise. I am thinking about trying to go to 1000 pg/nl and beyond to see whether it gives further improvement, what do others think on what an optimal B12 level is (esp. Freddd or Rich). thx & cheers
  2. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    I think that's true about having it wrong with the anti-meat agenda. Most of that thinking is from the vegetarianism cult/fad that started in the UK a long time ago & was adopted by the hippie/alternative culture in the 60s. But some of the healthiest diets in the world - mediterranean and japanese diets - use meat & fish as main components, and those people traditionally have lived very long & healthy lives.

    I've tried all the food combining BS for years, and imho there's no substitute for animal protein. It's true that corporate farming is a scourge and that we should try to support sustainable methods of meat production, but that obviously doesn't mean that vegetarianism is therefore better for your health. We evolved as hunter gatherers eating things like roots, nuts, berries, and small game and fowl. Maybe even occasionally big game. Native Americans ate buffalo and lived long healthy lives - ever see some of those pictures of old Native Americans? They must be 90 yo at least. So vegetarianism with its heavy reliance on agricultural products is actually the diet that's less natural to the way our bodies evolved, and most of us could probably do better with sane amounts of animal protein from clean, hormone-free, etc. and sustainable sources. JMHO
    madietodd likes this.
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi LargeRBcells,

    Out of 10 brands fully tested and some others with short trials, only 2 brands were foundf that were 5 star rated, 2 others that were not formerly rated but based on descriptions could be 4+ stars. Most were 1 or 2 stars which were pretty bad. Despite the nominal dose of 5mg it may only be 1% as effective as a 1mg Enzymatic Therapy or Jarrow. Until you try those you won't know how this brand was. So far your description is not one of a sock knocker.

    The methylb12 isn't melatonin, but mb12 can help generate melatonin. Normalizing sleep is a result of mb12. Hope you keep doing well.
    LargeRBcells likes this.
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Mellster,

    To keep serum level in perspective, I need a serum level of about 200,000pg/ml to keep my nervous system from falling apart. I don't know what an optimum level might be for people with the CSF/CNS cobalamin deficiency as with CFS and FMS. Without that CNS deficiency perhaps 6000pg/ml might be close to excellent for most people not having a CNS/CSF deficiency. A lot depends upon having the right varieties and not having had damage which requires more to maintain function that doesn't get repaired
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Please take all discissions to other threads to keep this one short so people can find the basics or we will have to discard this one in favor of a new basics thread. Thankyou.
  6. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    hi Mr.Kite,

    I'm gonna second that on the Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex. After reading what you said I ordered some and have taken it the last 3 days. So far I've only taken up to 1/5th of the capsule <2 mg> in water with food and I seem to get a more pronounced energy boost than I do with taking 5mg of the Source Naturals Dibencozide sublingual. So maybe it could be that the Anabol is a much better brand than the Source Naturals..I don't know. Maybe it also has something to do with the Anabol adding boron to it for some added synergy but not sure that could be the reason because it only has 200 mcg in it per capsule. Most seperate boron supps I have seen are 3 mg's.

    I've only taken it with food like the instructions say. When you take yours, do you take it with food or on an emtpy stomach? Wondering if on an empty stomach would have a better effect..although I am having some stomach distress since starting this protocol so that might highten my stomach distress if I took it on an empty stomach. I can try it next at a smaller dose to see what kind of reaction I get.
    jeffrez likes this.
  7. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    Also, this is now making me question if my seperate P5P supplement is doing me any favors since it's from Source Naturals.
  8. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    Sorry, but I've read this first post about a dozen times and still can't figure out what to start out with and dosages. Can someone help me?

    EDIT: I think I figured out that to start there are 7 supplements:
    1. Jarrow B12
    2. Enzymatic B12
    3. Solgar Metafolin
    4. Dibencozide
    5. B-complex with Metafolin
    6. Potassium
    7. omega 3's

    However, still not sure about dosage.

    Thanks!
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I posted your item to the active thread with the reply.

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?188-B-12-The-Hidden-Story/page63
  10. daisychain

    daisychain

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    For those in the UK who can't get hold of the recommended B-complexes, there's a Biocare one called B Plex which contains no folic acid or b12. It doesn't have metafolin or methylb12 either, but I figured it's better to have nothing than to have the harmful forms of the vitamins.
  11. DavidZ

    DavidZ

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    Freddd, have you tried Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex, yet? I'm intrigued by Mr. Kite's observations and am interested in your assessment.
  12. fishersta

    fishersta

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    I am about four weeks into the active protocol with positive if not huge results to date, and have now several questions:

    1. My understanding from one of Freddd's post is that the metafolin/methyl B-12 sequencing is metafolin 15 minutes before and after each meal, then methyl B-12 some time after the post- metafolin. Is this correct? Also, where in this should the adb12 fit in?

    2. The list of Basic Vitamins and Supplements lists Solgar metafolin 800mcg which I took as indicating that is the daily dosage. However, in a recent post Freddd indicated that an adequate dosage of metafolin would be 3200mcg per meal...so I am confused, what is the appropriate range of metafolin dosage?

    3. I have not seen anything regarding appropriate dosages of L-carnitine fumarate, TMJ or alpha lipoic acid.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HYPERSENSITIVITY IDENTIFIED

    As I have been saying there are 4 specific b12 and cofactor deficiencies. I have pinned down one of them that hadnt been identified before as a separate thing.

    This specific pattern, of neurological mitochondria shutdown, has some specific characteristics. There is an extreme hypersensitivity to adenosylb12 and/or l-carnitine fumarate and sometimes methylfolate if the person converts to adb12 well enough. The first one in may have no effect or may be hyper responsive. The second one taken often causes a huge response. So, in one case, l-carnitine fumarate, perhaps 50mg, as first taken, has no effect. A week later after that was out of the system, adenosylb12 was taken and had no effect and was established. After a few day of adenosylb12 the response to < 1mg of l-Carnitine fumarate is out of this world intense. After that an increase in methylb12 is also extreme, but not the nominal 500mcg already established as that is rolled into the l-carnitine response. So we see the dependence of the nerves on adb12-LCF activating the mitochondria in order to have a response to mb12. The specific mix of these responses depends on the person being extremely deficient of all 3 items in the CNS. The person however didnt have the symptoms of stalled methylation that one often sees in the epithelial tissues of the body. Body does not have much in the way of symptoms compared to the neurological and neuro-psyc. It is mostly neurological.

    The mood characteristics show a great deal of anxiety as a base condition. Sudden emotional changes or storms, can look bipolar. Sudden rage, panic attacks etc all are very much worsened by adb12, mb12, LCF once the mutual dependencies are no longer blocking each other. Often risk sports or pseudo risk entertainments, roller coasters, bungee jumping, parachute jumping, fast boats, fast cars, fast anything are too much and too scary. OCD or elements of it may be present. These have to do typically with neural dopamine processing. These symptoms, as well as others including certain neuromuscular, may be present or caused or worsened by benzo usage, especially in those who are experiencing what is commonly called tolerance withdrawal which appears to be more a late or slow onset side effect. There are a lot more characteristics to really pin it down. However, those just clarify how it manifests. Low dopamine symptoms have to appear for Parkinsons to be diagnosed. Recent research has shown that Parkinsons has low CSF cobalamin, elevated CSF MMA and hypothesis that 20 years or more of damage from mal or non functioning neural mitochondria causes Parkinsons and here we have damaged neurons from low adb12-LCF and the beginning of the emotional/personality characteristics often found in Parkinsons (or some forms of Parkinsons) from these damaged neurons. The question comes down to:
    HOW SOON BEFORE PARKINSONS DIAGNOSIS CAN CORRECTING THE DEFICIENCIES CORRECT THE DAMAGE AND/OR PREVENT MORE DAMAGE?

    Most of these neuro-psyc symptoms appear to be linked to limbic system damage. The hypothesis is that 20 years or more of neurological damage from non-functioning neuro-mitochondria with low CSF cobalamin and elevated CSF MMA (non-functioning mitochondria by virtue of CSF adenosylb12/l-carnitine-fumarate deficiency as indicated by elevated CSF MMA) which has these symptoms is Parkinsons disease. Furthermore, Parkinsons disease is associated with limbic system damage.

    It is these extreme deficiencies that appear to damage the neurons and causes the extreme hyper responsiveness. A micro titration of mb12, adb12 and l-carnitine fumarate can build the levels up, eventually to levels that according to the Japanese studies, up-regulates neurological healing. As the damaged neurons are reactivated they are extremely irritable and there is an increase in symptoms. Tapering the benzos may be helpful for turning down the secondary low dopamine symptoms. The benzos can cause a change in the dopamine receptors which appears to cause these Parkinsons type symptoms when a person has the adb12/carnitine deficiency damaged neurons.
    This one subgroup, with hypersensitivity to at least adenosylb12 and/or l
    carnitine fumarate and possibly mb12, with lots of anxiety, possibly with emotional outbursts, possible instant rage or killing rage, OCD or OCD like, doesn't get a thrill from thrilling activities, fear instead. Then adb12, mb12 or l-carnitine fumarate can, in tiny quantities trigger any or all in succession of the emotional responses. Also, benzos are frequently prescribed for the deficiency symptoms, and when the dose is large enough, it has an effect on the dopamine receptors causing the above emotional responses which are mostly part of the "Parkinson's personality" and in benzo-board lingo is "tolerance withdrawal" rather than "late onset side effects". Tolerance withdrawal is a far scarier term than "side effects". This deficiency appears to damage the limbic system. Then, when the neurons that are now hypersensitive are exposed to anything that starts them producing ATP and transmitting signals they have painfully intense responses, just as different damage can produce intense pain or bodywide pain sensitivity. When looking up the limbic system the disease mentioned that is at least in part caused by damage to the limbic system specifically is Parkinson's.

    It appears that the damage appears to keep increasing for years and years until it becomes PARKINSONS, ALS, MS, SUPRA NUCLEAR PALSY and ALZHEIMERS, probably depending upon the exact mix of deficiencies, the exact neurological areas damaged or other factors. Until methylb12, adenosylb12 and l-carnitine fumarate are all brought up to the level that prevents further damage and then to a level that can heal the damage if possible, it is likely that the damage just keeps on going.

    This specific aspect is not a methylation problem but that may also be a cofactor. This can be limited to the brain and cord with little or no body involvement. Hydroxycbl does not replace the adnenosylb12 but some people can convert the methylb12 to adenosylb12 to some extent. Further the double or triple deficiency with the l-carnitine fumarate and mb12 assures that no single substance can repair this. It HAS to be a complicated (many substances) protocol with careful titration.

    If a person is going to heal from this, assuming that is even possible, its only going to happen with the Active B12 Protocol. That a person can take hydroxcbl for years and it never touches it should be ample demonstration that it doesnt work as it is easily demonstrated that adb12, mb12 and l-carnitine fumarate plus cofactors starts working in minutes to hours. The extreme response demonstrates the extreme deficiency and resulting damage.

    A few people taking this from the b12 deficiency end of things who performed some of the titrations of adb12 of injections from 1 to 25mg or so and various ratios of adb12:mb12 discovered this increase in irritability. This irritability is at the heart of the Mr. Hyde transformation in b12 deficiency (mb12 fades first and fastest) and an overbalance of adb12 to mb12 which occasionally shows up when adb12 injections are in the 10-25mg range. Is this an early Parkinsons indicator? With only 2 people doing this series and only 1 person experiencing the mood/personality change, and others having exactly the opposite effect with high oral doses of both adb12 and LCF.

    Im still working out the details. I will have a micro-titration set of instructions posted shortly. And of course everybody is free to choose whatever hypothesis they want to work from.

    Choosing a strategy

    1 Avoiding everything that attempts to restore the neurons and mitochondria to a non-deficient state as that is too irritating and anxiety provoking. Unfortunately that appears unlikely to change the course of the disease progression.
    2 Rapid titration of the obviously active and effective substances to limit the number of days that have to be endured until the neuron startup effects are over. This will allow the doses to climb towards those needed to allow the body to restore the nervous system to normality (hopefully) with the up-regulated neurological healing the Japanese research speaks of. The accepted therapy doses of l-carnitine for restoration from technical deficiency is 3,000mg IV. A daily oral dose of l-carnitine in the 1000mg range is a quite normal supplement dose. Higher doses restores normality quicker or so goes the theories and actual results with all the items shown to have dose related effects produces more rapid and/or complete healing. LOTS OF UNKNOWNS.
    3 Slow titration of all the active and effective substances bringing them all into balance at each level before increasing to the next step. It may take a year to get the levels up to the usually effective healing levels which may or may not slow down healing. By slow titration the length of onset may be an entire year or more. Feathering it to get things increasing enough to give some adaptation, healing and recovery of function without making it intolerable is not always possible to do when the difference between tolerable results and intolerable may come down to a difference of 10mcg of LCF. LOTS OF UNKNOWNS,


    UNKNOWNS:

    1 Can the damage be reversed
    2 How many years of damage can be reversed
    3 Can damage be stopped from proceeding all the way to Parkinsons (MS, ALS, Alzheimers, SNP etc)
    4 How to reverse the damage and prevent it from continuing.

    Step right up and place your bets ladies and gentlemen, who is going to get sicker and who is going to heal? For that matter who can heal? Who hasnt yet crossed the line of no return into outright irreversible neurological disease. My experience with Subacute Combined Degeneration is that it can be partially reversed and many of the symptoms alleviated and progression very much slowed down. So in SACD some of the demyelization lesions do heal, just as they can in MS. As the limbic system becomes hyper irritable it seems reasonable to expect the same kind of lesions there and to expect them to heal in the same way requiring the same cofactors. We are all in the same boat much more so than many think. We just each are sitting by a different set of leaks.
    brenda likes this.
  14. Marlène

    Marlène Senior Member

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    Hello Freddd

    Do you advice to start to take the following supplements three times a day unless indicated differently?


    1. 5mg Methyl B12, under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness: should I start low and build up? (I am very deficient in B12.)
    2. Enzymatic Therapy 1mg B12 infusion, under upper lip or tongue for at least 45-120 minutes for best effectiveness
    3. Solgar Metafolin 800mcg
    4. Dibencozide (adenosylb12) 3mg under upper lip or tongue for at least 45 minutes for best effectiveness (idem 1)
    5. B-Right b-complex, 1 capsule twice a day
    6. Potassium - 99 mg
    7. Omega3 fishoils - essential for myelin sheathing for the nerves, many brands will do, 2-6+ capsules per day,
    8. Zinc - 50 mg, 1x day
    9. Calcium/magnesium - 1000/500 mg mg, 1x day
    10. D3 - 3000-5000 IU total
    11. A&D from fish oil, 10,000-(400-800-1000D) Vitamin A should be 10,000, D might be any of 3 numbers with additional D to be taken
    12. Vitamin E, Gamma complex
    13. Vitamin C- 4000+mg/day
    14. SAM-e – 200-400mg/day (I didn' order it because of hypersensitive reactions in the past)
    15. TMG (didn't order it because of 14. SAMe)
    16. L-carnitine fumarate - 855 mg
    17. Alpha Lipoic Acid - 300 mg
    18. D-Ribose (didn't order it because of lupus problems)
    19. Selenium -100 mcg, 1 x day
    20. Lecithin - 1200 mg
    21. Chromium GTF (I didn' order it because of copper problems)
    22. My other supplements: copper - 2 mg , 1 x day, dl-phenylalaline - 500 mg, 2 x day, raw thyroid, 1 x day, alkala n, 1 x day
  15. cureminded

    cureminded

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    Hi Jeffrez,

    Hi much water do you use for the dibencoplex. Is about a glass ok?

    Cheers,
    Cureminded
  16. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Oh yes, that should be more than enough. I'd estimate I put it in about 4-6 oz. No scientific measurements, I just poured some in to a small amt of water as I was taking my other supps. ;-)
  17. jeffrez

    jeffrez Senior Member

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    Just saw this response now. I've tried it both with food & on an empty stomach. I seem to get a good response either way, maybe only slightly stronger on an empty stomach. By now I'm guessing you've found what way works best for you, care to share your experience?
  18. Scavo86

    Scavo86 Senior Member

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    Bit of a general question here people which I hope you might be able to assist with. I take B12 by injection, every other day, 0.1ml Methyl but I also take a B-complex multivtamin which includes Folic acid. Having read through this thread is that considered a bad move that it has Folic acid in it as well? What should I be taking instead? Does anyone know of alternatives that are available in the UK? Please help this confused fellow :)
  19. Scavo86

    Scavo86 Senior Member

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    Apologies for posting on the wrong thread, thanks for pointing me in the right direction though, really appreciate it.
  20. LisaGoddard

    LisaGoddard Senior Member

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    Hi, I was just going to post asking that question!!! I am in the UK and have started the methylation protocol but have realised that my multivit has folic acid in it. You said it was the wrong thread so you've posted elsewhere? Let me know where please.
    Lisa

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