Active B12 Protocol Basics

[SuckSmoothie]

Hey all, I was experimenting with B12 and Folate but didn't have any luck for a while, as a matter of fact I only felt fatigue and nausea during the protocol.

Digging through threads I found studies on how light degrades methylb12 into hydroxyb12 with just minimal exposure to light and I was bringing my vitamins everywhere with me in a clear-coated pill container. I thought that maybe the study I read might apply to all forms of mb12 (injectable and lozenges), and that I had nothing to lose by keeping the b12 sealed in the bottle until it was time to take it

After the first dose of a "fresh b12" unexposed to light I feel extremely energetic, with no nausea or fatigue. Folate, potassium, adenob12 and Carnitine Fumarate have been kept constant, no other variables have changed so I believe this is an important discovery for me.

Here is a difference between a spoiled b12 and a fresh b12, sorry for the picture quality. If you're keeping your b12 in containers exposed to light then it might be breaking down into hydroxyb12 and causing donut hole folate deficiency since folate requires a certain amount of methylb12 to work perfectly

 

[Valentijn]

CBS +/+ - it takes sulphur through to the sulphation cycle and if SAM levels get low (which yours probably are), then you will have problems.

No, CBS doesn't do that, and it won't cause problems. It converts homocysteine into cysteine, which goes on to form glutathione. The CBS SNPs have no negative impact.

 

[douglasmich]

No, CBS doesn't do that, and it won't cause problems. It converts homocysteine into cysteine, which goes on to form glutathione. The CBS SNPs have no negative impact.

OK. Thanks for clearing that up. I am sort of moving away from the genetic obsession phase. Just trying what works. According to yasko i should run away from methylb12. But it helps alot.

 

[garyfritz]

Many people (@Valentijn in particular) are not impressed by Yasko's recommendations. Listen to your body. If methyl works for you, go with it.

Digging through threads I found studies on how light degrades methylb12 into hydroxyb12 with just minimal exposure to light

Right. For that reason I always apply the B12 oil in near-dark conditions if possible. Once it soaks into your skin it's not supposed to be a problem, but I generally either cover it with clothes, or go to bed, so I'm minimizing the light exposure.

On the other hand, I'm not sure hydroxy is always a bad thing. I got a hydroxy bottle from Greg as an experiment. I tried it and didn't notice any changes, so I went back to ado/me. But then about a month later I realized I'd had an improvement in a certain "morning male issue" a month or two previously, and the methyl was the main change I could remember. I had some hydroxy left in the bottle so I used it several nights in a row, and immediately noticed the same improvement again. Greg theorizes that I utilize hydroxy more slowly (due to how it's processed by the body), so possibly it's acting as a "slow-release" dose, and maybe there is more B12 left in my system by the time morning comes around. Which, if true, is probably better for my sleep quality and for my body overall. I'll be ordering another bottle of hydroxy for a more extended test.

I was bringing my vitamins everywhere with me in a clear-coated pill container. ... I had nothing to lose by keeping the b12 sealed in the bottle until it was time to take it.
After the first dose of a "fresh b12" unexposed to light I feel extremely energetic, with no nausea or fatigue. Folate, potassium, adenob12 and Carnitine Fumarate have been kept constant, no other variables have changed so I believe this is an important discovery for me.

Interesting, and great observation! I would not have expected the lozenges to be so light-sensitive. They're totally opaque so at worst, only the surface should be damaged. Possibly you react badly to hydroxy?

If you're keeping your b12 in containers exposed to light then it might be breaking down into hydroxyb12 and causing donut hole folate deficiency since folate requires a certain amount of methylb12 to work perfectly

My (vague and very imperfect) understanding is that your body processes hydroxy into methyl. Not sure if any SNPs might impede that reaction, like they affect other conversions into methyl.

 

[parabola]

If I were to continue using the country life dibencozide +folic once a week that I feel I do well with, and have been using for some months now.. Is that amountof folic acid enough to 'block' me if I were to begin to a methylfolate? I'm homozygous C677T but I have been doing better when i take the CL supp for a long time now

 

[SuckSmoothie]

Many people (@Valentijn in particular) are not impressed by Yasko's recommendations. Listen to your body. If methyl works for you, go with it.


Right. For that reason I always apply the B12 oil in near-dark conditions if possible. Once it soaks into your skin it's not supposed to be a problem, but I generally either cover it with clothes, or go to bed, so I'm minimizing the light exposure.

On the other hand, I'm not sure hydroxy is always a bad thing. I got a hydroxy bottle from Greg as an experiment. I tried it and didn't notice any changes, so I went back to ado/me. But then about a month later I realized I'd had an improvement in a certain "morning male issue" a month or two previously, and the methyl was the main change I could remember. I had some hydroxy left in the bottle so I used it several nights in a row, and immediately noticed the same improvement again. Greg theorizes that I utilize hydroxy more slowly (due to how it's processed by the body), so possibly it's acting as a "slow-release" dose, and maybe there is more B12 left in my system by the time morning comes around. Which, if true, is probably better for my sleep quality and for my body overall. I'll be ordering another bottle of hydroxy for a more extended test.


Interesting, and great observation! I would not have expected the lozenges to be so light-sensitive. They're totally opaque so at worst, only the surface should be damaged. Possibly you react badly to hydroxy?


My (vague and very imperfect) understanding is that your body processes hydroxy into methyl. Not sure if any SNPs might impede that reaction, like they affect other conversions into methyl.

I never reacted well to hydroxy, but that's besides the point.

A lot of people wanna get the best out of their b12 so setting the conditions for maximal absorption should be a given to anyone who's "hardcore" about their methylation, such as myself and most of us on this forum

 

[jengonwin]

Hey guys. I am new around here and have been lurking this thread for a while.

I was terrified of metafolin since a few years ago i took 200mcg and had terrible reactions. Like many others i bit the bullet and took 4mg one day and suddenly no issues.

I dont think i have a folate issue as i took up to 8mg with some mild neurological benefits.

I think b12 is what i have an issue with. Feel like my body needs quite a lot. Dibencozide and LCF didn't do much for me.

I have CFS/idiopathic symptoms

 

[SuckSmoothie]

Out of curiosity, what is everyone's potassium intake like? I've been taking 60mg of mb12 with 24mg of mfolate every day alongside low sodium v8 high in potassium, and I've noticed that whenever I feel fatigue, instead of drinking potassium once I pop another dose of b12 I feel significantly better. Since potassium is a b12 antagonist wouldn't it make my deficiency in b12 worse? I'm also low potassium but I feel like my dose of 600mg a day might be a little too much

I also fell asleep with b12 in my gums last night and woke up with loads of energy, what gives? I thought b12 caused insomnia?

 

[jengonwin]

For me 6000mg from diet.

If i start getting low potassium symptoms i put 300mg of the powder into water and drink.

Also your doses are crazy?

 

[SuckSmoothie]

For me 6000mg from diet.

If i start getting low potassium symptoms i put 300mg of the powder into water and drink.

Also your doses are crazy?

I have several MTR +/+ and MTRR +/+ SNP's so my B12 demand is high, and I threw in extra folate to balance out the B12 (oddly enough, I have no MTHFR snp's but I don't really feel the effects of b12 while its in my mouth until I take mfolate)

Trial and error got me to this dose, lower doses just made my brain fog and energy levels much worse. I'm also taking higher levels of B1 (100mg) as sulbiutamine to correct a deficiency, and the other B vits place a demand on folate and b12 according to Freddd

 

[garyfritz]

I've been taking 60mg of mb12 with 24mg of mfolate every day alongside low sodium v8 high in potassium, and I've noticed that whenever I feel fatigue, instead of drinking potassium once I pop another dose of b12 I feel significantly better.

60mg **IS** a pretty crazy dose. But if you're getting it from sublinguals, you're probably only absorbing 2-3% of it, so an effective dose of 1.5mg or so. Which is actually a relatively LOW level for this crowd. I get that much absorbed/usable mB12 from my 3x/day B12 oils, PLUS about 3x that much adenosyl.

I also fell asleep with b12 in my gums last night and woke up with loads of energy, what gives? I thought b12 caused insomnia?

Everybody seems to react differently to B12, probably resulting from their unique combination of SNPs. Some can't tolerate more than a few micrograms, some of us have troubles unless we pound 1000x that much. I pretty much can't sleep without B12 -- otherwise I get agitated, twitchy, can even develop almost a full-blown seizure, thrashing around in the bed. Pop 1/4 of a CL under my lip, and zzzzz... Dreamland.

So don't assume somebody else's reaction dictates yours. Your body is the ultimate arbiter for YOU. If you sleep better with B12 and wake up feeling great, I'd say your body needs it. Go with what works.

 

[SuckSmoothie]

60mg **IS** a pretty crazy dose. But if you're getting it from sublinguals, you're probably only absorbing 2-3% of it, so an effective dose of 1.5mg or so. Which is actually a relatively LOW level for this crowd. I get that much absorbed/usable mB12 from my 3x/day B12 oils, PLUS about 3x that much adenosyl.


Everybody seems to react differently to B12, probably resulting from their unique combination of SNPs. Some can't tolerate more than a few micrograms, some of us have troubles unless we pound 1000x that much. I pretty much can't sleep without B12 -- otherwise I get agitated, twitchy, can even develop almost a full-blown seizure, thrashing around in the bed. Pop 1/4 of a CL under my lip, and zzzzz... Dreamland.

So don't assume somebody else's reaction dictates yours. Your body is the ultimate arbiter for YOU. If you sleep better with B12 and wake up feeling great, I'd say your body needs it. Go with what works.

Thanks that was helpful. Another q: does the intracellular potassium level out in the long run when you've dialed in your b12 and folate dose? I've been needing less and less potassium nowadays and I see some people using outrageous b12 doses with just 200mg of supplemental potassium a day.

My hypothesis is that once your body jumps out of the pernicious anemia state from b12 deficiency, more of the b12 gets directed to healing nerve function so less potassium is needed because cells aren't rapidly diving anymore. That sounds too simple of an explanation for how the body works so I'll let someone else chime in on this

 

[parabola]

I think (for some of us at least) it must be possible to absorb much more than is estimated sublingually. From taking 3mg once a week, my doctor told me my levels are very high.

 

[garyfritz]

I think it has more to do with your B12 metabolism than with your sublingual absorption rate. Some of us just need a lot more. I was doing 3mg injected, per DAY, and it wasn't enough.

Freddd says 2-5% sublingual is typical, and I found a study that confirmed it.

 

[SuckSmoothie]

I think it has more to do with your B12 metabolism than with your sublingual absorption rate. Some of us just need a lot more. I was doing 3mg injected, per DAY, and it wasn't enough.

Freddd says 2-5% sublingual is typical, and I found a study that confirmed it.

Injected b12 and gluthanione never sat right with me. I remember standing up after the shot and it felt like I got hit with a bad hangover. I walked in fine into the docs office and left worse. Modern medicine in a nutshell

 

[jengonwin]

I think it has more to do with your B12 metabolism than with your sublingual absorption rate. Some of us just need a lot more. I was doing 3mg injected, per DAY, and it wasn't enough.

Freddd says 2-5% sublingual is typical, and I found a study that confirmed it.

Ok thank you for the information.

I might look into DIY trans-dermal. As the b12 oils are 50USD each. However if one pump is equivalent to 15mg sublingual b12 it might be worth it

 

[garyfritz]

Many people here have found that 1mg in oil form is at least as effective as 10-15mg of sublinguals.

More importantly, it just works better. It delivers the B12 more steadily than the sublinguals. It doesn't rot your teeth. And even if you choose your sublingual carefully (like the CL 5000mcg, which doesn't have any acids or sugars), it's still a pain to keep those pills in your mouth all the time.

 

[Pipeliner9]

Hello everyone,

I have been following many of these threads for a couple years now and have found much useful information. Thank you.

With that said, I am in a very difficult place, health-wise. I have chronic Lyme and am very tired and sick right now (taking flagyl and Doxy). I was using oral mb12 for a boost with decent effect but decided to get the ad/mb transdermal oils. I used the full dose and basically lost my mind to rage and anxiety for a few days. Now I am extremely sensitive to even low dose oral b 12, methylfolate, b1, b2. I am at a loss and don't really know what to do. Any advice would be helpful.

 

[garyfritz]

Did you ask Greg (the b12oils guy) if he had any idea what happened? He doesn't know everything, but he understands b12 metabolism better than most....

 

[SuckSmoothie]

Update on my methylation protocol

I've been taking 45mg of mb12 and 18mg of mfolate and feeling wonderful for the past few weeks. I started addressing a few B-vit deficiencies from my nutreval tests by supplementing B1 in the form of sulbiutamine and Biotin, both of which showed up low on my tests.

I've been taking them both at night and waking up feeling very refreshed, but oddly enough I think B1 has increased my need for B12. B1 is a b12 antagonist, and lately I haven't been feeling the nice neurological effects of B12. I decided to pop an extra 5mg of b12 this morning and I'm feeling fantastic again!

I have several MTR and MTRR SNP's, can this explain my voracious need for b12?