Active B12 Protocol Basics

[Kathevans]

can you do this protocal without LCF?

Some people have trouble tolerating it, and I admit I haven't gotten that far myself. I've been working on B-12 and B2 and using the B-12 Oils. So, sorry, I can't address this. Apparently, if you get enough B12, possibly Adeno B12 and B2 into yourself your body is capable of making its own Carnitine. But I don't know how that works. I believe it's discussed somewhere in the thread on Transdermal B12 Oils: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-vans-view-thoughts.43539/page-10#post-729408

Good luck with your approach!

 

[ahmo]

@douglasmich You can try ALCAR or other form. I tried 3 types of carnitine, which did nothing. LCF made a big difference.

 

[douglasmich]

Ok. I think im going to try the deadlock quartet.

My main concern is MTRR + MTR +/+ which less then 1% have. Add mercury on top and im never getting better.

I don't know where to start. Should i chelate mercury first or support methylation first or fix the gut first or do all at the same time?

 

[Valentijn]

My main concern is MTRR + MTR +/+ which less then 1% have. Add mercury on top and im never getting better.

I seriously doubt they are that rare. Which SNPs are you referring to specifically?

 

[douglasmich]

MTRR A66G +/+
MTR A2756G +/+

 

[Valentijn]

MTRR A66G +/+

The prevalence of the problematic allele is 47.3%. Approximately 22.4% of people around the world are homozygous for it. While it does result in a 70% reduction in MTRR enzyme activity, it's not causing disease nor preventing recovery from anything. At most, it's slowing down methylation and raising homocysteine. In either case, supplementing B12 should completely resolve that issue.

MTR A2756G +/+

This also isn't super uncommon. With a 20.9% allele prevalence rate, approximately 4.4% of people are +/+ for it (up to 16% for some ethnic populations). It's a mild upregulation, and despite what Yasko says, it's beneficial.

 

[douglasmich]

I stand corrected. That's for the evidence based heads up.

Would 1mg b12 be sufficient? Or should i need minimum 5mg as advised on various sites.

Regards

 

[CCC]

I stand corrected. That's for the evidence based heads up.

Would 1mg b12 be sufficient? Or should i need minimum 5mg as advised on various sites.

Regards

Start low and go slow.

My sister couldn't handle more than 250mcg to begin with. Some people can handle even less. It;s not a race. Consider yourself blessed if you don't need much.

@caledonia has a good document about all this - I think you can click on the link in her signature if you're logged in.

 

[douglasmich]

Im on 1-2mg a dsy so far. Tolerating well. Its quite potent i feel abit "manic" but its tolerable.

I ordered LCF, adeb12. Going to try the full protocal. Hopefully i don't need megadose folate. Im hoping i get results on

-5000mcg country life b12
-2000mcg Source naturals dibencozide
-1600mcg metafolin
-500mg Source naturals L - carnitine.

& co factors etc

Will start low and titrate

 

[SuckSmoothie]

Hi all, I don't mean to hijack but seeing how this thread is so massive and active I thought I'd drop my q here instead of making my own post.

When you first started mb12 and folate, how did you titrate it? I'm starting Freddd's protocol with all my ancillary supps in place except ab12 and LCF, I'm a little scared to start those.

Started two days ago at 125mcg mb12 and 200mcg folate, now up to 250mcg mb12 and 400mcg folate. Is this too fast?

I have MTRR and MTR snps, no MTHFR snps

I've also seen some people who megadose folate at 40mg when they first start methylation treatment, what's up with that??

 

[douglasmich]

OK guys. My adeb12 and others arrived today.

So far ive been on 800mcg folate and 2mg b12. Feel nothing from it really. This is funny because a year ago i tried this and i had INSANE potassium loss that took weeks to fill up with supplemenets. Then i crashed and recovered, and these vitamins did nothing.

Today i took 1mg adenob12. WOW 20mins later it my potassium dropped like crazy. Literally dropping by the minute. My upper back got very tight and sore, i was craving the hell of out of potassim i got my juicer out and started juicing like a madman. It was totally insaitiable.

Is this what fredddd calls ::healing:: ? Did my reactions stop before because i was missing adeb12?

After loading up on potassium i have alot of energy.

 

[SuckSmoothie]

OK guys. My adeb12 and others arrived today.

So far ive been on 800mcg folate and 2mg b12. Feel nothing from it really. This is funny because a year ago i tried this and i had INSANE potassium loss that took weeks to fill up with supplemenets. Then i crashed and recovered, and these vitamins did nothing.

Today i took 1mg adenob12. WOW 20mins later it my potassium dropped like crazy. Literally dropping by the minute. My upper back got very tight and sore, i was craving the hell of out of potassim i got my juicer out and started juicing like a madman. It was totally insaitiable.

Is this what fredddd calls ::healing:: ? Did my reactions stop before because i was missing adeb12?

After loading up on potassium i have alot of energy.

FWIW adenob12 made me hella wired but I mega dosed it when I first received it (I took six 3mg pills hoping for the nice effect of megadosed folate...) to ramp up the healing process, but only left me feeling overstimulated. Idk if overstimulation is part of the healing process, but I've read this being a side effect of ATP startup. I suggest doing what Freddd does and taking it only once a week, and working your way up to a large dose.

 

[u&iraok]

OK guys. My adeb12 and others arrived today.

So far ive been on 800mcg folate and 2mg b12. Feel nothing from it really. This is funny because a year ago i tried this and i had INSANE potassium loss that took weeks to fill up with supplemenets. Then i crashed and recovered, and these vitamins did nothing.

Today i took 1mg adenob12. WOW 20mins later it my potassium dropped like crazy. Literally dropping by the minute. My upper back got very tight and sore, i was craving the hell of out of potassim i got my juicer out and started juicing like a madman. It was totally insaitiable.

Is this what fredddd calls ::healing:: ? Did my reactions stop before because i was missing adeb12?

After loading up on potassium i have alot of energy.

I'd like to know that answer, too. I'm thinking that you weren't super low on the methlyl B12 so it will take more of it to get a reaction.

I did Rich's methylation a few years ago and have been taking methyl B12 orally since then (not sublingually, though). It took about 15 mg methyl B12 to get a reaction. And the adeno B12 produced more of a reaction, I guess since I've never taken it before. Never even heard of it!

I had a tight, sore lower back for a few weeks right after starting Freddd's protocol that made me walk a little bent over. It's finally gone away, not sure if it was the potassium, I only took about 300-700 mg a day, though I do eat a fair amount of fruit, being the fruit fanatic that I am and all. (I get anxious if I run out of fruit. Could that be a potassium deficiency masquerading as a love of fruit?)

Do wonder if it's lack of potassium that causes the tight muscles or the B12 or folate.

 

[douglasmich]

I get fruit cravings from low potassium too. Im very in touch with my body now

 

[douglasmich]

OK. Currently stable on this with no benefits.

3mg b12
2mg adenob12
800mcg folate
1/4 capsule Thorne basic b complex 2x a day

No more potassium loss from adenob12. Guess i depleted something else lol.

Im planning to titrate slowly to

5mg b12
2mg adenob12
1600mcg folate

Do you think if i am stable at that point i can add LCF? I cannot really afford megadose b12.

regards

 

[garyfritz]

Do wonder if it's lack of potassium that causes the tight muscles or the B12 or folate.

Low potassium causes my muscles to cramp -- most often my calves, but sometimes my chest or other muscles. A quick hit of potassium (e.g. potassium gluconate powder or potassium chloride powder) will clear it up in a few minutes.

Now what causes the low K, I'm less sure about.

 

[schesche69]

still no explanation why glutathione and its pecursors are supposed to be bad... i think @Fredd that you are wrong about that.. your interpretation of what happened which lead you to conclude it was glutathione , was influenced by some other factor.. is there any medical study you can present that shows glutathione (glutathionylb12) is excreting active b12 ?? please present it or have the courage to refute your position on this one point ..

 

[douglasmich]

Are the b12 oils compatible with this regime?

If so how do the doses convert to equivalent of sublingual?

Cheers

 

[garyfritz]

If so how do the doses convert to equivalent of sublingual?

There's not one easy answer to that. Different sublingual products have different levels of efficacy. The way you administer sublinguals also makes a huge difference. Suck on a sublingual and it's gone in a few minutes, and hardly any soaks in through your skin. I use Country Life 5000mcg sublinguals, which dissolve much too fast under your tongue. But break one into quarters and put 1/4 between lip and gum, and they last a looong time. The longer you have the lozenge in contact with your oral mucosa, the more you can absorb into your bloodstream. (As opposed to having it run down your throat, where it's mostly wasted.)

As for comparison to the oil: when I first started using the B12 oil, I was still putting whole 5000mcg CL's under my tongue. So I wasn't squeezing the maximum benefit out of them. I was taking 25-30mg or more per day, and still not controlling my symptoms. Now I take 2-3 squirts of the adenosyl/methyl oil per day (about 1.3-1.8mg/day methyl, 3.7-5.5mg/day adenosyl, 80% absorbed) and it does a much better job than the sublinguals.

 

[douglasmich]

OKay thats understandable. I was talking to greg trying to decide if i should try his product. THis is what he said to me

"
i attach your related SNPs. Don't worry about +/-, they are "normal".
+/+ to worry about would be
CBS +/+ - it takes sulphur through to the sulphation cycle and if SAM levels get low (which yours probably are), then you will have problems.
GAD +/+ - requires B6, but if your B2 is up it shouldn't really give you problems. Is responsible for making GABA, your inhibitory neurotransmitter.
MAO +/+ is the more common variant, but you need B2 for it as well. It is involved in break-down of neurotransmitters. Normally if you get a Herx, it is to blame, and would be due to low B2.
MTR - multiple, this will cause you more problems because it is the enzyme required for dealing with 5MTHF and B12 and Hcy, so if B12 gets low the enzyme due to multiple +/+ will not work as well. Don't think I have anyone with 4 +/+. Mind you the true effect won't be known in the literature due to its rareity
MTRR +/+. This really becomes a worry if your dairy/B2 consumption drops. It is responsible for "fixing" oxidized Co(II)B12. It is highly dependent upon B2, and it is arguably the reason why many people don't respond to CN-B12 or OH-B12.
PEMT +/+, needs extra SAM. Is responsible for making adrenalin, plus also for making phosphatidyl choline.
TPH2 +/+, this makes brain serotonin, and is highly over-expressed in CFS/FM people. If your MeB12 and/or folate and/or B2 gets low, then your supplies of BH4 drop and then you will have extra trouble making serotonin. Early signs would be being depressed, but also not sleeping soundly.
VDR Bsm +/+. Responsible for binding vitamin D, so generally you need higher levels than +/-.

"

Right now im on

5mg b12
2mg adeb12
1600mcg folate
1/2 capsule thorne basic b complex.

First few days felt so good. Now im back to baseline. Potassium is ok, and no paradox folate issues.

Today i added 125mg L carnitine. No response. Tomorrow i will add 250mg.

I am not sure how to dose the b12. I feel my body REALLY needs it with the MTR, and MTRR mutations. Ive read amy yasko says 5-15mg for this mutation.

I have a month or 2 left of the sublinguial. After i run out i might try the cream. Greg said one pump should be enough... I guess before that, il try 15mg sublinguial. The first time i used 5mg b12 i felt so good. Now it doesnt work anymore

cheers