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Active B12 Protocol Basics

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
I see that you are also TCN2 and have some MTRR++. I do not seem to have an active COMT problem. The one I have is not causing any trouble.

Above I talk about my experience with Fred's protocol. So I think either the COMT++ (and therefore more mag), or the MAO++ (and therefore more B2) need to be in place (possibly); or, yet another option, my MeB12 wasn't being transported into the cells because of the TCN stuff (some lithium, which I only tried once and it gave me indigestion for a day...).

Or maybe it's just gut dysbiosis--and there certainly is some of that.

I'm continuing with the B2 angle right now. My need for Folate seemed to be insatiable, and I was having very uncomfortable neurological symptoms, not to mention horrible sleep.

Fiddling away here, trying to find a bit of comfort and a bit more sleep!
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@Kathevans
I find the B2/B12 theory to be compelling and it certainly could speak to my experience. Somewhere on this site is a post called "A B2 Story" or something to that effect. When I fired up the methylation pathway I ran out twice with some pretty drastic symptoms.

It was a bit of a shock to me because I was taking it. I had gradually stopped peeing " Vit B yellow" and I didn't even know when that happened; it was gradual I guess. I also tested last year with a ferritin level of 9. This is part of the B2 theory as well.

I had to take the folate sublingual but I need a lot less now. I tested positive for antibodies to milk and eggs. I was already off milk for ages but was chowing down 3 eggs a day. When I stopped my eczema disappeared and this coincided with the decreased need for folate. Could be a coincidence as well though.

In my mind, I just think that if eggs could mess up my skin like that, what were they doing to my poor gut?
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
It was a bit of a shock to me because I was taking it. I had gradually stopped peeing " Vit B yellow" and I didn't even know when that happened; it was gradual I guess. I also tested last year with a ferritin level of 9. This is part of the B2 theory as well.

What were the B2 levels you were taking? And now? Is that ferritin level in the range that goes up to 250?? Apparently, according to Dog Person on the b2 I love you thread, B2 is essential for releasing ferritin from the liver. You must have been exhausted!

As to diet, this is tricky, too. I eat two eggs a day, myself, but don't have any skin symptoms from them. I recently added dairy back in in the form of plain yogurt or kefir (wanting to increase dietary potassium) but it makes my mouth symptoms--sore tongue and lining, not thrush or identifiable by doctors, but maybe bacterial) worse. I love eggs. The thought of changing my diet always makes me anxious; I'm afraid I'm going t starve!
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@Kathevans
The only way I know of measuring B2 is by the colour of the urine. This indicates that the body is saturated and that the extra is spilling over into the urine. The second time that I produced symptoms of B2 deficiency I was taking 50 mg a day. This is not supposed to be possible I have been told. In fact, B2 deficiency is almost unheard of in the Western World.

It is possible though if you can't absorb it. Yes, the ferritin should be much higher and especially in a guy. The last time I checked it was over 50.

With the B2, I had to rock back and forth in the chair to get the momentum to stand. I was only able to walk 300 feet without resting. Who knows what the ferritin was back then? The level of 9 was last year and I could walk a mile at that time. I can walk as much as I want to now.

My diet is meat, oils, veggies and fruit. No soy, milk, eggs, corn, raw tomatoes, and a few others. I am carefully reintroducing rice into my diet after taking a break for 10 months. I want eggs back too. We'll see. I wonder if these Ig-G reactions can resolve over time.

I feel a lot better though on my current diet. I am continuing with the Humaworm and in a week will start making coconut kefir.
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
I wonder if these Ig-G reactions can resolve over time.
They absolutely can; I've seen it happen even in myself.

It sounds as if you're on an upward trajectory. Keep that momentum going.

I've actually stopped both B12 and folate while I'm very slowly beginning to build up my B2 stores. I could never satisfy my body's demand for folate and had very uncomfortable folate deficiency symptoms. Once I feel as if I'm beginning to balance out on the B2, I'll add back some B12 first, I think. Or possibly some B6, as I read a post by rich Vank in the 'B2 I love you' thread that they work in tandem. They, along with FAD, are both involved as cofactors in the folate cycle, which is to say, necessary.

I think I could just never build up any B2 stores as long as I was pushing the folate.

We shall see...
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@Kathevans
I couldn't get folate into me either. I was taking 9 caps a day and nada. I was reading about others on this site who were taking 20 and quite frankly, I can't afford that. I have taken over 50 pills a day since 2007. I don't even want to know how much I have spent.

Knowing that I didn't absorb Vit D or B2 well made me think that folate was the same. I started to open the caps and put it into my buccal pouch and the difference was night and day. I do not measure or restrict. I take whatever my body wants to take. When I had pronounced brain-fog it would decrease by 50% within a few minutes of taking a dose.

I don't get fog so much anymore but when I do, folate is the answer. My goal for 2016 is to be able to take it orally.

I need a lot less now than I did and I don't know what that means. I take around 1000 mcg some days compared to 3000-4000 mcg a day from 2013-2015. Any attempt to back off from 2 mB12 injections daily have been unsuccessful so far.
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
I've actually stopped both B12 and folate while I'm very slowly beginning to build up my B2 stores. I could never satisfy my body's demand for folate and had very uncomfortable folate deficiency symptoms.

All that stuff I posted above? Well, forget it! Because I felt mind-wild on the Folate over 1600mcg, I decided to back up and try the B2 (because I'd tested low on that, too, of course!). Lower and lower I went, but wait! I also decided that I needed to get on the AdoB12, without which, Dr. Greg, the B12 Oils guy said, I would never get well.

Since February 19th I've taken a bit of AdoB12 13 (unlucky? lucky?) times, usually at a dose of 1/4 of a Seeking Health 3000mcg sublingual tablet, so about 750 mcg. It certainly gave me a lift, increased my stamina so I kept on chugging through the day. Initially it made me sleep better; later, not so much. One time I made a note to self not to take it two days in a row, which I soon disregarded (O' how little respect I seem to have for my own opinions!). On February 29th AND March 1st I took 1/2 AdoB12, and on the night of March 1st I noted a symptom I hadn't had in a while that I associated with a folate deficiency. It happened to be what I call a 'tight face' and that, after visiting my myo-facial/cranio-sacral therapist, seems to be nothing more than a tightening of more neck muscles. Since my trapezius was already tight, and I guess the folate need hasn't been fully quenched, more muscles just keep tightening up.

Anyway, it still took me a while to make an absolute definite connection, but that did occur by March 16th, when I noted on my Excell chart: STAY AWAY FROM THIS TILL B2 IS UP! I ought to have said, 'till Folate is up'! Because at this point, that seems to be the real connection. Maybe.

Interestingly, I was telling myself this same story as early as last December. I posted here about the AdoB12/Folate connection: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/adenosyl-b12-driver-of-folate-needs.41685/

I seem to need to keep proving my theories to myself; or keep testing myself; or keep punishing myself! I've got to take a serious look at all this! I certainly suffer for my foibles.

The upshot? Well, still not totally clear about the B2 and Folate level issues, which comes first this chicken or that egg? But having gone off the Folate and B12 for about a week to try to address the B2 first, I can say that THAT isn't the answer.

I went form needing a sleep crutch of valium or Ambien about three times a week to needing something every night, until the day I decided to add in AdoB12 (you might ask what I was thinking...), got the Tight Face, took a Valium and felt absolutely HORRIBLE and slept only 2 hours. If that. Oy.

I went running back to the folate, suffered a bit as the first 200mcg and the second went into my bloodstream (took 1,000mcg of MeB12 with each dose to assist in its arrival in the cells, and slept as close to like a baby as I have in the last year. Over 7 hours, not including time awake of only 1 1/2 hours. No drugs.

What have I learned?

That folate is a rock-bottom must for my body. And obviously the B12 that for me and my snps must precede it. Without these I am in a host of pain and ridiculously lacking the neurotransmitters needed for sleep. And until I can tolerate more folate, I ought to stay away from AdoB12, because it depletes my folate stores. So, go ahead, work with the B2, but be cautious.

And @stridor I was just diagnosed with EBV (of course) as well as HHV-6 and mycoplasm. I was heartened by your long thread on these issues, that you felt much better after being treated and, possibly, could tolerate the methyl-donors better (though I don't think you have COMT, right?). Yet the antibiotics that helped also did some damage. Maybe more than some. My alterna-doc has recommended monolaurin by Ecological Formulas at doses increasing from 600mg 3x/day with meals. I hope I can tolerate it as I've read here of some that can't. But maybe it will help my gut as well as the viruses.

Who knows. Obviously, more to come as the mystery unfolds. At this point I hesitate to state very much with certainty, as I seem to contradict myself as soon as I do!!

Heads up to @Athene* and @Johnmac and @snowman who have been participating in other related conversations. And to @LynnJ whom I'll get back to when I next have a moment!

Thanks to all my guides here. You are mightily appreciated!
 
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Athene*

Senior Member
Messages
386
Keep going @Kathevans. You'll get there :) I need 23K folate per day, but it's helping so much, I just love it. I would even increase it for a while, if I hit more folate-insufficiency symptoms, as the healing revs up. So much is healing now - even old skin issues.

Then as healing slows down, I hope to go down in folate dose in about 9 months/a year or so, like others have done, but for now I'd happily take up to 30K (couldn't afford any more!). Deplin is 15K per tablet (prescribed brand of mfolate) and people with depression take 45K, prescribed. So I feel safe taking high doses for as long as I need to. I am going by symptoms.

I was jumping out of my skin at low and medium-sized doses but when I got to the high doses it was like a tranquilliser. Such a strange (and happy) experience given that I was actually afraid of mfolate and struggling to take even 800mcg, then within a week I got up to 10K and so on...I just went for it.

I know you have trouble with the big doses. I don't know as much as you re COMT etc, but let's say for talk's sake, if the gene is just there in your test results, and not being expressed, would that mean you could try the higher folate doses for faster healing i.e. just keep pushing through? If that's a daft question, feel free to ignore! But I've seen on other forums where people are taking methylcobalamin, for example, and doing really well, even though their gene data would suggest they take hydroxocobalamin - that's just one example of gene data not playing out as expected...
 

stridor

Senior Member
Messages
873
Location
Powassan, Ontario
@Kathevans
I have a saying and that is, "there is only one thing worse than feeling this sick and that is feeling this sick and not knowing what is wrong." The discovery of the stealth infections is a big step. You will need to do what I am doing now at some point in the future and that is pursue parasites.

If our immune system lets one group of critters set up house we can have no confidence that it kept the door closed to parasites.
My situation could have been improved if I had taken the kefir with the antibiotics. Stupidly, I took some probiotics which contributed to the dysbiosis. That is because I don't have a colon. So, some of the problems that I ran into will be unique to me. You are going to feel a lot better.

And I don't have any significant COMT issues.. I have 3 ++ but they are not the ones that people generally have problems with.
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
My husband reminded me last night that there was one other contributor to my issues of the last week or so and that is the B12 Transdermal Oils. I'd been trialing it occasionally, never even two days in a row, when for some unknown reason--perhaps simply that it is so much less hassle than sticking those little tablets up under your cheek--I began to use it daily. Every day I had those tight neck and face fascia symptoms. And felt weird.

When my husband pointed out that we had no idea what sort of absorption I have with the oils and that I need a 4:1 or 5:1 ratio of B12 to Folate, I instantly took 1/2 MeB12 and felt better within a half hour. I had few enough symptoms to fall asleep, but was awake again 2 1/2 hours later feeling worse. This time I took 2 halves of an MeB12 and put both up by my gums and by 6 a.m. was back asleep till 10 this morning.

I know that @garyfritz needs at least 2 to 3 squirts a day of these oils, and it seems clear that I need at least 2. For the moment I'm staying with the Enzymatic Therapies tabs that I know and trust. I'll try to post something about this on the Transdermal Oils thread.

@stridor I recall you've also had your amalgam fillings removed (after a horrific mercury story from your childhood!). Did you go to a special dentist to have this done, or simply a regular one who might have used a 'dam' as he/she worked in your mouth? I have only two small amalgam fillings now as a lot of my back teeth are capped. I'm thinking of having at least one of them fixed this year...
 
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Messages
8
Location
Columbia, MD
Sorry to seemingly have checked out of our conversation. It IS very helpful and I appreciate it! :) I wound up in the hospital after all on May 8th. Acute pericarditis and atrial fibrillation concurrent with an undifferentiated autoimmune attack (thus the profound pain I was suffereing). What's worse, it all (including EKG) looked like a heart attack in progress, so I got an emergency helicopter ride and all. Ugh. Motion sickness...

Anyway, I'm back on the VERY long road to recovery--- AGAIN --- re-dosed with prednisone and now colchicine and plaquenil --- all stuff I never wanted to be on. Btw, magnesium can conflict in some way with Plaquenil, so I'm not sure how best to manage my very problematic COMT++ situation.

Meanwhile, I get what you're saying about the B2 being a key (apparently along with B6?) that works in concert with the B12 and folate. The problem is, Lynch says pretty clearly that if one has unresolved inflammation (my CRP was 44.2 where "normal" is no higher than 4.9), then the active Bs will simply make it worse.

I REALLY can't handle any worse right now, ya know?? It's like you said, Kath: it's sure not for lack of trying like CRAZY. Sometimes, in fact, I'm pretty sure I might be trying TOO hard, but at the same time, I'm scared to put a supplement in my mouth for fear I'll wind up psychotic or hurting or sick. You know the drill.
 
Messages
8
Location
Columbia, MD
Kathevans, I noticed you describe something you call "tight face." I found this amazing, because I experience what I have named "distressed face." Distressed face accompanies severe anxiety and agitation. My whole body gets drawn up into an excitotoxic mess and I wander about looking like I'm freezing cold. I'll bet my distressed face is the same as your tight face and for the same or very similar reasons.

I'm taking my Bs again at relatively low doses. I absolutely cannot exacerbate the inflammation, but I've GOT to heal, and my body won't without proper support for it's impaired pathways. We'll see how it goes.
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
Kathevans, I noticed you describe something you call "tight face." I found this amazing, because I experience what I have named "distressed face." Distressed face accompanies severe anxiety and agitation.

I'm trying to deal with this slowly, but have gone through a couple of rough weeks, as I'm sure you can imagine. I notice from your signature that you are MAO++. This has a lot to do with B2 levels.

When I tried to get some clarity about what was going on by going off my basic methyl donors, the MeB12 and Folate, as well as my already low-dose Seeking Health B-Minus Complex (1/4 tablet w/ breakfast and dinner), I did not do well. My sleep decreased to almost nothing and within a week I was totally miserable and in pain everywhere. I couldn't get back onto these absolutely necessary supports fast enough. Now I am following my first hypothesis, that it is the B2 that I need most. Because B2 is used in so many of our folate and other cycles, with this particular MAO++ snp we may may need much more of it.

I have found this to be true for me. I'm actually starting to increase my amounts for the third time in about 10 months. Now I seem to have found a relatively solid base of support with 1/4 of the B-Minus 2x a day, about 4,000mcg, that is 2,000 2x/day, each time with 400mcg of Folate. Understand that I initially worked up my dosages to much higher levels--over 6 months--and was only feeling a bit wired and knew that it wasn't quite right for me.

The 'tight face', as I call it, didn't begin to occur on a regular basis until I began to push AdoB12. And then it became chronic, something that occurred every day. Very unpleasant. I haven't taken AdoB12 for a couple of weeks now.

The connection as I understand it, is that AdoB12 is one more thing that calls on folate to work, or to heal, which in turn calls on B2.

What I've discovered by keeping the Folate relatively low, is that, as long as I take about 10mg of B2/riboflavin/FMN each time I take the Folate, the tight face doesn't occur. I even began to take a small amount of B2 with my dinner-about 4 mg. Now what I've discovered is that possibly after I eat a salad, which delivers a lot of folic acid to my body, and which in my case requires folate to metabolize it and in turn the B2, I need more B2 than the 4 mg. The tight face seems to be returning at bedtime. Last night I tried to get by with a bit of valium, but woke after only 2 hours of sleep with the symptom. I sucked on 1/4 FMN for another 4.5 mg of B2 and was back asleep around 4 a.m.

B2 does do something to your circadian rhythms, though, so I was awake again at 6. Breakfast then, the B-minus and 1/4 FMN, folate and B12 and I was back to sleep from 9-11. I suppose it sounds pretty awful as far as sleep goes, but, frankly, I feel pretty good right now, 3 o'clock after lunch and my nose just beginning to drip (my body letting me know it wants the next dose of folate!)

Tonight I'll take about 10 mg of B2 with my dinner and see if that improves the pre-bed tight face and helps me to sleep less disturbed through the night.

I don't know, of course, but I believe this is helping. Little by little.

I wound up in the hospital after all on May 8th. Acute pericarditis and atrial fibrillation concurrent with an undifferentiated autoimmune attack (thus the profound pain I was suffereing).

But I'm ahead of myself as far as your serious issues now are concerned. This sounds horrible. Traumatic and worrisome, as anything to do with our hearts is. I hope you are on the mend and under a good doctor's care.

That said, let me share a bit more of my personal experience with you.

About three years ago I began to have irregular heartbeat issues that included pvcs (premature ventricular contractions), atrial-fibrillation and other irregularities. Oddly, these issues occurred almost exclusively at night and seemed to be positional. In addition to going on a beta-blocker, and going through Gupta's Amygdala retraining--which, btw, had NOTHING TO DO WITH the problem!--I had to sleep almost sitting up for at least a portion of the night, sometimes the entire night. This went on for about a year and a half. You can imagine...

As this symptom began to decrease, I noticed that my pain levels were getting much worse. By then I had found Phoenix Rising and was overwhelmed by all the information here, just reading and taking it in. But I began to have suspicions. The major one being that the B-Complex I was taking was causing a 'Paradoxical Folate Deficiency', which is to say, I was taking enough folate, but because of my genetics, my body couldn't process it without more B12. And that folate with nowhere to go was causing all sorts of neurological problems.

It took me about 6 months--sounds strange, I know, but my mood levels of depression and pain were so intense I kept going back to lower and lower amounts of this B-complex, until one night after taking 3/4 capsule I had a reaction that nearly sent me to the ER--shaking, teeth chattering, feeling as if everything in my body was banging up against itself. My note to self at the time: NEVER TAKE THIS AGAIN!

So, I found Seeking Health's B-Minus and began to add the B12 first. It shouldn't have been too much of a surprise that the first dose (about 1/16 of an Enzymatic MeB12) of this supplement that my body needed so badly sent my heart into atrial fibrillation for 2 hours. No one in the ER believed this could be it, but we know better here.

I never had that reaction again, though, and slowly began to titrate it up, as well as the Folate. Now the issue seems to be to take enough B2 to help the folate to cycle and not cause this tightening of my facial muscles (and neck and trapezius, etc).

As to your mention of COMT++, I have that as well, and Magnesium Citrate powder, mixed into lemon juice with my meals was one of the earliest things I did--even before arriving at this site. I titrated up with this, as with everything, beginning with magnesium drops made by BodyBio. This way you can go a drop at a time. I took it for my heart, of course, and found it helped. Now I take 400-600mg a day, no problem. My cardiologist said that many of her heart patients always carried magnesium with them to use just in case. I see that there may be some drug interaction of magnesium with the prescription. Ask your doctor. Who knows...

Slow and steady to you. I send along my very best wishes for your healing. Finding your path is the trick. This site has been so very helpful to me.

Kathleen
 
Messages
8
Location
Columbia, MD
Thank you again, Kathevans, for such a thoughtful and thorough reply. Though I've been studying this site for quite some time, I can relate to what you said. I'm in overwhelmed mode right now --- there are just so many variables. It seems literally impossible to find a stable path. There are definite clues along the way --- I know, for example, that I made significant gains with pretty high doses of folate and B12 (along with B2 and B6), taurine, NAC (which I know Fred doesn't really like) but I'd have to admit those gains came with significant, even scary psychological struggles. Right now I know my levels of folate and B12 are too low, but I'm already depressed, angry, anxious. I'm afraid to put another thing in my mouth --- literally.

I can't say that "distressed face" has been about adcbl for me. It seems like it happens when I get too many methyl donors flying around my system --- too much Mcbl and MTHF. What's probably happening is that those (along with the supporting Bs) are out of balance OR they've simply overwhelmed my COMT/MAO pathways with too much methyl. For example, Thorne's MethylGuard Plus has a fair amount of methyl donors in it. ONE capsule can be a help (where 3 is the recommended dosage), but even 1 capsule a day starts to become too much. Maybe I'll try again to manually cut the dose. Does it feel to you like the COMT/MAO piece creates an unsolvable conundrum? 'Cause that's how it's feeling to me (with all due respect to the fantastic work of folks like Fred, Rich, Yasko, Lynch, etc.). That's what I mean when I say I might be trying too hard. Maybe I just need to go much slower.

Also, you mentioned the "positional" nature of your heart issues. I'm going through that right now. I can't lay down at night; I wind up taking nitro 2 and 3 times every night for severe chest pain. What's worse, I can't tell if the chest pain is a result of the pericarditis (which IS very real and IS causing me a lot of pain) or esophageal spasms. My heart is staying in rhythm for now --- I'm keeping up with my electrolytes including postassium, but again (and as you know only too well), the permutations of combining all the various nutrients which are deficient in my body are endless AND I'm afraid to be in the kind of pain I was in without the prednisone. I am getting in the magnesium, though.

I'm working with a naturopath out of Richmond who is well trained in epigenetics. Her perspective seems excellent, but there's just so much contradictory information out there. She has me on a whole-food, vegetable-based (and very high quality) B complex, but I'm pretty sure it's creating a folinic acid folate deficiency (your B-minus idea is sounding like a REAL good idea). She points out that my methylation issues shouldn't be too bad, since I'm 677+-, but she seems unable to explain why relatively high doses --- 2 mgs a day for a month, then 10 mgs a day for a month --- of L-5-MTHF ALL BY ITSELF did so much for me before I hit the wall (my intro to MTHF is another story :) She's really trying to dial back my outta control nervous system, and I really appreciate that, but emotional gains seem to come at the expense of physical gains. We can't seem to get both working at once at any reasonable level, so I yo-yo back and forth physically and emotionally. Additionally, she doesn't think that all the pain I'm going through systemically and with the pericarditis is really related to the genetic pathway impairments, but that seems too compartmentalized for me. My sense is that those impaired pathways are a HUGE part of the overall problem --- ie, the CFS, the UCTD, the pericarditis, the mental/emotional problems, etc. all arise out of decades of bio-chem pathway impairments.

O.K. Guess I'm mostly just venting right now (for which I apologize). My chest is hurting as I type this. Time to take a little break :) I'm trying to develop some supportive relationships here at Pheonix Rising, so I DEEPLY appreciate your replies, Kath. As I've said before, I've been studying the site for quite awhile. Seemed time to join in and try to belong, but my hospital stay interrupted that process. I know I'm not the only one who goes through profound loneliness...
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
Hi there @repguy It sounds like a very rough time you're having, for which I'm sorry.

Right up front I'm going to say that your naturopath saying that you don't have many methylation problems may be misguided. My own alternadoc said something similar nearly a year ago, but when it got down to it, his advice didn't begin to lead me out of the woods. I needed more support in some areas, and perhaps much gentler nudging in others. The jury, frankly, is still out!

In any case, the only thing any of us can offer, besides our empathy, is our own experience, so I will say what jumps out at me in what you have to say... 2 mgs a day of Folate, let alone 10 would be more than I could take at least at this point. You don't mention how much MeB12 you're taking, but a cursory look at your snps, as well as your saying you're only heterozygous for MTHFR makes me wonder if you've got a high enough ratio of B12 to Folate.

I've been having issues with this as I trial the B12 oils (as a way of sucking on fewer things during the day). The problem is that I'm also addressing the 'tight face' muscles with B2 (the MAO++ cofactors; and meeting with a lot of success) so other uncomfortable head issues--I can only explain it as a weird discomfort, unsettled quality of not being myself--which I realized yesterday have to do with not having enough B12 in me to cover the Folate I'm taking. Yesterday afternoon the extra small dose of B2 I'd taken (1/4 Source Naturals FMN) didn't entirely alleviate my neurological symptoms, but the extra 1mg Enzymatic up under my gums actually made me feel relaxed and in my own skin, so to speak, and carried me to bedtime when the situation recurred. Just to make sure it wasn't the B2, I took another quarter, but when that didn't resolve anything (at this point my body responds very quickly to small amounts of these supps...as unbelievable as it sounds), I discovered that a quarter of an Enzymatic did.

So today I'm going back to 3-4mg of B12 to only 400 Folate ( which I lowered again two days ago to get a clearer reading of the B2 issues), and will stay away from the oil...maybe next time I'll do two squirts in a day...though that feels as if it might be too much!

My own experience has shown me that higher doses of many of the Bs can seem to be fine over long periods of time and then, if they aren't right for your body, your snps, you're going to go into what Fred calls methyl trap, and it's like grinding the gears of a car--and if you've ever driven a stick, you know how that feels!

It's better to be in control at lower speeds before you step on the gas. I'm thinkin'...

The last month or two for me have been a gradual backing off/down, in order to get a clearer picture of what is actually going on. In terms of methyls, your system seems to be in over drive, and I'm a little suspicious of your naturopath's knowledge of genetics. In the end only your body has the answers... I actually ended up spending $60-70 for Ben Lynch's genetic chart and whenever I begin to wonder what's going on, I unroll it and stare at it! The cofactors alongside the genes have helped to guide me in the supplements I take.

I've certainly learned that these Bs are powerful in our bodies and not to be taken lightly. It was very possibly a lifetime of Folic acid taken without the extra B12 which set me on a path which led to pain and neurological issues. Doctors and practitioners are well-meaning, but we're outliers, and our reactions are not going to fall in the middle of the bell curve.

My brother-in-law,a great spiritual,teacher for me, always says when you're in the middle of the vortex and spinning wildly, just stop. And I'm not talking about your serious meds now, but some of these supps. Since my own cardiologist says that magnesium is heart-helpful, that is where I began for COMT++, though I recall you need to talk to your doc about that possible interaction you mentioned.

People do move forward with these snps, but you may just have to go a bit slower...

You don't want to be working at cross purposes. Be gentle with yourself, these methyl donors can give you a bumpy ride.
 
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Messages
8
Location
Columbia, MD
Empathy and personal experience. Yes, those are so helpful because they show us that we're not alone, and every single person here has gone through the head games of life losses due to illness that the mainstream can't begin to quantify or understand.

I hear what you say about my naturopath. When she talks about methylation not being such a big problem, I ask her if she doesn't mean that FOLATE shouldn't be such a big problem, because the MTR, MTRR (and FUT2) pieces alone would indicate a severe problem with functional B12 deficiency. And still, having said that, there's the way my body responds to MTHF. It doesn't quite add up. As you said, the jury's still out, but ironically, her take on things is essentially your conclusion: "go a bit slower..."

Right now I'm working with this version of my protocol since so many issues are clouding the view.

1) Fulvonic Minerals, 350x concentration
2) Magnesium
3) NAC
4) Homeopathic adrenal drops
5) Mitochondrial Restore
6) B vitamins as tolerated (including B6, P5P, B2, B12's - adeno and methyl, folate - no more than 400 mcgs/day). Also, I'm currently using B12 at around 2 mgs/day, mostly adeno which works well for me.
7) L-Theanine with inositol - helps with calm, focus and sleep
8) Lithium (Lynch's 5 mg --- helps smooth mood stuff a LOT and of course helps B12 transport).

Also, the integrative doc helping me with the autoimmune/cardiological issues has me on a bunch of herbal adaptogens to strengthen the HPA axis. Then there are the pharmaceuticals, but they seem unavoidable at present.

As you've noted above in so many words, it's very hard to ride out difficult symptoms when the response to the B's is so profound and so immediate. But it seems like slower is better for the COMT/MAO crowd, I'd have to agree :) Are you finding a better "place" having slowly backed down?
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
Are you finding a better "place" having slowly backed down?

Actually, yes, though you probably know how hard it is to replicate one good day with another! For the moment I have stopped both Folate and MeB12 (still mag/zinc/D and other supports), as there was no doubt some weird neurological thing going on. Also stopped the B-Minus B complex. Taking only B2 seems to resolve the tight face issue for the moment. But I'm just trying to pay attention and lay low. We'll see how the next few days go. I'm very tempted to add MeB12 back in at the very least. For the pain, you know. But I think I'll wait at least another day!

Why is it so hard to not tamper??!

(Interesting about the Lithium; I have it in my cupboard, but have only tried it once and at the time thought it gave me quite a case of indigestion. I ought to re-try...)
 
Messages
8
Location
Columbia, MD
Oops, yeah I forgot I've got calcium and D working, too. Critical with all the predinisone. Yes, I really like lithium. Yasko prefers even less than Lynch's 5 mgs, so I'm not sure what you have, but if it's Lynch's 5 mg cap, maybe try to cut it in half, I don't know. Also, I don't take mine on an empty stomach.

You may have helped me a WHOLE bunch, Kath. Though I'm 3 weeks into a very aggressive treatment for my pericarditis, I was still having chest pains so severe at night that I couldn't lie down and was using up to 3 nitro pills a night. When you mentioned about the B2 for MAO, I realized I wasn't using mine very consistently (figuring it's in the B complex which, of course, I had backed off of), so I started taking it maybe 4 days ago. Meanwhile, since sublingual nitro tabs do help the chest pains, I also thought about my "nitro" polymorphisms (all the NOS3's). Without enough nitrous oxide in our systems, we have less capacity for smooth muscle relaxation (tension in which can cause cardio chest pains, esophageal spasms, etc., which is why sublingual nitro tabs give relief). I looked up NOS3 on my personalized report from the naturopath and, sure enough, the main support for those impaired pathways is B2/FAD/FMN!

In fact, over the last 2 nights, I just suddenly had virtually no chest pains and I could lay down --- AND SLEEP!! --- so THANK YOU! :)

Very cool (and maybe it's even the real, actual reason I'm having this improvement, who knows? Hah! :)

As to your ostensibly rhetorical question, for me it's this simple: I know --- I JUST KNOW --- that in my vast arsenal/collection of supplements is THE COMBINATION that will make me well. It's what I call a crazy-maker. The other reason of course is that it's just no fun to feel really lousy, so when something's not working, it's pretty darn hard to sit still. That's why I said before that I think we mostly try TOO hard, huh? ;)
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
Meanwhile, since sublingual nitro tabs do help the chest pains, I also thought about my "nitro" polymorphisms (all the NOS3's). Without enough nitrous oxide in our systems, we have less capacity for smooth muscle relaxation (tension in which can cause cardio chest pains, esophageal spasms, etc., which is why sublingual nitro tabs give relief). I looked up NOS3 on my personalized report from the naturopath and, sure enough, the main support for those impaired pathways is B2/FAD/FMN!

Wow. Note I've got many of those same snps, though heterozygous rather than homozygous. (And occasional esophogeal and rectal spasms as well) So thank YOU! Even if I've said it before, it bears repeating: I'm not the science person (that would be my brother and father). I'm the writer. So, this stuff just doesn't stick. I seem to have to come to it again and again. But in truth, I hadn't much looked into the NOS stuff.

Interestingly, there was an alternative doctor in NYC I saw for a couple of years who was a real doctor, but then moved into the area of bioresonance, a little weird, but I went with it because it brought me some relief. One of the things he had me do for my heart issues was alternate nostril breathing, or nadhi shodhana. By basically dragging the air over the soft palate at the back of your mouth, you increase the nitric oxide in your body. It's a great relaxation technique, and at the time I came across some scientific articles for its efficacy as well, not to mention a good friend who's a cardiologist and said it was good as well. Many nights I'd spend long periods of time just doing this alternate nostril breathing. Unfortunately, I've gotten away from this, probably not to my benefit.

I'm glad you've had positive results. Long may they continue! Keep it up. (And thanks again.)
 

douglasmich

Senior Member
Messages
311
can you do this protocal without LCF?

I have l carnitine tarate and i cannot afford anything else.

Im about to buy b12, adeb12 and metafolinj

thanks