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Active B12 Protocol Basics

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, May 8, 2011.

  1. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    I'd like to find an alternative to Enzy, too...it's got an awful lot of sugar in it. That's why I went from it to CL. Keeping that much of it in your mouth for a long period of time can't be good for oral health, and recent experience tells me that good oral health is as important as supplements if you want to feel good. I'm still waiting to see on that, but I think it matters a lot more than most of us think.

    Probably you can overcome the sugar problem if you just brush and floss your teeth a couple times per day, rinse with some mouthwash a few times. Just throwing it out there, because Enzy does have a lot of sugar. I wish they'd take it out.
  2. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Agree 100%. I don't like having my mouth full of sugar for hours every day.

    Plus I'm not sure the Enzy works well for me anyway. I tried it with a small dose on Sunday, and I had a terrible night. Headache, jitters, etc. Some of the jitters may have been because of the small dose. Today I'm experimenting with 10mg, which is half the dose I take with CL. Freddd says Enzy is absorbed 2-5x better than CL, so 10mg ought to be plenty. But unless it works magic for me, I'm not going to keep using it.

    I've been realizing this B12 supplementation is likely to be a life-long thing. It's not just "take these for a while and you're all better." Which means the delivery mechanism becomes pretty crucial. I can't hold a mouthful of sugar pills for 8-10 hours a day for the rest of my life. I'm also not excited about the idea of daily injections forever. I may get some of the Holistic Health Mega Drops with 1mg per drop, and try 10 drops a day intranasally. The ingredients sound fairly benign: glycerine, trehalose (a sweetener similar to glucose), citric acid (hm), potassium sorbate, rosemary extract. 10mg/day would cost about a dollar a day.
  3. LynnJ

    LynnJ

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    I haven't heard too many good things about B12 liquid/drops. Have you heard differently? I did want to try some originally.
  4. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Hip started a thread about "alternative" delivery methods, and in this post he said intranasal Mega Drops worked very well.

    The citric acid may sting a bit, but other than that the ingredients look good. Some people have talked about crushing tablets and snorting them, or dissolving them in water and applying with a neti pot. But I figure all the binders, colors, etc that they put into tablets might not be good to put in your nose.
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    That sugar is a problem for me, especially since I tend to have a dry mouth for various reasons. That aggravates the problems. Oral health is important as one grows older poor oral functioning can be deadly.
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Garyfritz,

    B12 tablets have no colors added. It is highly colored itself. Different varieties have slightly different shades. Variation in pill color comes from particle size and whether dissolved in the base or is in little crystal chunks.
  7. Moshi

    Moshi

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    Hi there Protocol-Professionals!
    I need help, as usual ;-)
    Soon to celebrate my first ActiveB/Methylation Protocol anniversary. Things HAVE improved, for example having less auto-immune symptoms....but fatigue is a huge problem (moderate ME)
    I struggle (still) to understand the protocol, all the theories, and to adjust it for my individual needs, I suspect that I am doing major misstakes, that I have been missing/misunderstood vital information.
    I am for one beginning to suspect that my active folate/ MeCbl ratio is way off....
    I usually feel pretty fine in the early morning, I have 1mg MeFolate before breakfast, another 1,5 mg MeFolate shortly after. I still feel fine. Then I add in 3mg AdlCbl+1mg MeCbl sublingually (inder upper lip) and BAM! I am out. Immediate brain-fog and massive fatigue....why, why, why?? I keep adding sublingual MeCbl (Enzy) during up until mid-afternoon, about 4-5 mg in total, plus another dose of 1,2 mg MeFolate around lunchtime, if I'm lucky, brain-fog/fatigue lifts a little by late pm/evening, but not always. It seems to me that the B12 is triggering my almost day-long brain-fog....and Protocol Pros may go "Ehhh, yeah. Dohh!" Perhaps this is the way it's supposed to be....but keep hoping that the correct "tweaking" of my protocol will give me just a LITTLE more energy....and I am guessing I still need way more MeCbl, perhaps double, triple my current daily dosage? I am SO confused.
    I am MTHFR 1298 ++, MTRR++, MTR+ etc. I take all cofactors and essentials.
    Input would be invaluable!
    And b.t.w, I cannot handle the fructose in the Enzys either, I am trying Seeking Health MeCbl+AdCbl (4+1mg) lozenges soon.
  8. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    I am NO expert. But you may want to try the Country Life 5000mg mB12, if you can get them there. (Only the 5000mg. They have other sizes but they include folic acid or cyanoB12.) No fructose. The only sweetener is xylitol, which I discovered is actually beneficial for teeth! I didn't care for the Enzy and much prefer the CL.

    I take 20mg/day of the CL, plus 4mg/day adB12 and 4mg/day of MeFolate.
    Sherpa likes this.
  9. Moshi

    Moshi

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    Garyfritz- Thanks!!
    I will research if I will be able to get hold of CL MeCbl sublingual 5000mcg, may be cheaper than the Seeking Health version? Considering snorting some Holistic Heal MeCbl MegaDrops as well :)
    And thanks for sharing your daily amounts with me! Confirms my suspicion that I am way too low on the MeCbl, doubling my daily intake will be easier using 5000mcg tablets....
    We have similar SNP's, how are you doing right now with your current protocol/dosing? Improved?
  10. mgd1972

    mgd1972

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    Moshi, have you tried taking just mb12 and no adb12 for a few days? I have figured out it is the adb12 that makes me feel spaced out. Maybe it is healing, but I'm taking a break from it. I also upped my zinc and it seems to be helping my skin issues.
  11. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    @mgd1972, I've found that mB12 alone won't work for me any more, at least not very well. It did last year -- 1mg or less of Readisorb mB12 per day totally put my symptoms into 100% remission for 6 months -- but for whatever reason it seems to keep getting worse. (I would sure like to understand why, if anybody knows!)

    @Moshi, I'm doing OK. I started experimenting with injected mB12. I was at 1mg/day and that didn't seem to be enough, but that was also when I realized I really need the adB12 and methyl folate. For some logistical reasons I've gone off the injected for the last week and am back on the CL. By this weekend I will go back on the injection, starting with 1mg and possibly increasing. I don't know how much of the CL I actually absorb, but I'm fairly sure I don't actually need 20mg of fully-absorbed mB12. If it's injected I should be able to get by with much less, though 1mg is probably not enough.

    I haven't seen miraculous results with injected mB12 like some folks have. Unless I see great results with larger doses, I will probably drop the injected and just stick with the CL. Injections are a pain (literally and figuratively) and if CL works at least as well, I see no reason to hassle with the injections.

    My main symptoms are restless legs syndrome, full-body agitation/jitters like I just drank 6 double espressos, and night-time twitching/thrashing/agitation that destroys my sleep patterns. 20mg CL, 4mg adB12, and 4mg methyl folate keeps that under control pretty well. Sometimes I still wake in the night and need another CL to go back to sleep, so I may need to increase my dose a bit. I definitely don't have enough to keep good serum B12 levels 24x7. My symptoms tend to be worst in the afternoon/evening/night so I take the B12 in the afternoon/evening. It generally wears off during the night or by the morning, but by morning it's not a problem. I had hoped that injected B12 might keep the levels high 24 hours a day, but so far I haven't achieved that. Maybe I should take even more CL and do it all day long, I'm not sure. Still experimenting.
    Sherpa likes this.
  12. Moshi

    Moshi

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    Garyfritz, sorry to hear you're doing slightly worse after a long period of improvement...keep experimenting I'm sure you'll get back to where you were before. I will now ask my doctor (GP) to prescribe MeCbl injections for me, we'll see if she agrees to that. Got my Seeking Health MeCbl 4000mcg lozenges this morning and started sucking on them immediately, my third lozenge has just dissolved now, about 3,5 h later, that means I've digested 12mg MeCbl today, WAY more than usual. At first I felt fine, clearer, more awake, but now I'm fatigued and brain-fogged again (mixed with some slight "jitters" a bit shaky) I have ordered the CL 5000mcg MeCbl lozenges as well as per ypur advise and will compare and contrast those with Seeking Health, that will also allow me try the advice of mgd 1972 above, (and I believe also Freddd), to NOT take adCbl every day.
    Re: your nighttime problems, RL etc, have you tried massaging your legs with magnesium gel? It has stopped RL immediately for me when I've experienced it. I have had sleeping problems/insomnia for my entire life but sleep better than I ever did now using my own "nighty night cocktail" , phospatidyl serine complex, lithium orotate, theanine, GABA, magnesium+zinc and a few drops liquid melatonin under my toungue.
  13. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    Hi @Moshi -- yes, I tried magnesium gels &etc about 6-8 years ago. The only thing I'd found that seemed to help the nighttime problems was calcium & magnesium, and in pursuing that path I found you can't absorb much magnesium orally. (Kind of like B12 but for a different reason!) So I tried gels, epsom salt baths, etc, but it didn't help all that much.

    I'm taking some lithium orotate, but in the morning. Maybe I should take it at night? I am leery of taking melatonin long-term -- it is a brain hormone and my understanding is that you can mess up your natural hormone balance if you take it regularly for a long time. See e.g. http://www.livestrong.com/article/115717-bad-side-effects-melatonin-supplements/

    I take 5HTP, which seems to help me stay asleep during the night, and go back to sleep if I wake up.
  14. Moshi

    Moshi

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    Ok, I will try again to see if I can get some input from someone here....

    I am doing something wrong and I cannot figure out where the problem/s lie - this is how I start my day:

    Around 6:30-7:00 am
    1 carnitAll containing 200mg fumarate+75mg arginate+75mg taurinate.
    1 CoQ10 100mg
    1 L-5-MTHF 1000mcg
    1 NADH 5mg (every other day)
    1 SAM-e 400mg
    Washed down with some applejuice containing ca 3g D-Ribose and 600mg TMG

    I feel fine. I feel almost clear, almost energized. Almost normal.

    At 7:30-8:00 I add -
    B-Complex consisting of:
    Benfotiamine 25mg
    Riboflavin 25mg
    Niacin 50mg
    P-5-P 25mg
    L-5-MTHF 400mcg
    MeCbl 250 mcg
    Biotin 25 mcg (yes, MCG)
    Plus -

    L-5-MTHF 1,200 mcg

    I feel fine. Some days I feel great. I can move. I can think. Then....

    At ca 08:00 am
    I add tablet of sublingual MeCbl containing 4000mcg MeCbl+ 1000mcg AdCbl under my upper lip and then.....

    10 minutes later I am gone. Massive fatigue and brain-fog hit me like a brick, I also get weak and my hands start to shake....I keep adding more MeCbl anyhow and now I am aiming for 16mg of sublingual MeCbl daily, at lunchtime I add another 1,2 mg MeFolate too.

    Why do I get a massive reaction when I add in the MeCbl? (And AdCbl)?? Am I experiencing methyl-trapping? Folate donut hole? Wrong ratios? Wrong amount of other B vits? Wrong combination of co-factors?

    I am not entirely new to using the active B's as I havebeen doing this for almost a year now...however....I feel that my reaction to MeCbl is getting worse and worse....again, I take almost 4 mg MeFolate and 16 mg of MeCbl (+3-4mg AdCbl) daily. And I have absolutely NO energy. Zero. Where should I begin to make changes?

    Suggestions WARMLY welcome!
  15. skwag

    skwag

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    Hi Moshi,

    Have you tried reducing the frequency of the AdB12? Maybe once a week instead of daily. Freddd recently posted a thread about the ratios of the Mb12 and AdB12, where he suggests less frequent AdB12 dosing. I personally saw improvement when I cut back the Adb12 to once a week.

    Hope this helps.

    Edit: I now see this advice has already been given to you upthread. Did you try it? Any effect?
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2014
    ahmo likes this.
  16. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Moshi First, it's my understanding that it's better to take your CoQ w/food, as it's an oily supp. SAMe the same? I'm not taking it so not sure of it's formulation. Also I recently heard an expert, can't remember which, suggest P5P in evening.

    2600 mcg MTHF is what I've added up from your post. But in last par you say 4mg. In either case, you're taking a lot more B12 than folate.

    I'm confused.:confused: Both by the numbers and by your symptoms. Is it only brain fog and weakness? Generally, from my understanding, the methyl deficiency/trapping reactions tend to be skin related. I haven't studied the symptoms lists for some time. There's a Guide in my signature, you can find symptom lists, and links to full lists, there.

    And I haven't yet edited it to include the info @skwag mentions, Fred's recent revision of AdB12. He now suggests once a week large AdB12 dose (50mg), and no MB12 on that day, to help increase absorption of both.

    Sorry I can't be of more help. cheers:balloons:
  17. Lee Ann

    Lee Ann

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    Hello,

    Once again I'm trying to sort all this out w/no brain power...so sorry for the questions...
    Looked @ fredd's protocol and it says

    Country Life Methyl B12.....I couldn't find this except 5000 mcg
    and why Enzymatic Therapy B12 and the Country Life Methyl B12??

    Thanks for your help and patience :)
  18. garyfritz

    garyfritz Senior Member

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    @Lee Ann, I've used the Enzymatic Therapy and the CL.

    Freddd likes the Enzy but I didn't care for it. Small dosages, took forever to dissolve. I had a mouthful of sugary pills all day long.

    I like the CL 5000mcg methylcobalamin. Probably don't get great absorption because they dissolve fairly fast, but with 5000mcg you've got plenty to work with. The CL 5000mcg has no folic acid, no citric acid, no sugars. Its only sweetener is xylitol, which is actually *beneficial* for dental health. So I feel comfortable using that.

    If you want a smaller dose, you could split the 5000mcg. CL also has a 1000mcg size. But check any CL B12 carefully. They have several B12 products with cyanocobalamin and/or folic acid.
  19. Moshi

    Moshi

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    Ahmo - thanks for taking your time, I appreciate it.
    You have combined a great document, and I mamaged to read it today, most of it I have already read before, as I have now spent over a year reading on this forum...and still....I feel so clueless! It's obvious that Freddd is somewhat of a genius, however, I find him hard to comprehend....God knows I'm trying :) I appreciate that these things are extremely complicated and that it's hard to simplify...
    So I'm still wrecking by brain trying to figure out where I've gone wrong....a few questions that spring to mind...
    * I will try to do AdCbl seperately (every 3rd or 4th day? Once/week?) will try as soon as new separated supps arrive.
    * is NADH a problem? What is Freddd's view on NADH?
    * I realized a while back that a liver compound supp I was taking contained small amounts of NAC+gluthatione, I had been using it for 1+ month and have discontinued it, did this possibly throw everything off balance (not that I was doing great before...but sure was better) and if so...how long will it take me to repair the damage?
    * As mentioned previously, it is when I start taking my MeCbl+AdCbl that I'm overwhelmed by brain-fog, fatigue, weakness and slight tremours....as of today daily amounts are: MeFolate 4mg, MeCbl 16mg, AdCbl 4mg....where should begin to adjust...increase MeFolate?
    * I will replace SAM-e with Methionine....any opinions Re:that?
    * I will replace the CarnitAll (mixed carnitines) with Carnitine Fumarate only 2x250mg /day.
    * I will use different forms if MeCbl, as nasal spray (CareSupport) sublingal drops (holistic health) and as lozengers (CountryLife), I am aiming for 15-20mg per day....what kind of absorbtion may that yield?
    * The people that use higher amounts of MeCbl, what kind of daily amounts of potassium do they take?

    I appreciate all input, ideas, comments, as usual, thanks!!!
  20. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @Moshi, I too, find Fred hard to comprehend. I've read the same info over and over. That was part of my impetus to compile it, as I haven't digested it enough to effectively answer queries from my own understanding.

    * Freddd suggests once/week AdB12

    * NADH: I don't know. you might search forums 'NADH + Freddd'. I know little about it, only understood recently it's activated niacin (?). If so, that suggests it might slow methylation.

    * small amounts of NAC+gluthatione...well, I guess it's possible it through things off. Fred's comments re the group glutathione experiment suggest some people suffered for a long time afterwards. Don't know if small amounts would be a problem...

    Looking at those ratios, yes, I'd suggest > folate. I was very cautious for way too long. When I finally followed Fred's advice, and began increasing 100-200mcg every day or 2, I really started getting better. For me the most obvious were CNS symptoms. I grew calm, insomnia stopped...

    Don't know.

    * Yes, LCF might be a good switch.

    Sorry, I'd have to refer to Fred's notes...

    RE Potassium...I'm taking about 1 gm (1000mg) AM/PM. This is w/ a stable Mfolate intake. When I raised folate, I frequently needed extra K+ in the short term. From what I recall (having NO recall:lol:) this was pretty much in line w/ what others reported.

    Also, when I raised folate, I occasionally got symptoms of 'over-methylation' or histamine response: itchy, weepy eyes, irritable. Whenever this occurred, I took a 1mg B12 and it stopped almost immediately. I never did the alternate suggestion, using B3 to slow it down.


    *BTW, I don't know where this might fit in, but you might be like me, and Fred: I eventually found that my vegetable intake was blocking Mfolate. Veg folate is folinic form. When I quit my green veg intake, I was able to reduce Mfolate from 25mg to 15mg, w/ no deficiency symptoms. However, BEWARE: it threw me into galloping detox! I"d been very involved in ongoing detox protocol, and this push to my methylation, once it was unblocked, created a response it took all my wits to manage.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2014

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