Choline on the Brain? A Guide to Choline in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/the-brain-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-mecfs/choline-on-the-brain-a-guide-to-choline-in-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-by-cort-johnson-aug-2005
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Acid-Base disturbances, low bicarbonate?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by PinkPanda, Dec 17, 2017.

  1. PinkPanda

    PinkPanda Senior Member

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    Hello!

    I've been looking into the issue of bicarbonate and carbon dioxide levels lately.

    I noticed that the citric acid cycle can produce carbon dioxide/CO2 (picture here), which can be converted to bicarbonate (HCO3−):
    H2O + CO2<--> HCO3− + H+

    I find interesting that HCO3−/bicarbonate is a cofactor in important processes like gluconeogenesis, ammonium excretion by the urea cycle, AMP and GMP synthesis in the purine synthesis (AMP can be converted to ATP, which is an important energy unit. GMP can be converted to GTP, which is needed for G protein function).

    So I think low citric acid cycle function might reduce CO2 production, which might then lower HCO3−/bicarbonate. Lactic Acidosis for example can be associated with low bicarbonate and low total CO2 in the blood (reference).

    Bicarbonate is a base and is part of the bicarbonate buffer system. I also think that the levels of bicarbonate and carbon dioxide might be influenced by levels of acids like lactic acid or bases like ammonium, because then the buffer should shift in one direction.
    Does anyone have any knowledge on this?

    Is there any proof, any study on people with ME/CFS producing more lactate? Or is that only part of some theories?
    Does anyone have any experience or tests done on low carbon dioxide, low bicarbonate or disturbances in the acid-base balance?
    If anyone has any thoughts or experiences to share, please share :)
     
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  2. gregh286

    gregh286 Senior Member

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    Londonderry, Northern Ireland.
    KDM does lactate test.
    I was X2 over top of normal range. Definetly lactic, you can feel it in your legs.
    does it not come from anaerobic energy production?
     
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  3. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    Rocky Mountains
    At one point I went into acidosis early in the course of my disease. The doctors were scratching their heads as I got sicker and sicker. I finally started taking bicarb (eventually potassium bicarb) and got better. I still have to take it at times.

    I have learned that for me, the feeling that I need betaine to digest meat means that I need bicarb. I think my body will not produce acid for digestion when I am low on bicarb, as a protective mechanism.

    If I have enough bicarb, I don't need betaine. It is counter intuitive, but after being so sick with acidosis, it became very clear that I must have adequate buffer intake.
     
  4. GreenBlanket

    GreenBlanket

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    If you haven't come across it already, you might learn about the Bohr effect. The Bohr effect describes the relationship between pH and the oxygenation of body tissues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_effect Oxygenation is one of the many things studied in CFS.
    Also Cort Johnson said that at a 2014 CFS conference, a young researcher was studying the relationship between pH and CFS. I know nothing more about it than that, ...just that a researcher considered it worthy of research.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
    seunderwood, echobravo and PinkPanda like this.
  5. PinkPanda

    PinkPanda Senior Member

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    Thankyou for your replies, they are very helpful!

    Yeah, right, it does. The topic is so complicated, I got a bit confused.

    @BadBadBear How do you take the bicarbonate now? As baking soda?

    Thankyou, I didn't know about that.
     
  6. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

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  7. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Indeed
     
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  8. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    Rocky Mountains
    @Gondwanaland - ooh, good find. Sounds like I could try increased biotin along with bicarb?

    @PinkPanda - I take potassium bicarb. I need extra potassium, and do regular bloodwork to track my levels. So potassium bicarb kills two birds with one stone for me.
     
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