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Acetylcholine Imbalance -- Sensitivity to Meds!!!

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by joejack102, Dec 27, 2017.

  1. joejack102

    joejack102 Senior Member

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    Still unsolved!

    Quick summary:


    • For the last ~20 years, I've had "some disorder," that has similarities to Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) and other similar syndromes (like Dysautonomia).
    • I used to be EXTREMELY sensitive to ALL HERBS & MEDS. They would have 1,000x's exaggerated effects.
    • ASHWAGANDHA: Used to be a temporary cure for my extreme sensitivities (for 24 hours).
    • CHAMOMILE: Used to do the exact opposite of Ashwagandha; it would INCREASE my sensitives (for 24 hours).
    • AFTER CHOLINE: After I took CDP Choline & Choline Bitartrate extensively, Meds & all herbs no longer work, and I have long-term critical and alarming levels of fatigue & brain fog.
    Can somebody help me reverse whatever the Choline supplements did to me?


    The following are POSSIBLY relevant:
    Acetylcholine Mediated Vasodilatation in the Microcirculation of Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
    http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=10459


    My possible Hypothesis:
    [​IMG]


    Also, Ashwagnahda is known to "increase the capacity fo muscarinic receptors," so this could be relevant to what is happening as well.


    Any/all help is much appreciated!!!!!!
     
    Wayne likes this.
  2. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    I have rarely come across this, where a supplement has made any ME/CFS patient permanently worse. ME/CFS patients can react strongly to certain supplements or drugs, and this can then temporarily make them worse or trigger PEM, but they usually recover after some days or weeks.

    Are you sure there is not some other factor that could have caused the worsening of your symptoms, such as acquiring a new infection that just happened to occur when you took these supplements? ME/CFS is linked to catching infections. Or a toxic exposure that happened to occur at the same time?


    If you still think it is due to these supplements, the only thing I can suggest is try to find all the biological effects of these supplements you took, and try to figure out whether one of those effects might be the culprit. For example, CDP choline increases dopamine receptor densities, so you could investigate this. Choline can affect methylation, so that's something to look into. Some the effects of these supplements can be found at examine.com.

    But usually such actions are reversible, so that when you stop the supplements, you would normally go back to where you were. It's hard to imagine how a supplement would lead to permanent changes. But it's something you could try to investigate.

    This sort of biochemical investigation can take years, though, because it takes a while to learn the necessary biological pathways.



    With your level of fatigue and brain fog, where would you say you are on the ME/CFS scale of mild, moderate and severe?

    Apart from these fatigue and brain fog issues, wouldn't it be an advantage to lose your previous over-sensitivities to supplements and drugs? Doesn't that just make you normal?
     
    joejack102 likes this.
  3. joejack102

    joejack102 Senior Member

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    @Hip
    , This chart may help.

    [​IMG]
    I need to get back "in balance." There is something in normal people that allows them to bounce back, but my body doesn't.


    You are probably spot on about the receptor densities, but I cannot find a way to do this. How might I reverse this? Any ideas? I know that Ashwaganha (which before Choline used to decrease my sensitivities for 24 hours) is known to increase muscarinic receptor capacities.

    In regards to it being "permanent," this is still a mystery as well. I spent over 10 years on the "before Choline" side of that chart above, and several years now on the "after Choline" side of the chart.

    I have not been well enough to return to my job in over 4 months now.
     
  4. PinkPanda

    PinkPanda Senior Member

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    I've also experienced some sustainably worsened symptoms from supplements.

    Have you tried taking nothing for a few weeks and just getting your nutrients naturally from foods? That might shift your balance to normal again, if you have trouble finding helpful supplements.
     
  5. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    If you have developed ME/CFS, is not easy to "un-trigger" this. But what you can do is start looking at the various ME/CFS treatments that are known to help. Usually ME/CFS specialist doctors will test you for the range of viral infections known to be linked to ME/CFS, and if you have an active infection with one or more of these, they may recommend antiviral treatment.



    This is just a random example of one of the dozens (if not hundreds) of effects that any given supplement or drug can have in the body. That's why it would take a long time to identify and work through all the different effects that the supplements you took have.

    I could give more examples: choline helps build cell membranes, so choline supplementation would have had an effect in that area. Choline is used to make the neurotransmitter acetylcholine, so this supplement would have had a boosting effect on the cholinergic (acetylcholine) system. There are lots of possibilities.

    Interestingly enough, organophosphate pesticides are linked to ME/CFS, and these boost the cholinergic system. So there might be some mileage in investigating acetylcholine.

    The ashwagandha (Withania somnifera) herb you mentioned has numerous effects: it raises catalase, it inhibits NF-κB (which can in turn have anti-inflammatory effects).



    When you say you say you are extremely sensitive herbs and medicines, and that these have exaggerated effects of 1000s of times, are you not exaggerating yourself?

    For example, if are you genuinely 1000 times more sensitive to such substances, then that would mean just a teaspoon of beer (5 ml) would make you very drunk, because 5 ml x 1000 = 5 liters of beer.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2017
  6. joejack102

    joejack102 Senior Member

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    I was only sensitive to "medicinally active" substances for some reason. For example, Ginseng would have an extremely exaggerated effects after the smallest exposure, yet calcium and magnesium would behave normally.

    I was out of balance to begin with, starting at age 13 when I was super-sensitive to herbs & meds. The Choline supplements just took me to the other end of the spectrum. I'm just trying to reverse what I did to get somewhere in the middle. I obviously don't expect to somehow cure ME/CFS or whatever disorder I have in the process.

    Well, the interesting thing is that something ties together all the various effects on my sensitivities that these various supplements had. I wish we could figure out this puzzle.
    [​IMG]
    I mean, there has to be one "aspect" to these ingredients that would explain why they had the effects that they did on my sensitivities.
     
  7. joejack102

    joejack102 Senior Member

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    [​IMG]
    I spent age 13 to age 23 (10 years) on the extreme left side of this graph. And I spent age 23 to 31 (8 years) on the extreme right side of this graph. My body doesn't "rebalance" in this aspect on it's own for some reason.
     
    PinkPanda likes this.
  8. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Have you ever considered mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), which involves people being sensitive to supplements and medications? MCAS can be symptomatically similar to allergy.

    Often when people develop ME/CFS, there can be a change in status of existing allergies (either new allergies may appear, or existing ones may disappear). So possibly this applies to MCAS too.

    For example, I used to be gluten intolerant before a viral infection triggered my ME/CFS, but since developing ME/CFS this intolerance completely disappeared.

    Thus if your sensitivity to herbs and medications were due to MCAS, the development of ME/CFS might explain why your MCAS disappeared.
     
  9. junkcrap50

    junkcrap50 Senior Member

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    I would suggest researching and learning more about Mast Cells and MCAS as Hip suggested. That is my first, immediate thought when seeing extreme sensitivities. See Dr. Afrin's book, Never Bet Against Occam: Mast Cell Activation Disease and the Modern Epidemics of Chronic Illness and Medical Complexity.
     
  10. joejack102

    joejack102 Senior Member

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    It seems that CFS, POTS, Vagus Nerve disorders, and Mast Cell disorders all seem to intersect. The question is which came first: The chicken or the egg? I used to have very strong seasonal allergies, that magically disappeared when I used the Choline supplements in 2009. I have never had an allergic reaction to a medication or supplement though. You could be spot on as to the root cause, but I still can't figure out how to reverse what I did?
     
  11. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Perhaps the disappearance of that allergy that indicates that choline for some reason significantly modulates your immune system, which could provide a clue as to how choline and CDP choline appear to have triggered you ME/CFS or ME/CFS-like symptoms.

    It is not uncommon for ME/CFS to appear after vaccination, which is again an event which modulates the immune system. ME/CFS may be caused by some aberration of the immune response.
     
  12. arboretum

    arboretum

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    You simply cannot tell how any of this stuff works. Not even the very best biomedical experts at top universities can figure out how these things work, and in the case of a condition like, CFS, where nobody really has any proper idea how it works. it's simply impossible. So many of the facts and mechanisms on these matter are very poorly understood, most of what is thought might be the case usually turns out to be wrong, and if we have any idea of how things work, our understanding is generally pretty shallow. It is possible that you, like many people with CFS, just got worse, and you are misattributing it to the supplements.
     
  13. joejack102

    joejack102 Senior Member

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    This is inaccurate, because I didn't "get worse." I went from 100x sensitivity to herbs/meds to the complete opposite. Now nothing works. Very specific set of circumstances.
     
  14. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    When you say no medications work, what exactly do you mean? I am sure that if you took a blood pressure drug, it would still lower your blood pressure. Or if you took an antibiotic, it would still fight a bacterial infection.

    Presumably you mean certain drugs you have tried no longer have an effect. It would better to list these drugs that appeared to have lost their effect, and explain what effects they had before and lost afterwards, rather than saying "now nothing works".
     
  15. kangaSue

    kangaSue Senior Member

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    Brisbane, Australia
  16. percyval577

    percyval577 Knight

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    Ik ga to bed
    I experienced that phaenomenon already before I got quit severe ill. All my life I had eventually to take care for what I am going to do. Later I experienced to be every four months even somehow a different person, that would refind himself in one or two years.

    It has to do, I am convinced, with the NO-system: To much nitric oxide coming from the immunesystem induces the nerves to "learn", and now you brain wants stupidly to learn so much.

    What me helps: - Not eating for a day. - Drinking quit some beer on sunday morning with best most hops (important! alcohol for itself will not do, or might even be bad) in. After drinking beer I won´t take up much calcium for about 20 hours.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  17. percyval577

    percyval577 Knight

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    Ik ga to bed
    I too can not take up much choline. After eating eggs on two days, and even the next couple of months!, I will get worse, I will get more rush, my head is pounding, my sleep is going to vanish. It takes weeks to get back.

    You could ask for anticholinergics, but I don´t know about them right now, as I am not able to prescribe them myself and I do other things, if I do at all. But I would recognize them as the best possibility to lower my symptoms.
    I tested transdermal alkaloids from a thereby very poisening plant (hyoscyamus) - And for five times it worked very well. The alkaloids were coming within olive oil, and here they needed to be put behind the ears, I put them also at the temples, feeling the alkaloids in the eyes for some seconds. They are normaly used for serious pain somewhere in the body, putting quit a bit on the skin. Internally some people try to get high from them, but it´s told to become easlily a horror trip, you can even die, and with a lot of uncomfort, if you take to much.

    I still use the alkaloids time to time, and get cleared up a little bit, going to be able to concentrate, being calm. I use them not to often as the effect would vanish, I was afraid, maybe they will do anyway at the long run?
    They are in lower dosis componets of e.g. tabaco and tomatos as well.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018

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