Acetyl L- Glutathione, ATP, Baking Soda, Sam-e & Catalase = No PEM after exercise

[SDSue]

Take one hour before or two hours after meals. NEVER take with meals.

I am much more compliant when I understand the reason for doing things (otherwise I forget whether to take with or without food, etc).

Why does one never take this with meals? Thanks!

 

[Tammy]

@SDSue.............for digestion purposes........you want enough acidity to do the job ..........the baking soda would counteract this.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Why does one never take this with meals?

Because it supresses stomach acidity

 

[Hip]

I am much more compliant when I understand the reason for doing things (otherwise I forget whether to take with or without food, etc).

Why does one never take this with meals? Thanks!

It's just because sodium bicarbonate will tend to neutralize your stomach acid, so you will have more difficulty in digesting your food if you take sodium bicarbonate with a meal. It's best taken away from meals.


As mentioned earlier in this thread, one viable alternative to sodium bicarbonate which can be taken with meals is potassium citrate, or sodium citrate (trisodium citrate). You can buy either of these cheaply as a bulk powder on eBay.

Potassium citrate and sodium citrate are both alkalizing agents, and they likely neutralize lactate from physical exercise almost as effectively as sodium bicarbonate (this study indicates sodium citrate was almost as good as sodium bicarbonate in improving athletic running performance).

 

[Sherlock]

Why does one never take this with meals?

I would say the opposite to what others have said. The problem of taking bicarb with meals is that the bicarb gets neutralized by stomach acid. So it's as if you never took the bicarb - except that the exit valve from the stomach will close up until proper acidity is re-established, thereby delaying stomach emptying. (That assumes the person has no problem in secreting lots of stomach acid.)

Btw, as soon as the acidified stomach contents leave the stomach, the small intestine secretes bicarbonate to neutralize the contents.

I take bicarb immediately after exercise - sometimes before or during.

 

[MeSci]

This is the info I collated when I was considering starting sodium bicarbonate:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DR601241/DSECTION=proper-use

Dosing

The dose of this medicine will be different for different patients. Follow your doctor's orders or the directions on the label. The following information includes only the average doses of this medicine. If your dose is different, do not change it unless your doctor tells you to do so.

The amount of medicine that you take depends on the strength of the medicine. Also, the number of doses you take each day, the time allowed between doses, and the length of time you take the medicine depend on the medical problem for which you are using the medicine.

For sodium bicarbonate powder:

To relieve heartburn or sour stomach:

Adults and teenagers—One-half teaspoonful in a glass of water every two hours. Your doctor may change the dose if needed.

Children—Dose must be determined by your doctor.

To make the urine more alkaline (less acidic):

Adults and teenagers—One teaspoonful in a glass of water every four hours. Your doctor may change the dose if needed. However, the dose is usually not more than 4 teaspoonfuls a day.

from http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/meds/a682001.html

If you are using sodium bicarbonate as an antacid, it should be taken 1 to 2 hours after meals, with a full glass of water. If you are using sodium bicarbonate for another reason, it may be taken with or without food. Do not take sodium bicarbonate on an overly full stomach.

Do not use sodium bicarbonate for longer than 2 weeks unless your doctor tells you to.

tell your doctor and pharmacist what prescription and nonprescription medications you are taking, especially other antacids, aspirin or aspirin-like medicines, benzodiazepines, flecainide (Tambocor), iron, ketoconazole (Nizoral), lithium (Eskalith, Lithobid), methenamine (Hiprex, Urex), methotrexate, quinidine, sulfa-containing antibiotics, tetracycline (Sumycin), or vitamins. Take sodium bicarbonate at least 2 hours apart from other medicines.

tell your doctor if you have or have ever had high blood pressure, congestive heart failure, or kidney disease or if you have recently had bleeding in your stomach or intestine.

Sodium bicarbonate may cause side effects. Tell your doctor if any of these symptoms are severe or do not go away:

• increased thirst
• stomach cramps
• gas

If you have any of the following symptoms, stop taking sodium bicarbonate and call your doctor immediately:

• severe headache
• nausea
• vomit that resembles coffee grounds
• loss of appetite
• irritability
• weakness
• frequent urge to urinate
• slow breathing
• swelling of feet or lower legs
• bloody, black, or tarry stools
• blood in your urine

From abstract of Effects of Various Sodium Bicarbonate Loading Protocols on the Time-Dependent Extracellular Buffering Profile, Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research:

September 2010 - Volume 24 - Issue 9 - pp 2551-2557

Siegler, Jason C1; Midgley, Adrian W1; Polman, Remco C J2; Lever, Robert1

Although much research has investigated the types of exercise that are enhanced with sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) ingestion, to date, there has been limited research on the dosage and timing of ingestion that optimizes the associated ergogenic effects. This study investigated the effects of various NaHCO3 loading protocols on the time-dependent blood-buffering profile. Eight male volunteers (age, 22.4 ± 5.7 yr; height, 179.8 ± 9.6 cm, body mass, 76.3 ± 14.1 kg) completed Part A, measures of alkalosis throughout 120 minutes after ingestion of various single NaHCO3 dosages (0.3 g·kg−1, 0.2 g·kg−1, 0.1 g·kg−1, and placebo); and Part B, similar profiles after alternative NaHCO3 loading protocols (single morning dosage [SMD], single evening dosage [SED], and dosages ingested on 3 consecutive evenings [CED]). Results from Part A are as follows. Blood buffering in the 0.1 g·kg−1 condition was significantly lower than the 0.2 g·kg−1 and 0.3 g·kg−1 conditions (p < 0.002), but there was no significant differences between the 0.2 g·kg−1 and 0.3 g·kg−1 conditions (p = 0.34). Although the blood buffering was relatively constant in the 0.1 and 0.2 conditions, it was significantly higher at 60 minutes than at 100 minutes and 120 minutes in the 0.3 g·kg−1 condition (p < 0.05). Results from Part B are as follows. Blood buffering for SMD was significantly higher than for SED and CED (p < 0.05). Blood buffering in the SMD condition was significantly lower at 17:00 hours than at 11:00 hours (p = 0.007). The single 0.2 and 0.3 g·kg−1 NaHCO3 dosages appeared to be the most effective for increasing blood-buffering capacity. The 0.2 g·kg−1 dosage is best ingested 40 to 50 minutes before exercise and the 0.3 g·kg−1 dosage 60 minutes before exercise.

The abstract is at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20040895

More info at http://preprod.easacademy.org/curre...-on-the-time-dependent-extracellular-bufferin:

This article did not address actual performance effects of these increases in pH and it would have been interesting to see how blood pH would have been affected during exercise as opposed to rest. However, there are several studies demonstrating efficacy of bicarbonate loading for performance under certain exercise conditions. The single 0.2-g/kg and 0.3-g/kg NaHCO3 dosages appeared to be the most effective for increasing blood-buffering capacity. There was no significant difference between the 0.2-g/kg and 0.3-g/kg NaHCO3 dosages. The 0.2-g/kg dosage is best ingested 40 to 50 min before exercise and the 0.3-g/kg dosage 60 min before exercise. Because NaHCO3 loading may cause dehydration, it is important to monitor hydration by plasma/urine osmolality or the specific gravity of urine. Single doses exceeding 0.3 g/kg are not recommended because the risk of side effects increases.

Also see paper

Effects of sodium bicarbonate ingestion on swim performance in youth athletes

Adam Zajac, Jaroslaw Cholewa, Stanislaw Poprzecki, Zbigniew Waśkiewicz and Jozef Langfort

Journal of Sports Science and Medicine (2009) 8, 45-50

at http://www.jssm.org/vol8/n1/7/v8n1-7pdf.pdf

I ignore some of it, such as doing what doctors tell me!

Re stomach acid, the amount you need may depend on your diet. Some of us may be prone to gut acidosis.

 

[Hip]

One interesting thing about taking sodium bicarbonate to treat systemic acidosis is that while this alkalizes the body, bicarbonate can have an acidifying effect in the brain tissues, at least in patients with systemic acidosis, according to this study.

However the study authors found that when they used Carbicarb, which is just a mixture of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and sodium carbonate (washing soda), this achieved alkalization of both the body and the brain tissues.

I actually bough some food grade sodium carbonate a while ago, in order to make my own Carbicarb, as I thought that ensuring both the brain and body get alkalized might have greater benefit. But I did not do that much experimentation with Carbicarb. In the light of this thread, I may start using Carbicarb again, comparing it to bicarbonate.



The main problem I get with alkalization is that it makes me feel unpleasantly lightheaded. I understand that becoming lightheaded from alkalizing diets or alkalizing supplements is not uncommon. A while ago I speculated why alkalizing may cause lightheadedness, and my conclusions I quote below:

Alkalizing Diets: Benefits for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Alkalizing diets have long been popular in alternative health circles, and anecdotally, alkalizing diets seem to be of benefit for chronic fatigue syndrome.

See these two webpages, for example, about alkalizing as a treatment for ME/CFS:

Developing an Alkaline Diet (from Dr Teitelbaum's website)
Alkalising to Fight Chronic Fatigue



Alkalizing Diets: Lightheadness Side Effects

I have tried an alkalizing diet (and also tried taking half a teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate each day, which gets the same results) but found that within a day or two, I would become very light headed, and kind of emotionally and mentally feeble and lightweight, which was not a nice feeling.

Because of this lightheadedness side effect, I have never wanted to continue with alkalizing, and by all accounts, you need to do alkalizing for a good 6 months if you are going to get results.


However, I think I know what is causing the lightheadedness side effect that appears during an alkalizing diet, which is explained as follows:

The brain has a mechanism that dilates the cerebral blood vessels when the blood is acidic, and constricts the blood vessels when the blood is alkaline. This mechanism is keyed on the concentration of hydrogen ions in the blood, with the mechanism dilating cerebral blood vessels when it senses the concentration of hydrogen ions (ie, acidity) in the blood increase.

I think what happens in alkalizing diets is that the blood's concentration of hydrogen ions is chronically lowered due to the effects of alkalization, so the brain constricts its blood vessels, and thus the blood supply to the brain is chronically reduced, leading to a feeling of lightheadedness. Cerebral vasoconstriction is a known cause of lightheadedness.

Blood pH is of course maintained by the bicarbonate/carbonic acid buffer, which is affected by bicarbonate and carbonic acid levels.

Carbon dioxide dissolved water turns into carbonic acid, which has an effect on the blood pH and the bicarbonate/carbonic acid buffer balance.

If you actually breathe in pure carbon dioxide gas, it causes a massive amount of cerebral vasodilatation, and thus increased brain blood flow, because carbon dioxide gas when dissolved in blood will increase the concentration of hydrogen ions (acidity) in the blood.

Likewise, if you expel carbon dioxide gas from the blood (which naturally occurs when we take larger breaths), then you decrease the concentration of hydrogen ions in the blood (that is, make the blood more alkaline), and this will in turn reduce brain blood flow.

It is no coincidence that taking lots of rapid deep breaths makes you feel light headed, because rapid deep breaths reduce blood acidity, and thus reduce blood flow to the brain, resulting in lightheadedness.

I really want to try an alkalizing diet, but I need a workaround for this lightheadedness side effect.

I course, I could just breath in some pure carbon dioxide gas every now and then, to get a quick boost to my cerebral vasodilation and brain blood flow, but doing this may defeat the object of alkalizing, as the carbon dioxide may serve to re-acidify my body.



Alkalizing Diets: What's the Science Behind Them?

Nobody actually seems all that clear on the mechanisms that may make alkalizing diets beneficial for health. I only found one scientific study on alkalizing diets:

The Alkaline Diet: Is There Evidence That an Alkaline pH Diet Benefits Health?

This study concludes:

Alkaline diets may result in a number of health benefits as outlined below:

(1) Increased fruits and vegetables in an alkaline diet would improve the K/Na ratio and may benefit bone health, reduce muscle wasting, as well as mitigate other chronic diseases such as hypertension and strokes.

(2) The resultant increase in growth hormone with an alkaline diet may improve many outcomes from cardiovascular health to memory and cognition.

(3) An increase in intracellular magnesium, which is required for the function of many enzyme systems, is another added benefit of the alkaline diet. Available magnesium, which is required to activate vitamin D, would result in numerous added benefits in the vitamin D apocrine/exocrine systems.

(4) Alkalinity may result in added benefit for some chemotherapeutic agents that require a higher pH.

From the evidence outlined above, it would be prudent to consider an alkaline diet to reduce morbidity and mortality of chronic disease that are plaguing our aging population.


Point number (3) above is pertinent to those with ME/CFS, as low intracellular magnesium (and low intracellular potassium) is often found in this disease.

 

[Gondwanaland]

The main problem I get with alkalization is that it makes me feel unpleasantly lightheaded.

I don't tolerate vegetable juicing because of that. But when I am to acidic (urine pH 4.5-5) a bicarb bath makes my head pleasantly clear.

 

[pemone]

Note that there are three types of SOD (see quote below): which SOD did this panel measure; presumably SOD3?

Fantastic points. I think you are right they measured the extracellular SOD, and for sure they never measured mitochondrial. And it is the mitochondrial variety we should care about the most, because the electron transport chain in the mitochondria is the direct source of most of the free radicals.

 

[pemone]

I don't think it is obvious that potassium bicarbonate would direct itself into cells, just because potassium ion concentrations are higher inside cells, and sodium ion concentrations higher outside cells.

When potassium bicarbonate is dissolved in water (and the blood), it dissociates into potassium ions and bicarbonate ions. In water, these ions roam around independently, so would not carry the bicarbonate ion with them when the ion pumps on the cellular membrane pull these potassium ions into the cell.

This study found that a small percentage of both sodium and potassium bicarbonate did not dissociate in water, but remained as a whole molecule. However, even in this case, I am not sure if the ion pumps are capable of pulling in an entire potassium bicarbonate molecule into the cell.

I'm not trying to get the bicarbonate into my cells. My assumption was that the potassium and bicarb split early on in digestion.

The claim is potassium goes to the cytoplasm inside the cell and is an alkalizing agent in that environment.

I found this study interesting: rubidium chloride in the treatment of major depression.

I don't think we are going to find good research on this topic.

 

[pemone]

One interesting thing about taking sodium bicarbonate to treat systemic acidosis is that while this alkalizes the body, bicarbonate can have an acidifying effect in the brain tissues, according to this study.

However the study authors found that when they used Carbicarb, which is just a mixture of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and sodium carbonate (washing soda), this achieved alkalization of both the body and the brain tissues.

I actually bough some food grade sodium carbonate a while ago, in order to make my own Carbicarb, as I thought that ensuring both the brain and body get alkalized might have greater benefit. But I did not do that much experimentation with Carbicarb. In the light of this thread, I may start using Carbicarb again, and comparing it to bicarbonate.
...
The main problem I get with alkalization is that it makes me feel unpleasantly lightheaded. I understand that becoming lightheaded from alkalizing diets or alkalizing supplements is not uncommon. A while ago I speculated why alkalizing may cause lightheadedness, and my conclusions I quote below:

Is there a safe source for sodium carbonate? I would be afraid of getting that from some low cost producer who sources from China and it ends up having lots of heavy metal contamination. Better to buy something like that in a pharmaceutical grade.

I would love to hear the results of your testing. That's a great find on brain issues. Empirically, when I get the burning sensation in my brain and brain fog, sodium bicarb works. But maybe it is indirect. Maybe it doesn't treat brain directly, but rather prevents some spill over with a time delay from systemic acidosis.

Regarding alkaline diets: don't treat the condition until you have proof of acidosis.

 

[pemone]

I don't tolerate vegetable juicing because of that. But when I am to acidic (urine pH 4.5-5) a bicarb bath makes my head pleasantly clear.

Exactly right...treat the symptom!! Don't over alkalize if that creates any adverse feeling on its own.

 

[pemone]

I am much more compliant when I understand the reason for doing things (otherwise I forget whether to take with or without food, etc).

Why does one never take this with meals? Thanks!

When you eat the body shuts the opening to the intestine, then fills the stomach with acid, to predigest the food. If you send an alkaline agent into that environment, the body just produces more acid to neutralize it.

You want to take the bicarb when the stomach is NOT closed to the intestine. You want as much as possible of it to pass through the stomach acid intact into the small intestine.

 

[pemone]

It's just because sodium bicarbonate will tend to neutralize your stomach acid, so you will have more difficulty in digesting your food if you take sodium bicarbonate with a meal. It's best taken away from meals.


As mentioned earlier in this thread, one viable alternative to sodium bicarbonate which can be taken with meals is potassium citrate, or sodium citrate (trisodium citrate). You can buy either of these cheaply as a bulk powder on eBay.

Potassium citrate and sodium citrate are both alkalizing agents, and they likely neutralize lactate from physical exercise almost as effectively as sodium bicarbonate (this study indicates sodium citrate was almost as good as sodium bicarbonate in improving athletic running performance).

I have tried both. You are right these are deep tissue alkalizing agents. But they don't instantly destroy acidity in blood, and nothing seems to do this job quickly like bicarb.

 

[Hip]

The claim is potassium goes to the cytoplasm inside the cell and is an alkalizing agent in that environment.

Potassium, sodium, calcium, magnesium or phosphorus do not have any ability to alkalize, as far as I am aware. An alkali or base is a chemical which will accept protons (H+), and an acid is a chemical which will donate protons.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Potassium, sodium, calcium, magnesium

It might be due to my poor chemistry knowledge, but I am unaware of acid-forming properties of these elements

 

[pemone]

Potassium, sodium, calcium, magnesium or phosphorus do not have any ability to alkalize, as far as I am aware. An alkali or base is a chemical which will accept protons (H+), and an acid is a chemical which will donate protons.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17658124

My chemist friend is telling me that potassium in an ionic form is alkali, by definition. And that is the form you find potassium in food or potassium bicarb. Potassium chloride would NOT be alkaline.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I think some fundamental information will be more helpful here than studies:

What are electrolytes?

Electrolytes and Acid-Base Balance

 

[Hip]

@pone
That study refers to potassium citrate, which has an alkalizing action.

But I believe if you put sodium chloride (ordinary salt), or potassium chloride, into water, this will be neutral at pH 7. There is a discussion on the pH of sodium chloride on this page.

 

[pemone]

@pone
That study refers to potassium citrate, which has an alkalizing action.

But I believe if you put sodium chloride (ordinary salt), or potassium chloride, into water, this will be neutral at pH 7. There is a discussion on the pH of sodium chloride on this page.

Potassium citrate is produced by adding potassium bicarbonate or potassium carbonate to citric acid.

Again, ionic potassium is alkalizing. Both potassium citrate and potassium bicarb would be ionic forms, and as I said potassium chloride would introduce an acid influence. So if you want the alkalinity do NOT take potassium chloride. I'm not a chemist, but I did call one I trusted and he assured me that ionic potassium would be alkalizing, and he did say "by definition". If someone who has better chemistry knowledge than I do wants to extrapolate that and correct my errors, great.

I also noticed the first line on the wikipedia page for potassium carbonate says "Potassium carbonate (K2CO3) is a white salt, soluble in water (insoluble in ethanol[2]), which forms a strongly alkaline solution."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_carbonate