1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Join the National PR Campaign for ME: Power to the Patient (P2tP)
Have you had enough of all the neglect and abuse of ME/CFS patients? Gabby Klein says now is the time for a National PR Campaign for ME/CFS to impress a change. Join the Patient Revolution to restore power to ME patients ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Acetyl-glutathione anyone?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by hixxy, Feb 12, 2012.

  1. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

    Messages:
    724
    Likes:
    107
    Russell Island, Australia
    Hello,

    I've seen Rich post a fair few times about acetyl-glutathione as a possible alternative to liposomal glutathione, but either no one is trying it, or no one is bothering to post their experiences.

    If anyone has tried it, how did it go?

    I have a lot of trouble tolerating liposomal glutathione (sensitive mouth and esophagus) so a capsule would be much nicer indeed!

    Thanks
     
  2. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

    Messages:
    7,319
    Likes:
    4,675
    australia (brisbane)
    Also interested, as i have never heard of an acetyl version.

    cheers!!!
     
  3. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

    Messages:
    724
    Likes:
    107
    Russell Island, Australia
    Seems like one of us might have to be the one to give this supplement a review?
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,546
    Likes:
    916
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Hixxy,

    Glutathione did genuinely serious damage to my neurology. It can affect quite a few of us that way, we just don't know who at this point. I think a far safer route is to try the active b12 protocol. The glutathione will not heal you. It might make transitory changes. It can cause real permanent neurological damage. The active b12 protocol might allow you to heal.
     
  5. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

    Messages:
    724
    Likes:
    107
    Russell Island, Australia
    I've got physical autoimmune problems that are settled down by glutathione. So to go without glutathione is to invite that damage. I don't wish to see my ears collapse or my trachea disappear (relapsing polychondritis), not to mention the chondroitin in my heart. It's a nasty disease and the only thing that gives me even a little relief is glutathione.

    Also, my excitotoxicity is already so extreme, that starting either of the methylation protocols is next to impossible for me. I've made multiple attempts.
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,546
    Likes:
    916
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Hizzy,

    Well, you do what you need to. One of the responses to low methylb12 and low methylfolate is hyper-reactiveness to all sorts of things, definitie involvement in some autoimmune processes and suspected in others.

    When you tried to start what did you start and what were your reactions each time to each process or however you tried it. Some of these reactions have reasons that something can be done about and we are learning to recognize them.
     
  7. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

    Messages:
    724
    Likes:
    107
    Russell Island, Australia
    The most troublesome is major sympathetic nervous system overdrive / glutamate problems / excitotoxicity.

    I'm waiting for my 23andme kit to come in the mail. Hopefully that might give me some more info on how to go forward. B6 makes my neurological symptoms a lot worse as well, despite having pyroluria.
     
  8. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes:
    331
    Southern USA
    I have not seen the acetyl. I just take the kind my doc likes. The liposomal C and Glutathione. Maybe someone will know.
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,546
    Likes:
    916
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Hixxy,


    The most troublesome is major sympathetic nervous system overdrive / glutamate problems / excitotoxicity.

    Would you describe the symptoms please, as you experienced them.
     
  10. hixxy

    hixxy Woof woof

    Messages:
    724
    Likes:
    107
    Russell Island, Australia
    1. Hyperactivity on the extreme.
    2. Aggression.
    3. Violent mood swings.
    4. Worsening MCS and EMR reactions (I'm already that bad here I can't afford worsening -- I don't tolerate the home I live in!)
    5. Increased tendency to these "shaking fits" (non epileptic). Often trigger off by MCS or EMR.
    6. Increased neuromuscular problems (tight arms, neck, at worst dragging of left or right leg)
    7. Increased teeth grinding.
    8. Worsened depression.
    9. Unstable energy with peaks and crashes (worse than normal).
    10. Worse sensory overload (light, sound).
    11. When nervous system overdrive is at worst just massaging stomach (vagus nerve) can trigger off one of the above shaking fits.
    12. Probably others I'm not listing.

    I've had major neurological problems ever since high dose b6 therapy for pyroluria 1 1/2 years ago. I developed glutamate intolerance pretty much over night. Then I hit spreading stage of MCS Feb last year and everything just went ballistic because my health was so bad at the time. I was going through major weight loss and muscle wasting. I've regained most of it now. I also developed EMR sensitivity as my MCS got worse.

    MCS is in continual decline and I've never been able to stabilise it. I think it's being driven by my neurological problems that trigger from b6 therapy (altho it is a 2 way street).

    My biochemistry is so messed that I have a lot of trouble tolerating much of anything. All seem to give neurological side effects. Mostly making my sympathetic nervous system overdrive worse.

    Around christmas, strep had come back strong and my neurological state was so bad that just looking at the trees swaying off my back verandah would send my brain ballistic and once my muscles spasmed and I collapsed.

    I've spent the last 6 months avoiding almost anything that is stimulating to the nervous system. Not very fun.

    hixxy
     
  11. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,450
    Likes:
    1,720
    Tundras of Europa
    There is no reason to believe that the Active Bs cause exitotoxicity. In fact, methylcobalamin has been shown to protect from it.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,546
    Likes:
    916
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Hixxy,

    That certainly sounds to a large degree like deficiencies and unbalance. If you have paradoxical folate deficiency and were taking folic acid or folinic acid or for some people even just too much folate from veggies, that can block the methylfolate and increase all those hypersensitivity symptoms. I know the muscle wasting, been there and done that, and recovered. I used to have a moderate (if such can ever be moderate) MCS which also is largely gone now. You cound a lot like me at my worst. The thing with b12 is when you have so terribly little that everything is hyper reactive, small amounts make a huge difference. Some are having success with really micro doses. Litteraly a crumb from the Enzymatic Therapy Infusion b12, getting a tiny amount per day. The problem is how to get some intpo the system so it can head towards normal without knocking your socks off. Mb12 protects against various kinds of neurotoxins. Some folks find ATP starting to get made again almost intolerable and some find the nervous system coming back very difficult. And yet, they need to come back if a person is going to recover. So micro doses.
     
  13. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

    Messages:
    166
    Likes:
    4
    Hixxy,

    I have MCS, probably in a milder form, that is currently responding to the Active B Protocol, though this is the second time I have done it. I might have had different start up symptoms the first time around, but don't remember, as I wasn't tracking those as well.

    I do have at minimum, (but suspect I may have something going on with the 50 some-odd other MTHFR related polymorphisms) a single C677T MTHFR deficiency gene, but do not know about any of the rest of the Yasko-type genetics for myself.

    Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker tracks VIP, Vasoactive Intestinal Polypeptide, which he believes is low in MCS patients. I have noticed that when mine in lower I am definitely more sensitive. When it is higher, I am less sensitive. HOW VIP interacts with methylation, I am not sure anyone knows -- Rich Van K, Dr. Shoemaker, or Freddd, or anyone for that matter. I think and hope Richvank MIGHT a research interest in this area, and he is excellent in the theoretical parts of our problems, as is Freddd.


    Personally, I did have glutathione in some Myers infusions a few years back, but that was before I knew of my MTHFR. I am not seeing that doc, and am not currently including it in my protocol, as I hope to build my glutathione slowly with the B-protocol. I am getting a TREMENDOUS amount of healing with what I am currently doing.

    Best of luck to you, MCS stinks.
    I do not have an opinion on form.
     
  14. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

    Messages:
    5,111
    Likes:
    3,364
    N. California
    I beg to differ on this statement! In my case seeing is believing. I have had some *severe* excitotoxicity symptoms from both the methyl B12 and the adB12. In fact, taking just the adB12 for several weeks a couple years ago triggered a major detox of heavy metals for me, which I was able to verify with a lab test.

    Just in the last couple days, taking several doses of the metafolin triggered severe agitated depression. We'll see how long it takes to get past it--I am not over it yet.

    When you are dealing with hypersensitive people with neuro-immune abnormalities, ANY THING can cause ANY SYMPTOM at ANY TIME. There are no absolutes, and no definitely safe protocols. It's a constant process of trial and self-correction.
     
  15. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,450
    Likes:
    1,720
    Tundras of Europa
    Heavy metal detox has nothing to do with exitotoxicity. Whether exitotoxicity is involved in depression is an open question, but there could be many reasons for that. Methylfolate is actually used in the treatment of depression, and I have never seen any evidence that it can cause it. And as I said earlier, mb12 has been shown in studies to protect neurons from exitotoxicity.
     
  16. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

    Messages:
    5,111
    Likes:
    3,364
    N. California
    Excitotoxicity is often the result of heavy metal detox, which is often one of the results of over-methylation.

    Yes, it is an open question. I will agree with you on that.

    As for evidence, there is a big difference between THEORY and REALITY. I opt for the latter.

    Peace out.
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,546
    Likes:
    916
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Dreambirdie,

    Adb12 works primarily to produce ATP. Now ATP is a necessary item for a lot of enzymes to do their work, supplying energy for them. However, a lot of people have used the word "excitotoxicity" to describe what is probably more correctly just plain "excito" from more energy generation. Mb12 tends to combine directly with many toxins transporting them out of the body. It also directly protects neurons agains glutatmate toxicity. So again, waking up nerves is excitatory without anything toxic about it.

    In fact, taking just the adB12 for several weeks a couple years ago triggered a major detox of heavy metals for me, which I was able to verify with a lab test.


    That would most likely be via indirect means such as ATP powering some of the enzymes required for that. There is an explanation but "excitotoxicity" is probably a poor semantic choice. It makes all sorts of probably invalid assumptions. A few people have assigned that term to the ATP startup effects which are stimulating. Aerobic ATP production produces 6 times as much energy as anaerobic energy production which leaves the muscles sore. Six times as much energy gets noticed very strongly but is not toxic itself. Mb12 and folate deficiencies produce a body that is hyper-reactive to just about everything and all sorts of neuro-immune abnormalities. That is very characteristic of these deficiencies. As long as the things whose deficiency couse the problem are avoided, the worse things get. A lot of the problems people called "detox" turn out to be rapidly dropping potassium and/or folate levels. One or both of those are very probably and they will produce unending worsening if not dealt with appropriately. Use of the term "excitotoxicity" for the effects of mb12 and adb12 cheapens the term and robs it of it's valid meanings. It also produces an insurmountable problem cutting off every avenue of escape by defintion.

    Depression is directly caused by lack of mb12, adb12 and methylfolate as well as indirectly casued by the same lacks via dozens of pathways that are affected.
     
  18. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,450
    Likes:
    1,720
    Tundras of Europa
    You are the one making theories here. You have no way of knowing that the symptoms you experience are due to exitotoxicity. That's the reality.

    You can read the following study, which shows that mb12 protect neurons from exitotoxicity. This is not theory.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7901032/

    Heavy metals are indeed neurotoxic, but that is not the same as exitotoxicity. Exitotoxicity is caused by overactive neurons, akin to what happens in an epileptic fit.
     
  19. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

    Messages:
    166
    Likes:
    4
    What type of excitotoxicity, exactly? What definition is being used?

    Certain kinds can take place after traumatic brain injury involving ischemia, and certain types can be caused by neurotoxins, mycotoxins being one example.

    What symptoms do doctors tell people to look for when watching for excitotoxicity? Is this specifically looking out for something like nerve pain, twitching limbs, or what? I do not know what to look for.

    I am not familiar with some uses of the term.
     
  20. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,450
    Likes:
    1,720
    Tundras of Europa
    Excitotoxicity is excessive neuronal firing, causing excessive glutamate release, which is toxic to neurons.

    It is important to note that glutamate is not exitotoxic per se, in normal amounts. It is an important neurotransmitter that we couldn't do without. It is involved in learning and memory, among other functions. Excessive glutamate levels can be neurotoxic, though.

    Exitotoxicity might be involved in CFS/ME, but it is not because of viamin B.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page