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Ability to work ATOS medical test: Jjudge for yourself (Daily Express, 27 Jan 2011)

Discussion in 'Action Alerts and Advocacy' started by drjohn, Jan 27, 2011.

  1. drjohn

    drjohn Senior Member

    Messages:
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    Ability to work ATOS medical test: An invitation to judge for yourself (Daily Express, 27 January 2011)

    PERMISSION TO FORWARD, USE IN NEWSLETTERS AND RE POST ON FACEBOOK PAGES

    To read a letter from Dr John Greensmith
    click here http://www.mefreeforall.org/index.php?id=2686#c10273

    Any letters in response and support should be sent to e-mail address
    expressletters@express.co.uk

    May I urge as many as can manage to write about the ATOS work capability test. Are there any other people prepared to have a journalist accompany them? If so, please make the offer to follow my example and, if you will, copy to me to strengthen our case around the UK. Those outside the UK should not feel excluded. You will no doubt have eligibility criteria for welfare benefits in your country and we can learn from each other's experiences.

    Or just laugh your head off with our joke of the day
    here http://www.mefreeforall.org/index.php?id=1569

    Cheers
    John
    drjohngreensmith@mefreeforall.org
    Dr John H Greensmith
    ME Free For All. org
     
  2. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    ATOS put me of Incapacity Benefit, gave me 3 points...(you need 18)
    but hey they've done the same for folk dying of cancer,
    folk with no legs,
    folk who ATOS in it's other role as medical assessor for the government put an ME patient OUT of work saying she was unfit to work so she got sacked and then said she was fit enough to work in their benefit section....

    rotten evil *******. this is the REAL face of our new Corporate Fascist rulers, don't damn kid yourselves, people, those monsters have crawled back out of the woodwork after hiding for 80 years. :/
     
  3. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    I'm currently on high rate DLA... but I've had some improvements in my condition and think I might have to come off that soon. Incapacity benefit looks like it's just as hard to keep.

    I might go from living quite comfortably on disability benefits to being expected to find a full time job... just because I'm nearing the point of being well enough to leave my house on most days. I'm saving up as much money as I can, in the hope that at some point they'll notice the harm that's being done to people and reverse course on this...

    I wonder if they're examining how many former incapacity claiments go on to find a job, rather than just being stuck on unemplyment benefit?
     
  4. oceanblue

    oceanblue Senior Member

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    UK
    The Review of ESA by Prof Harrington did touch on this, though this was from the pilot of new applicants, not people already accepted onto IB.
    Full report here.

    The ME Association say they've struggled to find anyone with ME who has got past the ATOS test. My IB is reviewed in October and I'm worried.
     
  5. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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  6. oceanblue

    oceanblue Senior Member

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    UK
  7. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Ah... they were the 'new' incapacity tests so I thought that was what ESA was too. Anyone know what the ESA criteria are?
     
  8. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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  9. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Here's some of it. I'm not quite sure if you need 10 or 15 points... I thought I'd read both:

    Edit: I'd add a word of caution. Gerwyn mentioned that on the old test only the highest scores for walking problems counted towards your total. There could well be other quirks like this too.

    Edit 2 for this:

    If the customer scores 15 points in any physical and/ or mental activity or a total of 15 or more points from a combination of activities, then the criterion for limited capability for work is met for benefit entitlement purposes. At this stage the decision maker will also consider whether a customer is to be placed into the Support Group, if the advice from the approved healthcare professional indicates one of the criteria for limited capability for work-related activity has been met.




    Limited Capability for Work
    Descriptors and scores for each physical activity
    Activities
    1. Walking with a walking stick or other aid if such aid is normally used
    Descriptor Points
    a) Cannot walk at all 15
    b) Cannot walk more than 50 metres on level ground without repeatedly 15
    stopping or severe discomfort
    c) Cannot walk up or down two steps even with the support of a handrail 15
    d) Cannot walk more than 100 metres on level ground without stopping 9
    or severe discomfort
    e) Cannot walk more than 200 metres on level ground without stopping 6
    or severe discomfort
    f) None of the above apply 0
    2. Standing and sitting
    Descriptor Points
    a) Cannot stand for more than 10 minutes, unassisted by another 15
    person, even if free to move around, before needing to sit down
    b) Cannot sit in a chair with a high back and no arms for more than 15
    10 minutes before needing to move from the chair because the degree
    of discomfort experienced makes it impossible to continue sitting
    c) Cannot rise to standing from sitting in an upright chair without 15
    physical assistance from another person
    d) Cannot move between one seated position and another seated 15
    position located next to one another without receiving physical assistance
    from another person
    e) Cannot stand for more than 30 minutes, even if free to move around, 6
    before needing to sit down
    f) Cannot sit in a chair with a high back and no arms for more than 6
    30 minutes without needing to move from the chair because the degree
    of discomfort experienced makes it impossible to continue sitting
    g) None of the above apply 0
    3. Bending or kneeling
    Descriptor Points
    a) Cannot bend to touch knees and straighten up again 15
    b) Cannot bend, kneel or squat, as if to pick up a light object, such as a 9
    piece of paper, situated 15cm from the floor on a low shelf, to move
    it and straighten up again without the help of another person
    c) Cannot bend, kneel or squat, as if to pick up a light object off the floor 6
    and straighten up again without the help of another person
    d) None of the above apply 0
    4. Reaching
    Descriptor Points
    a) Cannot raise either arm as if to put something in top pocket of a 15
    coat or jacket
    b) Cannot put either arm behind back as if to put on a coat or jacket 15
    c) Cannot raise either arm to top of head as if to put on a hat 9
    d) Cannot raise either arm above head height as if to reach for 6
    something
    e) None of the above apply 0
    5. Picking up and moving or transferring by the use of the upper body and arms (excluding all other activities specified)
    Descriptor Points
    a) Cannot pick up and move a 0.5 litre carton full of liquid with either 15
    hand
    b) Cannot pick up and move a one litre carton full of liquid with either 9
    hand
    c) Cannot pick up and move a light but bulky object such as an empty 6
    cardboard box, requiring the use of both hands together
    d) None of the above apply 0
    6. Manual dexterity
    Descriptor Points
    a) Cannot turn a ‘star-headed’ sink tap with either hand 15
    b) Cannot pick up a 1 coin or equivalent with either hand 15
    c) Cannot turn the pages of a book with either hand 15
    d) Cannot physically use a pen or pencil 9
    e) Cannot physically use a conventional keyboard or mouse 9
    f) Cannot do up/ undo small buttons, such as shirt or blouse buttons 9
    g) Cannot turn a ‘star-headed’ sink tap with one hand but can with the 6
    other
    h) Cannot pick up a 1 coin or equivalent with one hand but can with 6
    the other
    i) Cannot pour from an open 0.5 litre carton full of liquid 6
    j) None of the above apply 0
    7. Speech
    Descriptor Points
    a) Cannot speak at all 15
    b) Speech cannot be understood by strangers 15
    c) Strangers have great difficulty understanding speech 9
    d) Strangers have some difficulty understanding speech 6
    e) None of the above apply 0
    Employment And Support Allowance
    ESA214 – The Work Capability Assessment
    20
    8. Hearing with a hearing aid or other aid if normally worn
    Descriptor Points
    a) Cannot hear at all 15
    b) Cannot hear well enough to be able to hear someone talking in a 15
    loud voice in a quiet room, sufficiently clearly to distinguish the words
    being spoken
    c) Cannot hear someone talking in a normal voice in a quiet room, 9
    sufficiently clearly to distinguish the words being spoken
    d) Cannot hear someone talking in a loud voice in a busy street, 6
    sufficiently clearly to distinguish the words being spoken
    e) None of the above apply 0
    9. Vision including visual activity and visual fields, in normal daylight or bright electric light, with glasses or other aid to vision if such aid is normally worn
    Descriptor Points
    a) Cannot see at all 15
    b) Cannot see well enough to read 16 point print at a distance of 15
    greater than 20 cm
    c) Has 50% or greater reduction of visual fields 15
    d) Cannot see well enough to recognise a friend at a distance of at 9
    least 5 metres
    e) Has 25% or more but less than 50% reduction of visual fields 6
    f) Cannot see well enough to recognise a friend at a distance of at 6
    least 15 metres
    g) None of the above apply 0
    10 (a) Continence other than enuresis (bed wetting) where the customer does not have an artificial stoma or urinary collecting device
    Descriptor Points
    a)(i) Has no voluntary control over the evacuation of the bowel 15
    a)(ii) Has no voluntary control over the voiding of the bladder 15
    a)(iii) At least once a month loses control of bowels so that the customer 15
    cannot control the full evacuation of the bowel
    a)(iv) At least once a week, loses control of bladder so that the customer 15
    cannot control the full voiding of the bladder
    a)(v) Occasionally loses control of bowels so that the customer cannot 9
    control the full evacuation of the bowel
    a)(vi) At least once a month loses control of bladder so that the customer 6
    cannot control the full voiding of the bladder
    a)(vii) Risks losing control of bowels or bladder so that the customer 6
    cannot control the full evacuation of the bowel or the full voiding of the
    bladder if not able to reach a toilet quickly
    a)(viii) None of the above apply 0
    (b) Continence where the customer uses a urinary collecting device, worn for the majority of the time including an indwelling urethral or suprapubic catheter
    Descriptor Points
    b)(i) Is unable to affix, remove or empty the catheter bag or other device 15
    without receiving physical assistance from another person
    b)(ii) Is unable to affix, remove or empty the catheter bag or other 15
    collecting device without causing leakage of contents
    b)(iii) Has no voluntary control over the evacuation of the bowel 15
    b)(iv) At least once a month, loses control of bowels so that the customer 15
    cannot control the full evacuation of the bowel
    b)(v) Occasionally loses control of bowels so that the customer cannot 9
    control the full evacuation of the bowel
    b)(vi) Risks losing control of the bowels so that the customer cannot 6
    control the full evacuation of the bowel if not able to reach a toilet quickly
    b)(vii) None of the above apply 0
    10 (c) Continence other than enuresis (bed wetting) where the customer has an artificial stoma
    Descriptor Points
    c)(i) Is unable to affix, remove or empty stoma appliance without 15
    receiving physical assistance from another person
    c)(ii) Is unable to affix, remove or empty stoma appliance without 15
    causing leakage of contents
    c)(iii) Where the customer’s artificial stoma relates solely to the evacuation 15
    of the bowel, at least once a week, loses control of bladder so that the
    customer cannot control the full voiding of the bladder
    c)(iv) Where the customer’s artificial stoma relates solely to the evacuation 9
    of the bowel, at least once a month, loses control of bladder so that the
    customer cannot control the full voiding of bladder
    c)(v) Where the customer’s artificial stoma relates solely to the evacuation 6
    of the bowel, risks losing control of the bladder so that the customer
    cannot control the full voiding of the bladder if not able to reach a toilet
    quickly
    c)(vi) None of the above apply 0
    11. Remaining conscious during waking moments
    Descriptors Points
    a) At least once a week, has an involuntary episode of lost or altered 15
    consciousness, resulting in significantly disrupted awareness or
    concentration
    b) At least once a month, has an involuntary episode of lost or altered 9
    consciousness, resulting in significantly disrupted awareness or
    concentration
    c) At least twice in six months immediately preceding the assessment, 6
    has had an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness,
    resulting in significantly disrupted awareness or concentration
    d) None of the above apply 0
    Descriptors and scores for each mental, cognitive and intellectual function assessment
    12. Learning or comprehension in completion of tasks
    Descriptors Points
    a) Cannot learn or understand how to successfully complete a simple 15
    task, such as setting an alarm clock, at all
    b) Needs to witness a demonstration, given more than once on the 15
    same occasion, of how to carry out a simple task before the customer is
    able to learn or understand how to complete the task successfully, but
    would be unable to successfully complete the task the following day
    without receiving a further demonstration of how to complete it
    c) Needs to witness a demonstration of how to carry out a simple task, 9
    before the customer is able to learn or understand how to complete the
    task successfully, but would be unable to successfully complete the task
    the following day without receiving a verbal prompt from another person
    d) Needs to witness a demonstration of how to carry out a moderately 9
    complex task, such as the steps involved in operating a washing
    machine to correctly clean clothes, before the customer is able to learn
    or understand how to complete the task successfully, but would be
    unable to successfully complete the task the following day without
    receiving a verbal prompt from another person
    e) Needs verbal instructions as to how to carry out a simple task before 6
    the customer is able to learn or understand how to complete the task
    successfully, but would be unable, within a period of less than one week,
    to successfully complete the task the following day without receiving a
    verbal prompt from another person
    f) None of the above apply 0
    13. Awareness of hazards
    Descriptors Points
    a) Reduced awareness of the risks of everyday hazards (such as 15
    boiling water or sharp objects) would lead to daily instances of or
    to near-avoidance of:
    (i) injury to self or others; or
    (ii) significant damage to property or possessions,
    to such an extent that overall day to day life cannot successfully be
    managed
    b) Reduced awareness of the risks of everyday hazards would lead 9
    for the majority of the time to instances of or to near-avoidance of:
    (i) injury to self and others; or
    (ii) significant damage to property or possessions,
    to such an extent that overall day to day life cannot successfully be
    managed without supervision from another person
    c) Reduced awareness of the risks of everyday hazards has led or 6
    would lead to frequent instances of or to near-avoidance of:
    (i) injury to self or others; or
    (ii) significant damage to property or possessions,
    but not to such an extent that overall day to day life cannot be managed
    when such incidents occur
    d) None of the above apply 0
    14. Memory and concentration
    Descriptors Points
    a) On a daily basis, forgets or loses concentration to such an extent that 15
    overall day to day life cannot be successfully managed without receiving
    verbal prompting, given by someone else in the customer’s presence
    b) For the majority of the time, forgets or loses concentration to such an 9
    extent that overall day to day life cannot be successfully managed
    without receiving verbal prompting, given by someone else in the
    customer’s presence
    c) Frequently forgets or loses concentration to such an extent that overall 6
    day to day life can only be successfully managed with pre-planning, such
    as making a daily written list of all tasks forming part of daily life that are
    to be completed
    d) None of the above apply 0
    15. Execution of tasks
    Descriptors Points
    a) Is unable to successfully complete any everyday task 15
    b) Takes more than twice the length of time it would take a person 15
    without any form of mental disablement, to successfully complete an
    everyday task with which the customer is familiar
    c) Takes more than one and a half times but no more than twice the 9
    length of time it would take a person without any form of mental
    disablement to successfully complete an everyday task with which the
    customer is familiar
    d) Takes one and a half times the length of time it would take a person 6
    without any form of mental disablement to successfully complete an
    everyday task with which the customer is familiar
    e) None of the above apply 0
    16. Initiating and sustaining personal action
    Descriptors Points
    a) Cannot, due to cognitive impairment or a severe disorder of mood 15
    or behaviour, initiate or sustain any personal action (which means
    planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising or switching tasks)
    b) Cannot, due to cognitive impairment or a severe disorder of mood 15
    or behaviour, initiate or sustain personal action without requiring
    verbal prompting given by another person in the customer’s presence
    for the majority of the time
    c) Cannot, due to cognitive impairment or a severe disorder of mood 9
    or behaviour, initiate or sustain personal action without requiring verbal
    prompting given by another person in the customer’s presence for the
    majority of the time
    d) Cannot, due to cognitive impairment or a severe disorder of mood 6
    or behaviour, initiate or sustain personal action without requiring
    frequent verbal prompting given by another person in the customer’s
    presence
    e) None of the above apply 0
    17. Coping with change
    Descriptors Points
    a) Cannot cope with very minor, expected changes in routine, to the 15
    extent that overall day to day life cannot be managed
    b) Cannot cope with expected changes in routine (such as a 9
    pre-arranged permanent change to the routine time scheduled for a
    lunch break), to the extent that overall day to day life is made
    significantly more difficult
    c) Cannot cope with minor, unforeseen changes in routine (such as an 6
    unexpected change of the timing of an appointment on the day it is due
    to occur), to the extent that overall, day to day life is made significantly
    more difficult
    d) None of the above apply 0
    18. Getting about
    Descriptors Points
    a) Cannot get to any specified place with which the customer is, or 15
    would be, familiar
    b) Is unable to get to a specified place with which the customer is 15
    familiar, without being accompanied by another person on each occasion
    c) For the majority of the time is unable to get to a specified place with 9
    which the customer is familiar without being accompanied by another
    person
    d) Is frequently unable to get to a specified place with which the 6
    customer is familiar without being accompanied by another person
    e) None of the above apply 0
    19. Coping with social situations
    Descriptors Points
    a) Normal activities, for example, visiting new places or engaging in 15
    social contact, are precluded because of overwhelming fear or anxiety
    b) Normal activities, for example, visiting new places or engaging in 9
    social contact, are precluded for the majority of the time due to
    overwhelming fear or anxiety
    c) Normal activities, for example, visiting new places or engaging in 6
    social contact, are frequently precluded, due to overwhelming fear
    or anxiety
    d) None of the above apply 0
    20. Propriety of behaviour with other people
    Descriptors Points
    a) Has unpredictable outbursts of aggressive, disinhibited, or 15
    bizarre behaviour, being either:
    (i) sufficient to cause disruption to others on a daily basis; or
    (ii) of such severity that although occurring less frequently than
    on a daily basis, no reasonable person would be expected to
    tolerate them
    b) Has a completely disproportionate reaction to minor events or to 15
    criticism to the extent that the customer has an extreme violent outburst
    leading to threatening behaviour or actual physical violence
    c) Has unpredictable outbursts of aggressive, disinhibited or bizarre 9
    behaviour, sufficient in severity and frequency to cause disruption for
    the majority of the time
    d) Has a strongly disproportionate reaction to minor events or to criticism, 9
    to the extent that the customer cannot manage overall day to day life when
    such events or criticism occur
    e) Has unpredictable outbursts of aggressive, disinhibited or bizarre 6
    behaviour, sufficient to cause frequent disruption
    f) Frequently demonstrates a moderately disproportionate reaction to 6
    minor events or to criticism but not to such an extent that the customer
    cannot manage overall day to day life when such events or criticism occur
    g) None of the above apply 0
    21. Dealing with other people
    Descriptors Points
    a) Is unaware of impact of own behaviour to the extent that: 15
    (i) has difficulty relating to others even for brief periods, such as a
    few hours; or
    (ii) causes distress to others on a daily basis
    b) The customer misinterprets verbal or non-verbal communication to the 15
    extent of causing himself or herself significant distress on a daily basis
    c) Is unaware of impact of own behaviour to the extent that: 9
    (i) has difficulty relating to others for longer periods, such as a day
    or two; or
    (ii) causes distress to others for the majority of the time
    d) The customer misinterprets verbal or non-verbal communication to the 9
    extent of causing himself or herself significant distress to himself for the
    majority of the time
    e) Is unaware of impact of own behaviour to the extent that: 6
    (i) has difficulty relating to others for prolonged periods, such
    as a week; or
    (ii) frequently causes distress to others
    Employment And Support Allowance
    f) The customer misinterprets verbal or non-verbal communication to the 6
    extent of causing himself or herself significant distress on a frequent basis
    g) None of the above apply 0
     
  10. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    Some more - I think this is automatic elligability stuff.

    Limited Capability for Work-Related Activity
    Descriptors for each activity
    1. Walking or moving on level ground
    Descriptor
    Cannot a: walk (with a walking stick or other aid if such aid is normally used)
    b: move (with the aid of crutches if crutches are normally used); or
    c: manually propel the customers wheelchair
    more than 30 metres without repeatedly stopping, experiencing breathlessness or severe discomfort
    2. Rising from sitting and transferring from one seated position to another
    Descriptor
    Cannot complete both of the following
    a: rise to standing from sitting in an upright chair without receiving physical assistance from someone else; and
    b: move between one seated position and another seated position located next to one another without receiving physical assistance from someone else
    3. Picking up and moving or transferring by the use of the upper body and arms (excluding standing, sitting, bending or kneeling and all other activities specified)
    Descriptor
    Cannot pick up and move 0.5 litre carton full of liquid with either hand
    4. Reaching
    Descriptor
    Cannot raise either arm as if to put something in the top pocket of a coat or jacket
    5. Manual dexterity
    Descriptor
    Cannot a: turn a star-headed sink tap with either hand; or
    b: pick up a 1 coin or equivalent with either hand
    6. Continence
    Descriptor
    (a) Continence other than enuresis (bed wetting) where the customer does not have an artificial stoma or urinary collecting device.
    a: Has no voluntary control over the evacuation of the bowel;
    b: Has no voluntary control over the voiding of the bladder;
    c: At least once a week, loses control of bowels so that the customer cannot control the full evacuation of the bowel;
    d: At least once a week, loses control of bladder so that the customer cannot control the full voiding of the bladder;
    e: At least once a week, fails to control full evacuation of the bowel, owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour; or
    f: At least once a week, fails to control full-voiding of the bladder, owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour.
    (b) Continence where the customer uses a urinary collecting device, worn for the majority of the time including an indwelling urethral or suprapubic catheter.
    a: Is unable to affix, remove or empty the catheter bag or other collecting device without receiving physical assistance from another person;
    b: Is unable to affix, remove or empty the catheter bag or other collecting device without causing leakage of contents;
    c: Has no voluntary control over the evacuation of the bowel;
    d: At least once a week loses control of bowels so that the customer cannot control the full evacuation of the bowel; or
    e: At least once a week, fails to control full evacuation of the bowel, owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour.
    (c) Continence other than enuresis (bed wetting) where the customer has an artificial stoma appliance.
    a: Is unable to affix, remove or empty stoma appliance without receiving physical assistance from another person;
    b: Is unable to affix, remove or empty stoma without causing leakage of contents;
    c: Where the customers artificial stoma relates solely to the evacuation of the bowel, has no voluntary control over voiding of bladder;
    d: Where the customers artificial stoma relates solely to the evacuation of the bowel, at least once a week, loses control of the bladder so that the customer cannot control the full voiding of the bladder; or
    e: Where the customers artificial stoma relates solely to the evacuation of the bowel, at least once a week, fails to control the full voiding of the bladder, owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour.
    7. Maintaining personal hygiene
    Descriptor
    a: Cannot wash the front of their body without receiving physical assistance from someone else;
    b: Cannot wash the front of their body without repeatedly stopping, experiencing breathlessness or severe discomfort;
    c: Cannot wash the front of their body without receiving regular prompting given by someone else in the customers presence; or
    d: Owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour, fails to wash the front of their own body without receiving
    (i) physical assistance from someone else; or
    (ii) regular prompting given by someone else in the customers presence.
    Employment And Support Allowance
    ESA214 The Work Capability Assessment
    29
    8. Eating and drinking
    Descriptor
    (a) Conveying food or drink to the mouth
    a: Cannot convey food or drink to the customers own mouth without receiving physical assistance from someone else;
    b: Cannot convey food or drink to the customers own mouth without repeatedly stopping, experiencing breathlessness or severe discomfort;
    c: Cannot convey food or drink to the customers own mouth without receiving regular prompting given by someone else in the customers physical presence; or
    d: Owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour, fails to convey food or drink to the customers own mouth without receiving
    (i) physical assistance from someone else; or
    (ii) regular prompting given by someone else in the customers presence.
    (b) Chewing or swallowing food or drink
    a: Cannot chew or swallow food or drink;
    b: Cannot chew or swallow food or drink without repeatedly stopping, experiencing breathlessness or severe discomfort;
    c: Cannot chew or swallow food or drink without repeatedly receiving regular prompting given by someone else in the customers presence; or
    d: Owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour, fails to
    (i) chew or swallow food or drink; or
    (ii) chew or swallow food or drink without regular prompting given by someone else in the customers presence.
    9. Learning or comprehension in the completion of tasks
    Descriptor
    a: Cannot learn or understand how to successfully complete a simple task, such as the preparation of a hot drink, at all;
    b: Needs to witness a demonstration, given more than once on the same occasion of how to carry out a simple task before the customer is able to learn or understand how to complete the task successfully, but would be unable to successfully complete the task the following day without receiving a further demonstration of how to complete it; or
    c: Fails to do any of the matters referred to in (a) or (b) owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour
    10. Personal action
    Descriptor
    a: Cannot initiate or sustain any personal action (which means planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising or switching tasks);
    b: Cannot initiate or sustain personal action without requiring daily verbal prompting given by someone else in the customers presence; or
    c: Fails to initiate or sustain basic personal action without requiring daily verbal prompting given by someone else in the customers presence, owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour.
    11. Communication
    Descriptor
    a: None of the following forms of communication can be achieved by the customer
    (i) speaking (to a standard that may be understood by strangers);
    (ii) writing (to a standard that may be understood by strangers);
    (iii) typing (to a standard that may be understood by strangers);
    (iv) sign language to a standard equivalent to Level 3 British Sign Language;
    b: None of the forms of communication referred to in (a) are achieved by the customer, owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour;
    c: Misinterprets verbal or non-verbal communication to the extent of causing distress to himself or herself on a daily basis; or
    d: Effectively cannot make himself or herself understood to others because of the customers disassociation from reality owing to a severe disorder of mood or behaviour.
     
  11. Sherby

    Sherby Sherby

    Messages:
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    London UK
    6 month ruling confusion

    I have been on incapacity benefit for 3 years then 2 years on ESA total 5 years. Within that time have had 7 ATOS medicals, unbelievable i know but true. What i believe they trying to do is keep us permanently on the lower basic allowance which at present is 64.45.

    Within 13 weeks or near about of applying, you score near to 0 points at the ATOS medical. Obviously we appeal which can take anywhere from 4 months to over a year. In my case i have lost every appeal. This is when you benefit is stopped.
    I would like to point out that some people are being given wrong advice when reapplying for ESA benefit.

    Some of the ESA staff are telling new re-claimants' that they cannot reapply within 6 months from date of Appeal decision, when in fact the rules are 6 months from date of the ATOS medical. Some people are being told that they need to apply for unemployment benefit.

    Its not a problem for most of us because of the long delays in processing the appeals as they are snowed under. But when they do finally
    start reducing the time to process all the appeals we will all be in trouble. Due to the 6 month rule from date of ATOS medical.

    We will not receive any benefits including housing for months at a time. Until we can reapply.

    If anyone has had this problem hopefully this line of detail will
    convince the miss information by ESA staff.

    According to DGM 52/10 DMG 33/10 the 6 month rule Starts from date of the ATOS medical .was current as of the 29TH October 2010. Hopefully they have not changed this rule since then.

    Hope this helps someone.
     
  12. oceanblue

    oceanblue Senior Member

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    Thanks for the extra information, Esther.

    I probably would qualify, in theory, on the walking/standing criteria though I would get zero points for the mental exhaustion and problems travelling (too fatiguing) that are the real reasons I can't work.

    The criteria do look similar to those for the old IB test but from what I've heard about the ESA test, the problem is often with the way their questions and your replies are 'translated' into points, eg apparently if you say you can watch TV they will assume you can sit comfortably in a chair for a couple of hours.

    But if those are the criteria then at least I feel more confident I will have a shout at an appeal.

    Thanks again.
     
  13. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    No probs oceanblue.

    I was thinking that the standing one is my best bet too, but it's a pretty absurd test. I sometimes 'can' stand for more than ten minutes, but most of the time I can't. I doubt these sorts of subtleties are likely to be well treated.

    The idea that anyone who fails to get 15 points is fit to work is just laughable. Vile, abusive comedy.

    I find it difficult to claim it would be immoral to lie to them.

    I find it difficult to claim it would be immoral to assault them!
     
  14. LaurieM

    LaurieM

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    This looks similar to the IB requirement and have found it to be the most significant section in my case.

    I had to attend 2 medicals a year apart - I am 80% bed-ridden and my GP requested a home visit both times, but they refused and sent a Taxi to take me 20 miles to the medical center. On the second visit the "Doctor" was extremely rude - telling me not to keep slouching - I then passed out!

    The form received before being called to a medical asks about loss of consciousness and altered consciousness (at least the IB one did). On the last one I made it clear that I lose or have altered consciousness every few days (which I guess many of us with ME suffer due to OI and other factors). I also stated that I lost conciousness at the previous medical. I received a letter saying I would not be required to attend another medical for another 5 years.

    I will be getting the new ESA form in a few months and I'm dreading the proceedure. But I will repeat that my condition meets section 11(a), and just hope that it saves me the indignity of being taken from my bed to the medical center once again.
     
  15. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    @ Sharby... I hadn't thought about the fact that we could be inelligable of unemployment because we're too ill to be actively seeking work. LOL... what are people meant to do at that point?

    @ Laurel: I wondered about the 'altered state of consciousness' thing. It could mean anything... just getting light headed when you stand up could count. Vertigo? Light head spin? Migraine? Just getting angry could be considered an altered state of consciousness. I rarely rarely pass out.

    Sorry to hear you had such trouble with the medicals. At least they're leaving you alone for a bit now. It really sounds like ESA is now harder to get than DLA! That's absurd.
     
  16. pictureofhealth

    pictureofhealth XMRV - L'Agent du Jour

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    Esther, re standing for 10 minutes - if you find you can't most of the time, then the answer you give them, is No I can't. That is the answer. You can't.

    Also, ? 11a) How many of us lose concentration repeatedly throughout the course of a conversation or day? That's another 15 points right there. Just having to go back to bed during the day happens in ME because the brain cannot stay consious and awake. Fact.

    If you can't guarantee to be able to do something repeatedly, then the answer is - you can't do it.
     
  17. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member

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    I think that's the approach to take.

    These benefit things seem to be phrased and judged on the assumption that you're being a bit dishonest, meaning that those who try to give clear and straight-foreward answer get abused. It seems like a really dehumanising process to me.

    Me and my partner need to sleep in different rooms, but because we're in a relationship we only get the housing benefit for one room. When we spoke to the council about this, with supporting medical evidence, they were apologetic, but implied that really we should have just claimed we were friends living together as they have no mechanism for accounting for medical needs.
     
  18. pictureofhealth

    pictureofhealth XMRV - L'Agent du Jour

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    It sounds sad to say it, but it really is a case of 'understanding how the system works' in order to say the 'right' things to be able receive the benefits to which you are entitled as a result of disability.

    (This is not the same as 'working the system' and abusing it and claiming you need something if in fact you do not have a genuine need.)

    In our case, it is understanding the phrases they are looking for - which is v difficult the first time one claims.

    If for eg, I get very ill and in pain and have to go back to bed after walking 100 metres, then the answer is 'I cannot walk 100 metres'. That is all they need to know.

    I guess its like learning a new language essentially - like in another country where one can so can so easily get it wrong and not get help you need or insult someone, if you don't understand the nuances!

    Then just when you 'get it', the rules change - like now.
     
  19. oceanblue

    oceanblue Senior Member

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    I agree. But from what I've read the ESA decision is based almost entirely on the medical assessment and little weight is give to what you put on the form, or even reports from you doctor (this situation was criticised in Prof Harrington's review so in theory should be changing). And the medical assessment, which is really a computer-driven series of questions, won't ask directly about your standing ability but some other aspect of life which it will interpret as meaning you can stand...
     
  20. SilverbladeTE

    SilverbladeTE Senior Member

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    Somewhere near Glasgow, Scotland
    that is what is beginning to really trouble me :/
    it's bad neough all the crap we've had, but when kids are being stolen off families ("Munchausens Syndrome By Bunch of Scumbags WHo Made It all Up!"), and now disabled may end up dying on the street...way WAY over the score and should never ever get to that point that it causes such potential for trouble, jeesh! :/
     

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