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A video on HIV-AIDS, are there similarities with XMRV-CFS ?

Discussion in 'XMRV Research and Replication Studies' started by cigana, Jan 2, 2011.

  1. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I have watched these two documentaries which dispute the connection between HIV and AIDS. I am not into conspiracy theories, but these seem to me as a layman to be convincing:

    House Of Numbers:
    http://www.novamov.com/video/aekpyzacqazwt

    HIV=AIDS Fact or Fraud?
    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/hiv-aids-fact-or-fraud/

    If anyone who knows a little about viruses and HIV/AIDS could take the time to watch one of these, I'd be really interested to know your opinion.

    I'm just a bit concerned we might mistakenly be going down the same road with the XMRV-CFS connection. But just for the record, I really do hope XMRV turns out to be the cause of CFS.

    Thanks,

    Cig
     
  2. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    It's bit of an old story isn't it Cig, these arguments have been around for years?

    The fact is that my friends with HIV all died before ARV's were introduced and now people with HIV lead far better and healthier lives (at least the ones I know anyway).

    HIV+ people do not support these ideas (one is hard pressed to find them) and we looked at the "real reasons" they pose for AIDS they arguments are similar to the CFS deniers (and that is before XMRV even enters the fray).

    What is it that you find so convincing about these videos?
     
  3. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Hi ukxmrv,

    Thanks for your reply, I'm comforted by it! I suppose the arguments have been around for a while but it is new to me.

    I thought that CFS deniers simply say CFS isn't a real illness, which is not what the HIV-AIDS connection deniers seemed to be saying about AIDS?

    What I found convincing was

    (a) that the prof at Berkely seemed to be a reasonable guy who would answer questions with genuine humanity, wheareas the other guy who was questioned on the basic functioning of the virus seemed to be arrogant and almost offence. This reminds me of the Wessely-ers who are arrogant compared to the good guys like Prof Malcolm Hooper who are more human. If a scientist is asked a question about the science, he should answer in a genuine, truthful manner, but that guy didn't seem prepared to say "okay I don't remember/understand the basics but...".

    (b) the correlation with areas of the world where things like malnutrition are prevalent.

    (c) the blood testing they did in Africa didn't seem to be exactly highly trustworthy

    Cig
     
  4. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    The aids drugs, AZT was deemed too toxic for dying cancer patients, yet for some unknown reason was licensed for HIV positive people. It is a DNA chain terminator, it destroys everything in your body, your brain, immune system .. everything. If the drug kills one HIV, it might destroy 1000 healthy cells, or maybe even 10,000. The outcome of taking AZT for long enough is death.

    Fast forward to now, I am reading about XMRV and how they are trying AZT on CFS patients. I can see the same outcome as HIV patients, death.

    I don't understand how people have made the mental leap to connect a virus to chronic fatigue. CFS has never shown to be an infectous disease. I've never read about someone having CFS, sleeping with someone else then developing chronic fatigue. If it was an infectous disease, it would spread like one.

    Big pharma hyping another imaginary threat just seems like a great excuse for them to do what they are so great at, selling drugs and vaccines, whilst ignoring the real causes of disease.

    No one will talk about issues like mercury dental amalgams. It has been known for well over 100 years that dental amalgams leak mercury and poison people. Why not public support for that ?

    [video=youtube;9ylnQ-T7oiA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ylnQ-T7oiA[/video]
     
  5. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Cig, I can't answer or even comment on Africa because I have no experience. What I did know is that my HIV+ friends who died were not heavy drugs users or suffering from malnutrition. My current HIV+ friends are much better on ARV's.

    AZT was a disaster at the start and people did die or were permanently damaged. Some of them are still alive and suffering because of the high does of AZT that they took. Time has however moved on and dosages/drugs are very different now. People are alive, some are working and higher functioning members of society than we are.

    I don't judge ARV treatment with any enthusiasm. I've been damaged by other drugs before so know the risks. However, if there is a clinical trial I would consider joining this (after assessing all the risks of course).

    One of the anti-hiv/aids documentaries screened in London a while back and there was a lot of publicity and a website. When I looked on the website the arguments were similar to the anti-CFS (before XMRV) ones.
     
  6. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Ian, I've seen quite a lot about dental amalgams over the decades I've had ME. Met people who have had them removed. In the circles I've been in it has been thoroughly talked about and has just gone out of fashion as a "cause". It comes back every 10 years or so.

    If it was as easy as dental amalgams we wouldn't need a forum like this. I didn't have any metal amalgams when I became ill.

    AZT - if you can provide an proof that at todays dosages and with todays regime it is killing lots of people please post it.

    My onset was acute and viral type so it has always been logical to me that it was a virus. Look back in the history and learn about the epidemics. There are still plenty of people alive who became ill with ME after an epidemic (like me).
     
  7. guest

    guest Guest

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    It's all very easy. If someone denies that HIV leads to AIDS then he should infect himself with HIV and show the world what a genius he is.

    But could you please stop abusing this board for all kind of conspiracy theories? I'm really ashamed of the fact that people with a scientific backround look at this board and see these skewed threads. This is image damage at its finest. After reading this I can understand anyone who thinks that PWCs have a psychological illness.

    There are tons of conspiracy boards over the internet, please open your threads there OR at least do your own search for AIDS denialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIDS_denialism).

    Ian, just to declare sth. for the avoidance of doubt, if both of us get infected by a virus then I take the antivirals and you would not, correct?
     
  8. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Hi Ian,

    I am very shocked to hear AZT is being trialed in PWC's, that is a route I would not consider going down. I think people on this forum are well aware of the dangers of mercury, it's a shame the public are not.

    I'm glad you brought up the topic of infection with XMRV, I have never understood why CFS doesn't usually spread (except for the outbreaks) if it is a virus. One reason might be simply that XMRV is a necessary but not sufficient condition for CFS. So for example we carry XMRV for a long time but only come down with CFS if there is another trigger (such as another virus, bacterial infection or other stressors). This could give the impression that it doesn't spread like a virus. I am sure there are people on this forum who know the answer to this question.

    I think what really concerns me is that XMRV could be hailed as the cause when it isn't, or when it's only part of the cause. In my own area of science I see this kind of thing all the time - a whole international group of scientists can get away with proliferating a totally incorrect viewpoint by arrogantly pushing their own research and endlessly citing each other. Over time their viewpoint becomes accepted as correct and more and more people are employed to undertake research based on very poor theoretical foundations.

    I think this tends to happen in branches of science where there is a financial incentive for a particular result. In physics I have definitely witnessed this: a group of scientists working in a particular branch which was unsuccessful seek to keep themsleves in employment by proposing that their theories are (a) much more promising than they really are and (b) are of the type that easily attract funding. Combine those two ingredients with a little arrogance (possessed by many scientists unfortunately) and you have the perfect recipe for proliferating a shabby branch of science. Wessely et al are a perfect example of this.

    I know very little about virology, but I do worry that something similar could happen with XMRV and CFS. One thing that is positive is that Mikovits seems like a very genuine, caring person, which comforts me. Don't get me wrong, I hope CFS does turn out to be as "simple" as XMRV. When I watched these videos on HIV-AIDS, I was reminded of the abuse of science I have witnessed in my own field.

    Anyway, for me to reach a conclusion on my own would take years of personal research, that's why I really keen to hear from people with a deep understanding of the science involved in viral diseases! Does anyone else here share this "healthy scepticism"?
     
  9. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Cig,

    I tested XMRV+ and remain "healthy skeptical" because I've been disappointed so many times before. The "science" bandwagon has been wrong before as you point out and self interest is rife.

    What I am doing is reading all the medical papers, reading all the commentaries on them and campaigning for more research. XMRV is something that I have judged deserves the right amount of science to see if it is right or wrong.

    The WPI will still be there and will move onto other things if it is disproved. I'll still support them even if XMRV doesn't work out. They may well find other things for the people who are XMRV-.

    When it all boils down what else to we have and who else do we have? I've spent 25+ years trying treatments and investigating theories. I've spent too much money, time and energy on things that didn't work - but were good ideas.

    I'm not going to give up. On the other hand I'm not interesting in deluding myself.
     
  10. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Hi ukxmrv - with you 100%. Cheers.

    Hi Diesel - thanks for the link on "AIDS denialism", it has put my mind at rest that these things seem to have been discussed a lot and these deniers do seem to have lost the arguments. I'll read through it properly now...

    Viva la WPI!

    Cig
     
  11. Ian

    Ian Senior Member

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    I had a jawbone cavitation. According to quackwatch there is no such thing. In fact they go after dentist that treat cavitations and infections from root canals. I literally had to step outside of mainstream medicine to get treated for a disease doctors like to pretend doesn't exist. Had I not done so, I honestly think I would have died befefore I hit my 30th birthday, or had I survived, I am sure I would have been totally bed bound. Sometimes the status quo needs to be challenged, because conventional wisdom is simply wrong. Especially with medicine, drug companies and the media like to play along because there is simply so much money to be made off of treating the symptoms of diseases. If we just accept whatever the drug companies and special interests groups say then it's just over.

    How on earth can this have happened ?
    The media actually ran a peice claiming mercury was good for childrens brains.
    You have to see it to believe.
    [video=youtube;20IhxCzeuDU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20IhxCzeuDU[/video]
     
  12. Jemal

    Jemal Senior Member

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    We just don't know enough and there are still many possibilities. XMRV might be spreading rapidly, but maybe only 1% of people develop CFS. There could be genetics involved, coinfections or other triggers. The polio virus only caused symptoms in 5% of people. But because the virus rapidly spread and millions got infected, it was still deemed a huge health risk.

    At the moment I think it's more likely XMRV is a relatively harmless virus, that causes an autoimmune like disorder in certain people.

    By the way, I must say that my health improved once all my amalgam fillings were removed. I have no idea if there is some kind of connection, though.
     
  13. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Thanks for your thoughts Jemal. By the way, if you read the book Amalgam Illness by Andrew Cutler, you may be convinced that there was a connection between you removing your amalgams and your improvement in health.

    Cig
     
  14. dipic

    dipic Senior Member

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    I think someone has a lot more research to do on the subject. Stick around here for awhile (maybe use the search function - plenty have discussed amalgam fillings), you might be surprised to learn a lot of things that have been known or very obvious to a lot of us for a very long time. I don't mean to be judgmental but a lot of things mentioned in your post seem to signify a lack of knowledge on some important things regarding XMRV, let alone the illness, ME/CFS.
     
  15. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    I've read the wikipedia article on AIDS denialism and it's convinced as a layman there's nothing much to worry about...

    Cig
     
  16. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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    qoute

    I don't understand how people have made the mental leap to connect a virus to chronic fatigue. CFS has never shown to be an infectous disease. I've never read about someone having CFS, sleeping with someone else then developing chronic fatigue. If it was an infectous disease, it would spread like one. End

    Not if its a retro virus, that behaves in a similair fashion to htlv1.

    in that case xmrv is one virus that could fit the problem quite nicely. And i agree With Jemal it may turn out to be relatively harmless to the majoriety, but maybe for similair reason to htlv1, or infact a autoimmune reaction starts to occur after a trigger, possibly viral, bacterial, chemical, and its also possible some paitients immune sytems can be primed for this to all kick off, primed as in many things, drug use ( in my case pot ) alcohol, high stress job. chemical and mold exposure, allergys. at this point there is so many possibilties, that any, or all of those things, over a long period of time, could act as a primer for xmrv to turn into a auto immune disease.

    somthing me and Jemal ( And others ) have been guessing at for some time. But of course at this stage its just a theory. but it feels like the theory fits those with immune dysfunction type symptoms.

    Whats interesting was the study testing viral and non viral indicater me/cfs onset, both groups had immune abnormalitys compaired to controls, but were somewhat different from each other.Apologies i dont have the link
    I also slept with a girl who showed neurological false nerve fireings in the sense of abnormal muscle twitching a week or two later it started in me. and has never stopped. Could have been a sign of xmrv infection.Though i had to prime my immune system for years with drug use and another viral trigger ( maybe toxo plasmosis )
    as i had a lot of cats with litter trays, maybe another viral trigger, but was most likely a bacterial or viral trigger, as i had repeated temperatures of at least 102 f. prior to cfs/me developing. these muscle twitchings are fairly common to me/cfs patients. and i belive, it could be possible its a neurological nerve damage reaction to xmrv infection. something that really needs to be looked at, and is being completely ignored by everyone on this forum. Even though ive tried to explain my reasons for beliving it is possible
     
  17. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Hi free at last,

    If you remember which study that was (that compared the immune response of viral vs. slow onsets) please post it here! Thanks.

    Cig
     
  18. free at last

    free at last Senior Member

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  19. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Thanks free-at-last.
     
  20. roma

    roma

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    hey Ian i dare you to take a blood transfusion from me, i have many HIV like symptoms after having a broken condom incident with a girl back in May, she has atypical MS and most of her symptoms and some ME/CFS symptoms i have now, like brain demyelination, Major GI problems, cognitive problems, pain in liver,spleen, extreme headaches, fatigue,muscle pain and white thursh with a swollen tongue and many other symptoms, i have tested and retested many many times for HIV HTLV and every other std known to man, and every other disease that mimics HIV and has all been negative, but yet i have many HIV like symptoms and she does as well, her last boyfriend also got sick after having unrpotected sex and he hasn't recovered after 4 years,she has tested for HIV many times and also negative, one only wonders if there's something else out there..

    Do you know what clusters means? ME/CFS clusters have been reported to the CDC since the early 1980s, meaning there's a pathogen infecting people.

    Since you seem to be a god sent for the people in this forum and seem to be an expert, could you please tell me what i have? because the numerous specialists and all the major hospitals that i have been to in the last 7 months have no idea what's wrong with me and dunno what to tell me.
    all they know is that i have progressive brain demyelination and that my many numerous tests show some abnormalities including inflammation and others, but don't know what to make of it, could you please tell me what i have? my insurance has already been charged over 50k in the last seven months and i have no answers please tell what i have so i don't spend any more money, keep in mind that i don't have any fillings..

    Also you should probably check out poz.com and thebody.com so you can see how many people that thought had gotten HIV after unrpotected sex kept testing negative for HIV for months and months and some how for some reason have now tested positive for XMRV, you should go tell them to check their fillings maybe that's their problem and all the other problems and infections they have will be gone completely after they remove their fillings..

    I would rather take medications that will give me a good quality of life for 15 20 years and than die after enjoying a healthy couple decades than live in this hell every single day. people with HIV with no meds have a horrible death, people with ME/CFS have a horrible life.

    I send a challenge out there to anybody who doubts that XMRV is real and causes disease, either have unrpotected sex with me and/or get a blood transfusion from me, if you don't get sick then you will have shown to me that there's is nothing wrong with me....i will fly to wherever you are i will come to you so we make this happen.
    send me a PM with your email and phone number so we can arrange this meeting, i will even pay you to get some of my blood.

    Ian please let's make this happen i live in Chicago flights at o'hare are cheap to any part of the country tell me where you are i will come to you..
     

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