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A question for Freddd

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by gu3vara, Jan 7, 2012.

  1. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I'm thinking of switching to the active forms of B12 and eliminate all forms of folic acid and cyanocobalamin from my supplements. I don't have improvements on the SMP so far, it's been about 3 months, I feel wired and have trouble sleeping so far, not much more energy. Maybe I would improve in the months to come but I'd like to try the active forms only and see how I feel on it.

    What I plan to take :

    http://www.iherb.com/Douglas-Laboratories-B-Complex-60-Veggie-Caps/37247?at=0 (BComplex with metafolin), 1 per day split in two doses

    http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Dibencozide-Coenzymated-B-12-Sublingual-120-Tablets/21571?at=0 (Dibencozoide without folic acid), starting slowly, maybe 1 quarter every 2 days.

    http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-Methyl-B-12-5000-mcg-60-Lozenges/117?at=0 (MethylB12), one half per day to start, maybe 1 or more if needed.

    200 mcg extra metafolin. (already 400 mcg in B complex)

    1 Vitamin D 5000 IU every day or two.

    http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Sunflower-Lecithin-1200-mg-200-Softgels/23216?at=0 1 sunflower lecithin per day

    2000 mgs EPA/DHA omega 3


    Should I take anything else to cover my basis, I'd like to take something with trace elements and other missing vitamins but can't find anything without folic acid or NAC on iherb. Do you have any suggestion? Should I take extra l-methionine for instance? It was in the neurological formula that I'm currently taking. I eat quinoa everyday as it's really rich in vitamins, TMG and trace elements I heard.

    I don't want to try other cofactors like SAMe before doing a fair trial of those basics supplements first. Probably would do a nutraeval test after a couple months of this protocol.

    Thanks for the help!
  2. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi gu3vara,

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/showthread.php?11522-Active-B12-Protocol-Basics
    The basics are all detailed in here. You really need to be taking some basic minerals with calcium, magnesium, zinc and a good cross section of trace minerals. You MUST have a potassium supplement at least on hand because if you start healing you will almost certainly have lowering potassium and you may be too incapacitated by it to go out to find some in the middle of the night when yiu REALLY need it. You need A as well as the D. You needd E, my preference is the Now foods high gamma 8 factor e complex. Omeg3 OILS are essential if you want to heal. And a separate bottle of Metafolin would be an excellent idea.

    There are all sorts of things that don't have NAC or folic acid. If you live in the USA near a Costco the Calcium citrate has magnesium, zinc and a bunch of trace minerals. Fish oil in a house brand is usually fine, Vitamin C of 4000 to 6000 mg daily is pretty essential.

    The potentially critical cofactors can be added later if needed and of course balance and quantities to be adjusted as needed.
  3. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Thx for the reply, I forgot a couple of things I already take, like omega 3 and sunflower lecithin. I'll add some trace minerals, vitamin A and E, potassium and calcium.
  4. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    What Bcom is recommended these days? I see the link above suggests Douglas Laboratories B-complex with Metafolin or Pure Encapsulations B-complex plus with Metafolin. Have these been successful?

    Also, I'm curious about something and this is specifically for Freddd: you must have taken Jarrow B-right for a long time, while on your road to recovery. Why was it OK then, and in fact, obviously beneficial, but not now?
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rockt,

    I have had the symptoms of paradoxical folate deficiency all my life. I have had the angular cheilitis all my life. I have had IBS most of my life. I have taken folic acid since a bcomplex since 1970. When I started Special K cereal in 1963 it was my forst runin with significant folic acid and cyanocbl. That was the year I crashed the worse crash ever to that point. I was sick for 75% of the school year instead of the usual 1/3. The year I crashed, 1987, was the year of my biggest and best garden ever. It was also the last year I did a garden until 2 or 3 years ago after I recovered and rehabilitated enough to garden again. I also tried Metafolin for the first time just 3 years ago and had a real comparison for the first time. My entire history of knowing about paradoxical folate deficiency is covered here in this forum the past couple of years. First I had the glutathione triggered folate deficiency. Then I tried folinic acid and had the folinic acid triggered paradoxical folate deficiency. Then I noticed the same thing happening with folic acid. Then this last year I tied it to folate extracted from food and then finally to vegetable food folate just these past few months. Suspecting something and then confiming it takes time.
  6. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Freddd, I saw you talking about about 10 meds causing a folate deficiency, can you share the list? Can't find it using the search function. I occasionally take clonazepam and propranolol, are those ok?

    Also, I was looking at my diet and realized that the almond milk I drink in the morning contains about 50% of the rda for cyanocobalamin.

    Does it matter to suppress those fortified food? Think it's the only one I'm taking as I don't eat gluten at all, commercial bread and cereals are fortified here.

    Are there food that should be avoided, like eggs or anything? I know you advise against green drinks which are rich in folinic. If you already answered that in another post, feel free to just give me a link.

    Thx!
  7. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd.

    Sorry, I wasn't questioning the existence of the paradoxical folate deficiency. I'm more wondering about folic acid in supplements and whether or not I should avoid it. I don't seem to have the sensitivity you do to what I take and their positive/negative response, though I do know when something helps or harms. For example zinc, vit e and Bcom have all left me with increased malaise and more easily triggered mental PEM the following day. Recently I've had more tolerance for all of these. And B-Right seems to be the best tolerated Bcom, though I've only tried one other - AOR Advanced B complex, which makes me decidedly sleepy.

    So two questions remain for me: 1. How did you recover while taking B-Right and Country Life Ab12, both with folic acid, when you have strong paradoxical folate deficiency, (again, not questioning the existence of your paradoxical folate deficiency)?; 2. Do you recommend eliminating supplements with folic acid, just to be safe, (or is there a way to know if one has PFD?), and if so, what brands of Bcom and Ab12 are you using now?
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Rockt,

    That was what I was trying to answer. I'll be glad to say it another way. With the b-right and Country Life Dibencozide I healed except for the cheilitis, IBS, MCV, peeling finger tips and some other things that came and went less definitely. About 90% of the healing went on unhindered.

    B-right is fine if a person does a Metafolin trial A-B with/without folic acid and see if there is any effect on at least a few symptoms..

    My healing index (a scale) let's call it, stabilized at 8 with folic acid and food folate (without garden). With Metafolin and folic acid about 8.5. With metafolin and folinic acid about 7 and dropping and with Glutathione it was at about 4 and dropping like a rock when I stopped that trial. After geting all of that out of my system and on Metafolin alone with food folate (withy garden) it stabilized at about 9 with cheilitis, fingertip peeling and IBS coming and actually going away completely at times. In the early days so many things changed so fast it was hard to know what was what except that those never went away but did wax and wane somewhat, in a range. The range gets shifted.

    The body has a triage system and some things get taken care of and some don't. Only the glutathione introduced me to a severe or "hard" folate deficiency. It affected way more symptoms way more severely. The folinic acid looked like it was heading that direction but I stopped the test in a week instead of 6 weeks. Folic acid wasn't as severe.

    B-right has various active components that can make a significant difference themselves such as pantethene, p-5-p and so on for some people.
  9. Rockt

    Rockt Senior Member

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    Thanks Freddd.

    Well, I do have severe dry skin and scalp. Have had it for years. Gets a little better in the summer, but never perfect. Maybe it's folic acid?

    OK, so what Bcom does not have folic acid?
  10. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    I don't know any other with metafolin except the two mentioned earlier in this thread. I think there are multivitamins without any form of folate for those with cancer.
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    I found omega3 oils, I take about 2000mg/day of active components plus carrier and all my skin dryness went away. Also, all my skin problems improved within a year of starting mb12.
  12. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Have you missed my questions at post #6 Freddd? :angel:

    Thx!
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI gu3vara,

    Also, I was looking at my diet and realized that the almond milk I drink in the morning contains about 50% of the rda for cyanocobalamin.

    What about folic acid?

    The meds are things I have run across from time to time like methyltrexate and metaformin if I remember right. There are a bunch of them and I will start making a list. Most of them are used in cancer therapies.
  14. gu3vara

    gu3vara Senior Member

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    Apparently they don't put folic acid in it, I'm gonna be careful with that too.

    I will look for a brand not fortified anyway, think the rest of my diet is ok.

    Thx!
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Gu3vara,

    A small amount of cycocbl, like 3 mcg or whatever is very probably completely irrelevent in all this.
  16. snowathlete

    snowathlete

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    If it was light here i would take a photo and show you what a state my once lovely garden is now in Fred.
    Glad you are able to garden again. I hope one day i will be able to as well, it was one of the only things i did to un-stress.

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