A histamine question

[Jimbo39]

Is the pro-histamine part of fermented food simply the bacteria?

I'm certainly no expert but my gut tells me it's the fermentation process not the bacteria that causes a histamine reaction. This is unfortunate because fermented foods are helpful for heathy gut flora.

I seem to tolerate moderate amounts. It's kind of a catch 22. You need it to help your good bacteria combate histamine but too much causes a reaction.

Have you been tested for DAO?

 

[alicec]

why increasing B12 led to a histamine reaction?

As well as the possibilities indicated by @Gondwanaland, don't forget the possibility that increasing B12 increased need for folate. Here is a relevant post from Rich.

 

[alicec]

it's not something I want to play with.

I scrupulously avoided copper for a long time but in the end discovered it is something I seem to have depleted. Supplementing (balanced by about 10 x zinc) has been really important for me.

 

[alicec]

Is the pro-histamine part of fermented food simply the bacteria?

First I am no histamine expert and while I did have some transient histamine sensitivities when I was having a lot of gut problems, essentially it is not an issue for me. However at one time I was fairly salicylate sensitive and that has many similarities, especially the threshold problem I discuss below.

It is the products of fermentation which are the main problem with fermented foods. These might be histamine and other biogenic amines or substances which inhibit enzymes which process biogenic amines.

How long do build-ups of histamine take?

Your analogy of the overflowing bucket is a good one. Essentially it is a threshold problem and everyone has an individual threshold above which they experience problems.

I can't give you details about processing timelines but essentially it is relatively slow so histamines accumulate. It is the totality of consumption over time that brings an individual close to the threshold. Then they eat something that contains sufficient histamine to take them over the threshold and they think I have a problem with x food.

On another occasion, when previous consumption means they are further from the threshold, they can eat x and not have a problem because it didn't take them over the threshold. Now they are confused. Is x a problem or not?

So the general idea is to eat habitually in a way that keeps you well away from your threshold so that occasional encounters with relatively high foods will not be a problem. This can be very difficult for people with very low thresholds.

It can take a long time to get levels down to well below threshold. I suspect this is what low histamine chef is referring to in saying it takes months to get well.

Once the big reactions have died down, how completely can one typically eventually begin eating histamine foods again? Do most people make a full or only partial recovery?

Nutritionists and allergists who deal with these types of food intolerances generally accept that the basic problem is insoluble, or we don't really know how to influence it, so we can just manage it by habitually eating in ways that keep the individual well below his/her particular threshold. Various enzyme supplements might be partially helpful in management but essentially the threshold is unchangeable.

Personally I don't believe this, especially since I am no longer salicylate intolerant.

There can be many reasons for the poor processing which leads to intolerance, and maybe some of it is impossible to influence, but a big source is gut dysbiosis and other digestive problems. This is something we can influence to at least some extent.

There are probably other things that are worth trying to influence thresholds but I don't really know much about them. Working on the gut is what has helped me.

 

[Jimbo39]

As well as the possibilities indicated by @Gondwanaland, don't forget the possibility that increasing B12 increased need for folate. Here is a relevant post from Rich.

Thanks for the post. I can see how folate reduces histamine. When I increased B12 while not adequately increasing folate, did it cause a folate deficiency?

 

[alicec]

did it cause a folate deficiency?

Essentially yes.

 

[Jimbo39]

I wonder if a lot of my brain fog has to do with high histamine? Histamine causes excitability in the brain and may even be a neurotoxin in high amounts. When I take B6 (a potent antihistamine) my brain immediately becomes clear.

Maybe those of us with with chronic infections (in my case EVB, and gut inflammation) are producing way too much histamine so it doesn't take much to "overflow the bucket". Or maybe high histamine prevents our immune system from working properly allowing opportunist bacteria/viruses to proliferate?

It seems any food (meat or vegetable) that has "aged" releases histamine. Freezing doesn't seem to help and in the case of some meats, it seems to increase it. I wonder if the advent of "modern" packaging and processing of food has caused histamine intolerance and maybe even autoimmune disorders?

I take licorice and aloe vera because it soothes my gut but maybe it's addressing the histamine problem as they are also antihistamines.

Zinc and copper suppresses histamine release so I'm looking forward to see what it does.

 

[mermaid]

As a newcomer to understanding histamine issues, I thought @alicec's description of the histamine issues accords well with what I know so far too.

I now realise that I have had histamine problems for years, without knowing that is what they were until this year. Now I know, I am more aware, and am managing them a lot better. I had worked on my gut for years, and thought that I was doing pretty well on that score. I clearly have a mild case of histamine intolerance compared with some, but was tipped over into a slightly more severe time this summer when I had a serious eye op, and this could have been a combination of the stress and the eye drops at the time, so that even my careful diet did not keep me safe.

I have slowly worked on it, since then, and it's calmed down a lot. I can now eat the occasional high histamine food again without problems. I do eat most vegetables, but have to take care with fruit . I can eat apples and pears OK though. I have to be aware that circumstances may change though, and with Christmas food I am pushing the boundaries too much probably.

 

[Jimbo39]

@mermaid I'm a newcomer too. Maybe there are those like @Hip who can shed more light on this subject.

From my limited understanding, it appears that stress from chronic infections (or other stressors) causes inflammation which causes a vicious cycle (stress>inflammation>more stress). It seems mast cells can become hyperactive where it responds to very little stimuli.

Antihistamines can help in preventing histamine release but from what I've read the best approach is to take or eat things that "calm" mast cells.

Quecetin seems to come up in a lots of sites:

Quercetin downregulates the expression of histidine decarboxylase, the enzyme that modifies histidine, an amino acid, to histamine. Quercetin also inhibits release of histamine, prostaglandins and leukotrienes. Additionally, it decreases production and release of IL-1b, IL-6, IL-8 and TNF. Quercetin was reported to be stronger and more effective at inhibiting mediator release than cromolyn when taken prophylactically, although this has not yet been judged as true by any regulatory body. Quercetin is found naturally in a number of foods, such as red onion, sweet potato, kale, and many others. It is also found in small quantities in teas made with Camellia sinensis. Rutin is a derivative of quercetin, found in citrus fruits, apples, cranberries and others.

There's also this about Chinese Tulips:

Homoisoflavonone decreases production of PGD2 and leukotrienes B4 and C4 by downregulating COX-2 and 5-LO, the enzymes that make these molecules from arachidonic acid. It also interferes directly with the manufacture of IL-6 and TNF in mast cells stimulated by IgE (the traditional allergy pathway). Homoisoflavonone can be isolated from bulbs of Cremastra appendiculata, which is commonly called Chinese tulip despite being an orchid. Chinese tulip is commonly used in Chinese medicine. Related homoisoflavonoids, extracted from the tuber of Ophiopogon japonicas, mondograss, are anti-inflammatories, possibly by interfering with COX-2 and 5-LO.

So it seems a two prong approach is needed: calm mast cells and reduce inflammation.

 

[Johnmac]

I'm certainly no expert but my gut tells me it's the fermentation process not the bacteria that causes a histamine reaction. This is unfortunate because fermented foods are helpful for heathy gut flora.

I seem to tolerate moderate amounts. It's kind of a catch 22. You need it to help your good bacteria combate histamine but too much causes a reaction.

Have you been tested for DAO?

I don't know about the former, but I'm the same as you in the need for moderation with probiotic foods. Dr Jeff Leach (American Gut Project) never eats any, & claims he has better gut flora than his colleagues who do: the reason being that he eats fibrous, prebiotic foods in quite some quantity & variety.

I will have to keep to low quantities of fermented foods now, because they are the only foods that cause me histamine ODs. But low amounts are probably all I need IMO; the main game appears to be eating enough prebiotic food.

No DAO test yet, but maybe in the future.

 

[Johnmac]

First I am no histamine expert and while I did have some transient histamine sensitivities when I was having a lot of gut problems, essentially it is not an issue for me. However at one time I was fairly salicylate sensitive and that has many similarities, especially the threshold problem I discuss below.

It is the products of fermentation which are the main problem with fermented foods. These might be histamine and other biogenic amines or substances which inhibit enzymes which process biogenic amines.



Your analogy of the overflowing bucket is a good one. Essentially it is a threshold problem and everyone has an individual threshold above which they experience problems.

I can't give you details about processing timelines but essentially it is relatively slow so histamines accumulate. It is the totality of consumption over time that brings an individual close to the threshold. Then they eat something that contains sufficient histamine to take them over the threshold and they think I have a problem with x food.

On another occasion, when previous consumption means they are further from the threshold, they can eat x and not have a problem because it didn't take them over the threshold. Now they are confused. Is x a problem or not?

So the general idea is to eat habitually in a way that keeps you well away from your threshold so that occasional encounters with relatively high foods will not be a problem. This can be very difficult for people with very low thresholds.

It can take a long time to get levels down to well below threshold. I suspect this is what low histamine chef is referring to in saying it takes months to get well.


Nutritionists and allergists who deal with these types of food intolerances generally accept that the basic problem is insoluble, or we don't really know how to influence it, so we can just manage it by habitually eating in ways that keep the individual well below his/her particular threshold. Various enzyme supplements might be partially helpful in management but essentially the threshold is unchangeable.

Personally I don't believe this, especially since I am no longer salicylate intolerant.

There can be many reasons for the poor processing which leads to intolerance, and maybe some of it is impossible to influence, but a big source is gut dysbiosis and other digestive problems. This is something we can influence to at least some extent.

There are probably other things that are worth trying to influence thresholds but I don't really know much about them. Working on the gut is what has helped me.

Thanks a lot @alicec. Sorry for late reply - I've been in Cambodia (where my gut-repair project got its biggest stress-test to date).

In the interim experience seems to have confirmed your explanation of the threshold, & the slow build-up/degradation of histamines. I might have had mild histamine symptoms for years (to be tested), but the big recent crashes were caused by my own CFU-dense yogurts. Now I've been off them for 10 days, symptoms have largely gone. But that took a week. And in that week, many histaminic foods tipped me into symptoms again - things that normally wouldn't. I had a few moments of wondering if I'd ever be able to eat 'x food' again - but now I can eat anything but the ferments.

I'm a bit puzzled as to why my gut has been improving so much (I survived Cambodia almost unscathed, & can munch raw garlic & onion now - whereas 3 months ago my FODMAP sensitivity would have given me bad gut symptoms), but the histamine problem arose anyway.

But it's not such a big issue, as I'm fairly sure that keeping fermented foods to small quantities will keep the histamine bucket from filling again. (Two weeks ago one tsp of my yogurt knocked me flat for a day: but I'm not expecting that to happen again.)

My big lesson for fixing FODMAP is to use L. rhamnosus yogurt (the best-studied gut-fixer) + lots of other strains - variety being key.

I've read some Chris Kresser stuff on histamines lately, & he agrees with you that the problem can be improved of retired.

I'd like to get my hands on more of the prebiotic foods you mentioned in an earlier post (you listed aloe vera inner leaf powder, larch extract, baobab powder, psyllium, seaweeds, potato starch). My health food store has never heard of most of them: are there more? Psyllium & mushrooms I can get: but are mushrooms really as good as (say) acacia gum?

Thanks again for your help.

 

[wonderoushope]

Your analogy of the overflowing bucket is a good one. Essentially it is a threshold problem and everyone has an individual threshold above which they experience problems.

I can't give you details about processing timelines but essentially it is relatively slow so histamines accumulate. It is the totality of consumption over time that brings an individual close to the threshold. Then they eat something that contains sufficient histamine to take them over the threshold and they think I have a problem with x food.

On another occasion, when previous consumption means they are further from the threshold, they can eat x and not have a problem because it didn't take them over the threshold. Now they are confused. Is x a problem or not?

So the general idea is to eat habitually in a way that keeps you well away from your threshold so that occasional encounters with relatively high foods will not be a problem. This can be very difficult for people with very low thresholds.

It can take a long time to get levels down to well below threshold. I suspect this is what low histamine chef is referring to in saying it takes months to get well

Oh my this makes so much sense. I once had a dietician tell me this and I sort of ignored it/didn't really pay attention to it, but lately I have been observing the phenomena where I have my bucket limit threshold and then bam everything goes crazy. And yes I get confused if X food is a problem because I can tolerate lots of foods up to a point and then everything goes haywire. I've done eliminations diets in the past, but with varying results each time and so have no clear way to know which foods are a problem, but I think my problem is I have a threshold limit with a lot of foods. Just you mentioning this, helps remind me that I need to continue on with keeping things below the threshold. Thank you.

I had a really bad reaction to psyllium husks the other week which I understand is a prebiotic, but my gut had been playing up for a few days before (probably from consuming high histamine foods). I might try to reintroduce it in smaller quantities when my gut has settled.

 

[alicec]

I'd like to get my hands on more of the prebiotic foods you mentioned

I get most of them from iherb.

There are many possibilities, I just tried to stick to things that were fairly unrefined, with a variety of different prebiotic types.

but are mushrooms really as good as (say) acacia gum?

Different not better or worse. Here are some brief notes on various prebiotic sources. As usual I ran out of energy to complete the list but it gives an idea of variety.

aloe vera inner leaf predominantly acetylated glucomannan
benefibre is hydrolysed wheat dextrin (RS4)
acacia gum is predominantly arabinogalactan
baobab powder is a source of pectin, polyglucuronic-galacturonic, polyphenols and other fibres
larch is a source of arabinogalactans - good for bifido - reduces NH3
psyllium is a source of arabinoxylans
raw potato starch is a source of RS2 - increases butyrate, acetate, propionate production in vivo
Artinia is a source of insoluble β1-4 N-acetyl D-glucosamine chitin-glucan - liked by Roseburia and other cluster XIVa
PGX is a source of glucomannan, glucomannan/glucuronate; mannuronic/guluronic acids
Fucoidin (from seaweed) is predominantly sulfated polyfucose
Mushrooms are a source of polymers of N-acetylglucosmine (chitin), βglucans and mannans
fructans (inulin/FOS) enhance Ca uptake in gut;
Pectins increase acetate production in vivo

 

[Gondwanaland]

why increasing B12 led to a histamine reaction?

Still on the page of hyperuricemia, hyperuricemic individuals have elevated plasma glutamate

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7424621
hyperuricemia is more often accompanied by excessive excretion of uric acid, diminished excretion of ammonia and abnormally high plasma glutamic acid.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM196910022811405
The increase in glutamate may be causally related to the overproduction of purines in gout.

So, while high dose folate inhibits xanthine oxidase, purines are still being produced in high amount. I wonder what happens with all the purines created by folate since they can't turn into uric acid?

 

[alicec]

I wonder what happens with all the purines created by folate since they can't turn into uric acid?

They are used in DNA and RNA synthesis.

 

[Gondwanaland]

They are used in DNA and RNA synthesis.

And will pyrimidines be enough to use up all the purines?

 

[alicec]

There are many regulatory mechanisms controlling purine and pyrimidine turnover. If more purines appear as a result of inhibition of xanthine oxidase, this would trigger one of the other control mechanisms.

How efficient these processes are in any individual is a different question.

 

[Aerowallah]

Interesting discussion. A few observations. I come at my post-viral CFS laden with lead and mercury. The usual pills and precursors for CFS elevated my glutamate and histamines. Stopping them and avoiding high histamine / glutamate foods and daily CEs reduced insomnia and that peculiar high histamine nerve firing that rapidly travels the body.

Then I tried live culture kefir. After three miraculous months of energy recovery I started crashing within minutes of eating it, even amounts as low as a tbsp. So I took another year off probiotics. In that time attempts at a methylation protocol brought back sleep loss. Continuing CEs and diatomaceous earth helped further the symptoms of what I think is in essence a long slow detox with cyclical ups and downs.

I started live culture kefir again, and again experienced an amazing return of energy but this time am sustaining it. Histamine itching has not returned, but now have topical itchy skin on legs and ankles after showering--very different from the kind of itching I felt during histamine flares, that was improved by benadryl.

No one seems to mention the liberation of toxic metals during the die off of pathogenic yeasts and bacteria, which I believe is responsible for most of my symptoms. BTW all yogurts, and powdered culture kefir, seem to be too weak to incur detox symptoms, but will bring back histamine itching if I eat enough of it. All through this I do not tolerate dairy and never have, but tolerate strong live culture kefir (I do secondary fermentation to it) which, I suppose, has relatively little lactose and whatever else fermentation adapts.

I wonder how much of the negative effects from probiotics people experience from kefir are due to die-off from stealth bacteria and toxic metals becoming unbound from these pathogens. We are drenched in metals. Just read there are high levels of hexavalent chromium now in the drinking water of over 200 million Americans. Also do not understand how pre-biotics do any more than offer what good bacteria is left in our gut a meal, like the weak transient bacteria in yogurt or powdered culture kefir. They may feed good bacteria, but they do not kill or recolonise bad. I ate trainloads of organic yogurt and leafy greens for decades before my CFS flare and still had pathogenic yeast overgrowth.

For me, anyway, live culture kefir and kimchi are medicine after an initial period of quieting down elevated stress hormones, including histamines. But certain foods esp. unfermented or weakly fermented dairy will bring back histamines. The live culture kefir does cause standard detox symptoms (with cyclical severity) like fluiness, brain fog, skin breakouts, flu aches and pains in extremities, and death breath, but these are lessened in MINUTES with diatomaceous earth. And CEs continue to improve liver clearance for whatever I'm unearthing after a lifetime in this filthy toxic country!

 

[Jimbo39]

My big lesson for fixing FODMAP is to use L. rhamnosus yogurt (the best-studied gut-fixer) + lots of other strains - variety being key.

I read that L. rhamnous, B infantis, and B. Longum suppresses histamine.

 

[Jimbo39]

So it would seem that adding MB12 without adequate folate will promote or even cause a histamine reaction. I wonder if the resulting cortisol response may have something to do with the stimulating effect we so often feel with B12?