Severe ME Day of Understanding and Remembrance: Aug. 8, 2017
Determined to paper the Internet with articles about ME, Jody Smith brings some additional focus to Severe Myalgic Encephalomyelitis Day of Understanding and Remembrance on Aug. 8, 2017 ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

A high-fat diet is associated with endotoxemia originating from the gut

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by adreno, Jul 14, 2017.

  1. adreno

    adreno PR activist

    Messages:
    4,738
    Likes:
    9,902
    Endotoxemia, and LPS in the bloodstream, has been postulated as implicated in ME/CFS. It seems a high fat diet can exacerbate leaky gut and endotoxemia:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22326433
     
    MEMum, ljimbo423, Emootje and 2 others like this.
  2. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,181
    Likes:
    767
    are they referring to high saturated fat, or any type of fat?

    They say "typical american diet" so I'm guessing saturated
     
    MEMum, lafarfelue and Manganus like this.
  3. adreno

    adreno PR activist

    Messages:
    4,738
    Likes:
    9,902
    Yes, the "Western-style diet" was higher in saturated fat. This can be seen in the full text:

    http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(12)00158-8/fulltext


    Another study similarly found saturated fat to be the worst:
    https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-10-6
     
    MEMum, ljimbo423 and ebethc like this.
  4. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

    Messages:
    395
    Likes:
    590
    United States, New Hampshire
    Those are incredible changes in LPS levels, for just a diet change! I guess my mom was right when she said, eat your veggies.;)
     
  5. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,181
    Likes:
    767
    small sample size... only 8 subjects... I guess the sad reality is that if there's no big drug money to be made, there's no budget for testing... Interesting, though, and I totally believe this is relevant to me personally... saturated fat is hard for me to process
     
    justy likes this.
  6. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,333
    Likes:
    2,490
    Australia
    Why single out saturated fat as the culprit? What about the other differences - eg, just at a glance, without delving into detail - the "prudent" diet contained more than twice as much fibre. Maybe this had a beneficial effect?
     
    Learner1 and Valentijn like this.
  7. NelliePledge

    NelliePledge plodder

    Messages:
    543
    Likes:
    2,456
    What about excess sugar and hydrogenated fat, processed meat in a western style diet. What type of sat fat and carbs were they eating. Couldn't see anything about what they were actually eating other than the split between carbs protein and fat.
     
  8. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,181
    Likes:
    767
    yeah..I had the same thought... However, the saturated fat part is interesting... W the low sample, it's more directional data than conclusive, IMO... Would love to see more.
     
  9. adreno

    adreno PR activist

    Messages:
    4,738
    Likes:
    9,902
    Everything is of course complex when it comes to diets. However, there are several studies that show increased endotoxemia after hyperlipidic intakes. There are probably other variables, like fiber intake etc, that affects the extent of this. You are going to have to do your own digging if you want to know more. A more comprehensive discussion is available here:
    https://www.ocl-journal.org/articles/ocl/pdf/2016/03/ocl160009-s.pdf
     
    justy, ljimbo423 and ebethc like this.
  10. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,333
    Likes:
    2,490
    Australia
    I had a vague recollection that I had read something exactly relevant to this question when I posted yesterday, but couldn't quite dredge up the reference.

    Here it is.

    It is not so much the high fat intake which is important in provoking endotoxemia, but the context in which it occurs - namely the abundance of certain gut bacteria such as Bifidobacterium.

    In this respect, variation in dietary fibre between the two groups being compared is a significant confounding factor in interpretation of the results.
     
    Learner1, MEMum and Valentijn like this.
  11. adreno

    adreno PR activist

    Messages:
    4,738
    Likes:
    9,902
    It is good to know that bifidobacteria can mitigate the endotoxemia from high fat meals. However, there are still concerns. How many of us have a fully functional gut microbiome, with plenty of bifidobacteria? How many do compose their meals to always include prebiotic fibers that target bifidobacteria?

    While no one is saying that fat should be avoided, I must say it is likely prudent to utilize a low to normal fat diet with plenty of fibers. There is certainly a lot of paleo advocacy out there touting the benefits of gobbling down coconut oil and what have you, which might not be the best for ME/CFS.
     
    justy and ebethc like this.
  12. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,181
    Likes:
    767
    is there a blood test for endotoxemia (elevated serum LPS)?
     
  13. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,333
    Likes:
    2,490
    Australia
    Such considerations might be a wake-up call to pay more attention to the gut and make a serious effort to improve it.

    My point is that the study attributes the blame to saturated fat and so joins a plethora of studies which condemn fat on dubious grounds. They don't tell the whole story.

    The whole fat literature is so fraught and so lacking in good unconfounded studies that I long ago came to my own conclusions about what to do about dietary fat.

    Quality is far more important than quantity, and in any case, the latter is very much an individual thing. Some people will do better on less fat, some need more.

    Avoid processed foods and damaged fats, never heat polyunsaturated oils, eat a range of natural fat-containing foods and find your own level of fat intake.

    I don't go out of my way to eat fat but I don't restrict it either. I have naturally gravitated to a moderate fat intake.
     
    NelliePledge, pamojja and Valentijn like this.
  14. justy

    justy Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,133
    Likes:
    11,079
    U.K
    This one?

    .http://www.redlabs.com/ifa
     
    ebethc likes this.
  15. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,181
    Likes:
    767
    what are the prebiotics that increase bifidobacteria?
     
  16. adreno

    adreno PR activist

    Messages:
    4,738
    Likes:
    9,902
    I don't think any normal person knows which fibers support which bacteria. The best advice that can be given is probably to include a range of fibers from different sources in your diet, to increase diversity. That is, if you have any/much of the needed bacteria left in your gut.
     
    ljimbo423 and ebethc like this.
  17. Eastman

    Eastman Senior Member

    Messages:
    243
    Likes:
    192
    Bifidogenic potato starch

    That's raw potato starch, to be clear.

    I agree with adreno though that it is probably better to include a range of fibers to increase microbial diversity.
     
    ebethc likes this.
  18. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,181
    Likes:
    767
  19. adreno

    adreno PR activist

    Messages:
    4,738
    Likes:
    9,902
    Yes. The problem with potato starch (and many other prebiotics) is that they also target a lot of bacteria that we don't want increased. I've seen many reports by PwME not tolerating prebiotics. The thing is if you already have severe dysbiosis, prebiotics is of limited use.
     
    ebethc and ljimbo423 like this.
  20. ljimbo423

    ljimbo423 Senior Member

    Messages:
    395
    Likes:
    590
    United States, New Hampshire
    I think that makes good sense. I avoid prebiotics for that very reason. There seems to conflicting advice on whether they help or hurt, when one has serious dysbiosis. Most of the diets recommended for SIBO/dysbiosis like the gaps diet, specific carb diet etc, have very little if any prebiotics in them.

    I have found in treating dysbiosis in the last 4 months or so, a big relief in symptoms and I have been avoiding prebiotics like a plague. I'm afraid I could undo weeks or months of work in a very short time frame. As long as I continue to improve prebiotics are off the table.:D

    Jim
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page