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A gluten protein normally is too big in order to pass the intestinal barrier!

Discussion in 'Addressing Biotoxin, Chemical & Food Sensitivities' started by guest, Jul 12, 2010.

  1. guest

    guest Guest

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    Everywhere we hear about how bad gluten or wheat are because they cause leaky gut and are highly immune-reactive.

    Guess what, as I understood this study, gluten is not the culprit, zonulin is. They found increased levels of zonulin in patients with celiac disease. These levels lead to a leaky gut and this is the only reason why gluten can pass the intestine barrier and cross into the bloodstream where it is attacked by antibodies.

    In a healthy(!) person the zonulin levels are normal and big proteins like gluten CANNOT pass the intestinal barrier. These people CAN eat gluten and will not have any problems!

    But how can gluten pass? This was what Prof Fassano asked himself. How can gluten pass the barrier if it normally is much too big. The answer: Zonulin opens the barrier so now even big proeins like gluten get through and get into contact with blood.

    Next to antivirals, zonulininhibitors seem to be my biggest hope regarding treatment of CFS.

    Full abstract:

     
  2. IntuneJune

    IntuneJune Senior Member

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    Zonulin

    Never heard of zonulin.

    Wonderful news if this could be controlled. Any idea what a zonulin inhibitor would be?

    Thank you!

    June
     
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  3. guest

    guest Guest

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  4. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Yes...very interesting...

    Very interesting Diesel -- you're certainly working hard trying to sort this all out. I too had never heard of zonulin, or it's affects on the gut.

    I've mentioned VSL#3, the pricey probiotic, in other posts. It was shown to digest gliaden when added to wheat dough. I just googled 'zonulin', which brought me back to the same story...

    "This study confirmed proteins extracted from dough pre-treated with VSL#3 released less zonulin, the protein that controls tight junctions between intestinal lining cells. Zonulin is believed to be important in the development of celiac disease. It increases permeability of leaky gut that predisposes to celiac and non-celiac gluten toxicity. Less F-actin reorganization within the cells also was noted. F-actin controls intestinal permeability."

    http://thefooddoc.blogspot.com/2007/02/probiotic-vsl3-breaks-down-toxic.html

    So...perhaps (just a guess here) one of the reasons that gluten intolerance develops is because of microbial imbalances -- not enough 'good' probiotic bacteria, or not enough of certain strains of bacteria.:confused:

    There's more discussion of zonulin and other possible factors, like oxalates, on this celiac page:

    http://www.celiac.com/gluten-free/topic/47795-zonulin-leaky-gut-and-gluten-sensitivity/

    Thanks Diesel,

    d.
     
  5. Karin

    Karin

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  6. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    Enzymes for gluten / casein intolerance...?

    Have any of you tried digestive enzymes designed to break down gluten (and/or casein) like Petizyde or this new one called GlutenEase? Peptizyde seems to work okay (I tried it a couple years ago) but the latter seems to be getting some glowing reviews, with some cautions:

    http://www.enzymestuff.com/basicsproductguidelines.htm

    "GlutenEase (Enzymedica) - very effective product targeting both protein and carbohydrate portions of gluten and casein. Effective enough to replace GFCF diet for many people. Not intended for celiacs to leave gluten-free diet, but acts as 'safety net' for accidental exposures. Lessens symptoms for many with celiac. Does not cause adverse reactions some other gluten-targeting enzyme products do in celiac."

    (the site was started by a woman with autistic kids, she doesn't sell the products)

    I also tried "No-Fenol", which greatly helps digest phenolic/high salicylate foods, again 2+ years ago, off and on probably going back about 5 years, and it seemed in hindsight to help a great deal. Was definitely doing a lot better than I am now, and again in hindsight, have been inadvertantly eating a lot of foods during the past 9 months or so that are very high in sals/phenols.

    Anyway, just wanted to add these possibilities to the mix. Apparently some folks can use them for a few months, then (I suppose as the gut heals?) they require less, and some are even able to stop taking them. Just wish all this stuff wasn't so pricey -- especially that VSL3.

    That's a shame that you don't have access to it Diesel. Sorry, I've forgotten...are you in the UK? Was it actually covered by your health care provider?

    d.
     
  7. guest

    guest Guest

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    Dannybex,

    that's funny, I just watched the 68 minute video from Prof Fasano about leaky gut and autism. He spoke about gluten, the human body does not have any enzymes that break down gluten. You can put gluten into a glas filled with gastric acid and all other juices and bacteria in our body. 8 hours later the gluten will still be there. Put your finger into the glas and within 30 seconds it will be reduced tothe bone. I didn't know that there were enzymes you can use but I cannot imagine that they break down all the gluten.

    The next thing that was very disappointing for me, a gluten/casein free diet based on studies and expectations should only help about 20% of autistic children, not more.
    Gluten increases zonulin production by the way. I didn't understand the difference between a healthy person and an ill. The healthy person produces less zonulin of course but his immune system also attacks the gluten in another/correct way.

    They stopped selling the VSL#3 here in Germany.

    What I missed in the video where answers about the following questions:

    What reduces zonulin?
    Why does eating gluten lead to problems in some people? Do they have a certain gene for that?
    Is eating gluten problematic even if you are healthy?

    n8
     
  8. Karin

    Karin

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    Diesel,

    Don't forget that Fasano is new to the autism world. He has a lot to learn there. I would NOT rely on these gluten studies on autistic children. Very limited studies on a very limited number of children, and of course flawed. And all the political crap. I don't know where he got this 20% figure but as far as I am concerned, it is crap.

    Karin
     
  9. IntuneJune

    IntuneJune Senior Member

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    On line, VSL#3 60 caps 49.50, 30 pks 84.99.

    Not cheap, for sure, recommending 1-2, 1-4 daily.

    June
     
  10. guest

    guest Guest

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    Yes, the studies are not very reliable. Do you think the number is higher? Fir me it looks that many mothers put their autistic children on a gluten/casein free diet but I do not know if it helps their children. Some insight from someone of the autistic community would be nice.
     
  11. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Deisel,
    The Autism Research Institute surveys parents about biomedical interventions, and the last survey suggested 66% of approx 2500 children improved on a gluten free/casein free diet. Gluten free on its own doesn't seem to have been surveyed.*

    (I know several people gluten free or gluten and casein free and the quality of their diet varies a lot, so there are other variables.)

    I was wheat free, then gluten and dairy free, nowdays all grain free (still avoiding dairy), and I've noticed improvements at every step.

    :) Anne.

    * Link to study (see bottom half of the page for the ARI 2008 study

    http://www.gfcfdiet.com/dietsurveysept2.htm
     
  12. Frank

    Frank Senior Member

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    gluten-free can also mean you avoid other things found in bread, beer and spaghetti. I'm thinking of fungal byproducts. As i understand the zonulin is also a byproduct of a micro-organism?
     
  13. Athene

    Athene ihateticks.me

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    Diesel thank you for starting this fascinating thread, and thank you everyone else for the other really useful info.

    I just read that zonulin is expressed by the cholera pathogen, which would explain why I developed extremely leaky gut after having cholera. I already had gluten allergy but it all became far worse. I asked so many doctors what are the long term effects of cholera on the intestine and they all went blank. I told them it had damaged my intestine in a permanent way and I wanted to understand how, as I was sure that was the key to improving the situation. They all took the attitude that I should be grateful I was alive, and leave it at that.

    It's REALLY nice to have an answer at long last.
     
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  14. Karin

    Karin

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    Thanks, that's what I was going to post. 2/3 of good response seems right to me.
     
  15. xrayspex

    xrayspex Senior Member

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    mutaflor from germany and now canada I think, research that gut supplement, hands down best one I have ever taken, can tolerate a lot more foods after 3 months of that and seem less sensitive in other ways too, I still avoid wheat but have been purposely occasionally trying a little for first time in like 8 yrs and nothing bad happens like in the past....but am not going to tempt fate too much
     
  16. Athene

    Athene ihateticks.me

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  17. cigana

    cigana Senior Member

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    Hi Diesel,

    Thanks for posting this. I will try to answer your questions best I can just to give some input:

    Why does eating gluten lead to problems in some people?

    I think he was saying it is only a problem if the barrier is opened and that this mainly occurs as a result of dysbiosis. So only people with dysbiosis will have a problem.

    Do they have a certain gene for that?

    Only in the sense that the microbiome can be considered an extended genome.

    Is eating gluten problematic even if you are healthy?

    He said it wasn't a problem for healthy people.

    The way I see it is even if gluten itself isn't enough on it's own to open the barrier if you are healthy, we should still not consume gluten (even if we are not gluten sensitive) because gluten only causes more zonulin to be released. Since PWC's have dysbiosis causing zonulin release, we don't want to add in gluten that will only lead to further zonulin.

    I think he was implying (though he didn't say explicitly) that dysbiosis is the cause for celiac in the sense that dysbiosis is the major cause of the barrier opening and then the gluten can get to the bloodstream and provoke an immune response.

    I have attached the Scientific American article he wrote on this.

    Cig
     

    Attached Files:

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