The 12th Invest in ME Research Conference June, 2017, Part 2
MEMum presents the second article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

A few theories based on recent findings

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS Discussion' started by AdamS, Apr 26, 2017.

  1. AdamS

    AdamS Senior Member

    Messages:
    260
    Likes:
    752
    Hi all, like many of us on here I read quite a lot about ME, mainly because I want to solve it, get better and go for a pint with all of you great people when i'm well! :D

    I decided to map out a few theories based on what i've been reading about energy metabolism over the past few weeks/months, I don't expect much of this to be new to you, but i've added my own spin on a few of the theories...hopefully it gets us talking and thinking of new ideas :thumbsup: All comments, criticism and ideas welcome!

    [​IMG]

    EDIT: I've also created a map of common serum contents, if it's the case as Davis, Fluge & Mella say that the problem is in ME/CFS patients' serum, then these are the areas we need to be searching. (These are from wikipedia, there may be some overlap).

    [​IMG]

    Cheers, Adam
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
    Izola, Mel9, pamojja and 22 others like this.
  2. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,505
    Likes:
    2,710
    I am in favor of 4 but that does not exclude the others.
     
    Chriswolf, Mel9 and GreyOwl like this.
  3. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,478
    Likes:
    7,571
    This looks great but you forgot the most common cause...... The BPS theory that it's all in our heads!

    I'm open to any theory given where we are but anything that centers around Krebs cycle blockage seems to be more on track. Theory 4 seems the least likely for me.
     
    AdamS likes this.
  4. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,751
    Likes:
    23,189
    ME/CFS might be a mix of different diseases that have in common substantial impairment of energy production.
     
    Mel9, Marky90, ErdemX and 8 others like this.
  5. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

    Messages:
    505
    Likes:
    481
    The Fluge & [Mella] also noted increased PPARĪ“.

    You mentioned FoxO1. Normally a lot of this would be mediated by FoxO1 and FoxO3. They act as the stress response program for the cell and dominate in starvation + increase lipolysis reliance. It was already posted that FoxO1 will increase PDK but so will FoxO3:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3354049/#bib5
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3486978/#__sec2title
    The problem is, almost any stress signal can set off FoxO, so it gives you no real information, and there is a little bit of conflicting info here and there w.r.t. CFS/ME. I think the repression of FoxO by Akt may be one part of why "mTor" activators seem to help but it's also possible for signal to "force" FoxO in spite of Akt.

    nandixon posted more specific other ways in which PDK might get ablated and mTor might help in the Fluge & Magella thread, the sphingolipid and S1P-related ideas, etc, I don't have the post links on hand. I am just trying to paint a general picture.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
    ukxmrv and AdamS like this.
  6. Jesse2233

    Jesse2233 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,611
    Likes:
    4,027
    Southern California
    These posts are great @AdamS

    From my own blood work I can attest something strange is happening with pyruvate and one or more Krebs cycle enzymes

    Looking forward to reading more discussion
     
    Wally, taniaaust1 and AdamS like this.
  7. AdamS

    AdamS Senior Member

    Messages:
    260
    Likes:
    752
    Yes, it would be cool to get @nandixon 's input.

    As far as the Sphingolipid findings go, Fluge & Mella said the following:

    I'm not sure how to interpret this, are they saying that lower ATP turnover results in decreases in sphingolipids etc? It's hard to tell.

    One thing that stands out to me is the above, something in ME/CFS serum is causing this, Davis said this too in his video. I've created a map of common serum contents below, i've also added it to my first post in the thread.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. A.B.

    A.B. Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,751
    Likes:
    23,189
    The evidence seems to point towards the factor x in blood being an antibody or some undiscovered chemical signal.
     
    GreyOwl and AdamS like this.
  9. wastwater

    wastwater Senior Member

    Messages:
    942
    Likes:
    640
    uk
    Could something cleave away or take out foxo function from the genome
    Foxo has many functions
     
  10. AdamS

    AdamS Senior Member

    Messages:
    260
    Likes:
    752
    @A.B.

    Agreed, just looking at the key serum contents, one thing stands out to me: Antigens

    I'm of the opinion that it is some kind of large antigen/molecule which triggers the initial insult/response and then on a very basic level the antibody/antibodies produced as a result of this antigen mean that every time we exert ourselves we trigger an immune response/cascade of reactions which leave us feeling terrible. All speculation of course, but that is my educated guess.

    The antigens/molecules which can trigger immune responses and activate lymphocytes are called immunogens apparently.

    >> EDIT: On reflection my comment about antigens is probably way off. I'm gunna leave it on here but it could be complete nonsense so i'd probably ignore it. As many have already said, best to leave it to the experts :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
  11. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

    Messages:
    505
    Likes:
    481
    I think the bold part is just increased beta-oxidation as compensation.

    The blood factor is discussed in the Ron Davis thread I think, they said it had to be [large] ([use search function]).

    nandixon is in best position to comment about the sphingolipids.

    Practically-speaking it's essential to survival to acute stressors via temporary activation [and controlling growth], so that's not a good idea. It's chronic overactivation that causes issues.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
  12. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,414
    Likes:
    427
    I really wonder abut a role for copper & iron dysregulation ? Also if accumulation of copper II is inhibiting sulfation?
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017
  13. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

    Messages:
    1,296
    Likes:
    3,624
    I used to be like you OP, but 30 years later i have learned with difficulty that sometimes i need to step back and let the pros do their jobs. Not to say we should not put our talents to work, i have weeded out many doctors and diagnoses that are nonsense but right now we have Dr Davis working in areas we can't even touch, so its my opinion that we should let them get the disease mechanism then put our talents to work on treating it.
    For example if they find a molecule is causing the hypometabolic state and its from the immune system we can put our energy to work on it, but if its caused by something from intestinal microbiota that would lead in a very different direction we need to attack. So right now they are making huge leaps and bounds (according to videos and recent posts from Mrs Dafoe) so i think we should save our energy for when we have their results then we can work on attacking it.
    If we use energy chasing a cause then we are repeating the work being done at a slower pace with fewer resources while burning ourselves doing it.
     
    Aroa and Jon_Tradicionali like this.
  14. AdamS

    AdamS Senior Member

    Messages:
    260
    Likes:
    752
    You're absolutely right, they are working on areas we can't even touch and i'm extremely grateful for their efforts.

    I agree with your logic about repeating work but to be honest the biggest threat to me currently is not ME but the isolation/depression it brings. Even if i'm moving at a slower pace than the researchers, there's something about trying to figure this illness out that gives me hope and pushes me through the day.
     
    Wally, tpsss, Honeywarrior and 16 others like this.
  15. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

    Messages:
    1,296
    Likes:
    3,624
    indeed, we owe them a great thanks


    I understand, and the isolation/depression is very hard :(
     
    Mel9, Aroa, BFitz89 and 1 other person like this.
  16. AdamS

    AdamS Senior Member

    Messages:
    260
    Likes:
    752
    @Alvin2 Yeah it's tough...we're all in the same boat though...huge respect to you for managing for 30 years. I hope the great work being done by Davis etc allows you to get some of those lost years back! :)
     
    Aroa likes this.
  17. Alvin2

    Alvin2 If humans were rational...

    Messages:
    1,296
    Likes:
    3,624
    Thank, for sure, i've become rather cynical with modern medicine, but i can navigate it like a champ
     
    AdamS likes this.
  18. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes:
    2,716
    Australia
    Davis said that, based on filtration studies, the serum factor(s) is large - probably a protein. This would rule out a number of @AdamS's categories.
     
    ukxmrv, Helen, Valentijn and 3 others like this.
  19. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes:
    2,716
    Australia
    You think that everyone with the disease has been exposed to this same mysterious antigen?
     
  20. Tunguska

    Tunguska Senior Member

    Messages:
    505
    Likes:
    481
    Shit I guess I misremembered, sorry. I'll edit my post [you can tell I'm not looking for it lol]
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2017

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page