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A few roadblocks and tips for methylation

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Deltrus, Apr 27, 2016.

  1. Deltrus

    Deltrus Senior Member

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    So I've been trying to get methylation going for a few years.

    Just taking a good multivitamin gives me temporary tinnitus, maybe made me feel a bit better but not much.

    Here's what worked for me to get me to respond methylation protocol vitamins.

    First stage: making the body accept magnesium, and hold it in. I have dystonia/pain in my right side shoulder, neck and hip. This is a signal that potassium and magnesium are very low in these regions.

    Classical magnesium stack: Taurine, b2, b6, Magnesium (elemental and citrate forms are my favorite). Boron and normal doses of most other nutrients are in my multivitamin. I'd take 100mg b2 and b6 several times a day, I'd take as much magnesium as I could without getting diarrhea, perhaps up to 1.5g a day. Atm I only have to take 400 mg a day.

    Roadblocks:

    - Low vitamin D status. I found that after taking magnesium, my body which was trying to expel magnesium through diarrhea soaked it up fairly fast. Wikipedia says:
    I can see a few sources on pubmed for this, none of them saying the exact magnitude of effect, but in my experience the magnitude is fairly high. I take 10k IU 2x a day.

    - Zinc. It turns out that if you have high magnesium, all your enzymes are working much faster than normal and you use up zinc very quickly until you high a certain homeostasis. I take 50 mg 3x a day.

    - Cellular anti-oxidants and glutathione cofactors. I noticed that even if I could get my body to accept magnesium, 4-10 hours later I would get.. ahem.. catastrophic diarrhea in which I would lose all my body's magnesium and all my muscles would get tight/painful again and I would feel terrible. It took me quite a while to figure out that vitamin E was what was needed, and from there I tried boosting glutathione. It turned out being a big success, I'd be able to absorb and hold on to even more magnesium than before.

    My theory on why vitamin E improves my magnesium retention so much? I think that perhaps intracellular taurine or b6 is being oxidized, which then causes the body to leech out magnesium rapidly. As for why 4-10 hours later I get high oxidation, I think it might be because methylation etc uses up a lot of nutrients and things can go out of balance, causing disruption of anti-oxidant systems. There are other possible theories on this.. but anyways vitamin E was absolutely essential for holding onto magnesium.

    Here is the site I found for glutathione cofactors: http://www.immunehealthscience.com/glutathione-cofactors.html

    I didn't look too deep, just used that list and it seems to work. I take 200 mg selenium 2x a day, 400 ie vitmamin E 3x a day, 1g vitamin C 4x a day, alpha lipoic acid 600 mg 2x a day.

    Also I found that taking too much zinc causes me to lose magnesium really fast. I can only take 50 mg spread out 3x a day. I believe the mechanism behind this may be because zinc is a powerful oxidant, so if you take too much then I go back to the same problem listed above. '

    - Probiotics. When you are first trying to get mangesium homeostatis right, you tend to get diarrhea, and your gut can become very alkaline. Minerals in high amounts are alkalizing. It is important NOT fast during high doses of magnesium, and it is important to take probiotics during your meals. If not, your gut bacteria get way out of wack, bad bacteria thrive on alkaline environments.

    - Drink lots of milk and eat lots of yogurt. Dairy is a source of phosphorous, potassium, it creates a lot of stomach acid so your gut is more acidic. Animals experience huge growth spurts while drinking milk so you know it is fairly nutritionally complete. I use it to fill in any gaps in my supplementation.

    Stage 2:

    The normal b12 protocols and cofactors, such as TMG, Sam-e, high dose methylb12 / adenosylb12. Jarrow b-right 3x a day. This part wasn't hard for me.

    Overall

    The hardest thing for me was getting my body saturated in magnesium and zinc. Zinc would do more harm than good with anti-oxidant systems working badly. Magnesium wouldn't absorb/stay absorbed without the proper ratio of magnesium:zinc, without vitamin D, vitamin E etc.

    The B vitamins weren't doing anything until I managed to get zinc and magnesium high. Zinc and magnesium are used in pretty much every metabolic pathways so I think getting them high is the foundation to health.

    So far I'm not getting huge motivational and well being improvements, but I've only started to get the gears turning for a few days.

    The biggest benefits atm are MUCH sharper vision, much better nervous system health/control, less pain, less tension.

    My fatigue has NOT drastically improved yet so this isn't like a recovery thread or anything, I just wanted to give some tips for people having trouble getting results with methylation. I'm responding much more to b vitamins etc now. Hopefully I start healing.
     
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  2. u&iraok

    u&iraok Senior Member

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    Interesting. I wonder if my low Vitamin D level had anything to do with my not being able to absorb calcium. And my magnesium level was so low my doctor said he couldn't believe I was walking around. I'd be curious to know if upped my D has had an effect on calcium and magnesium absorption. And if the probiotics I've been taking have helped.

    I had an extra need for phosphate, iron and zinc as well.
     
  3. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Well, vitamin D is necessary for calcium absorption in the guts. So yes, low D levels are likely to cause issues. I am not sure about Mg.
     
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  4. Deltrus

    Deltrus Senior Member

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    Manganese deficiency also seems to be a roadblock for me. I kept having posture problems, tendon position problems, fatigue, tension. My feet kept getting cramps, and it would feel like the tension radiated heavily into my calf. My shoulder would keep feeling like it was out of position or something. None of the other vitamins/minerals were working at all. Took 20 mg manganese and got a very large response within 5 minutes. Most of the symptoms fixed themselves.

    I keep hearing that manganese and b2 activate other b vitamins. I'm trying to find the source on that right now, or whenever I get more energy.

    I also hear that magnesium, copper, calcium and iron reduce manganese absorption and bio-availability, but again these sites have no sources ><. Really puts a lot more work in the hands of sick people who have no energy. Anyways I was getting copper detox symptoms earlier this week and was using lots of the other vitamins/minerals so perhaps that is why I suddenly got very low in manganese.

    There certainly are many manganese dependent enzymes. Copper has like 10 while Manganese has like 40. Maybe that is just because manganese can take magnesium's spot in many enzymes, and magnesium has 300 dependent enzymes so manganese can be used in quite a few of those.

    http://enzyme.expasy.org/cgi-bin/enzyme/enzyme-search-cf?Mn(2 )
     
    Little Bluestem and Gondwanaland like this.
  5. Deltrus

    Deltrus Senior Member

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    So far I've only been able to get methylation going for half a day at most.

    I think Rich has a great explanation of what is going wrong and stopping methylation.

    http://phoenixrising.me/research-2/...etion-theory-of-mecfs-by-rich-von-konynenburg

    Basically the problem is that, methylation creates the anti-oxidant glutathione which both triggers detox of heavy metals and increases the immune system. Glutathione also protects b12 from oxidization by forming a complex with it. Detox and immune response both create huge amounts of oxidation which use up glutathione and then destroy b12 which stops methylation.

    When I get more b12 in the mail, my strategy will be to reduce oxidation with high dose resveratrol, and to avoid things which cause the release of heavy metals (high dose vitamin c, stress, heat). I will also boost my liver with ALCAR.

    I will try to not overdose on minerals that cause oxidation, such as zinc and copper.

    I'l take fish oil and vitamin D to help with excess inflammation.

    I will take extra b2, b6 and manganese because I seem to need them. And maybe reduced amounts of the other b vitamins.

    I'm not too sure what else I can do. Hopefully resveratrol and maybe longvida curcumin will be the preferred anti-oxidants so that glutathione isn't fully used up.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2016
    u&iraok likes this.
  6. u&iraok

    u&iraok Senior Member

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    Have you looked into Fredd's protocol? I don't feel completely comfortable recommending it here just because there are much more knowledgeable people here but since no one answered, my understanding is that his protocol will get your B-12 levels up so that you can methylate.

    Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in, but in the meantime you could look into Fredd's.
     
  7. Deltrus

    Deltrus Senior Member

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    I'm doing everything in Fredd's protocol.
     
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  8. caledonia

    caledonia

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    Taking ALA will cause the detox of mercury from the brain. 600mg is an extremely large amount. Taking it only twice a day will detox it, but then it will cause redistribution, making you much worse (assuming you have mercury).

    I would guess that a very large amount of people on this forum have issues with mercury or other toxic metals. The symptoms are very similar to ME/CFS and they're ubiquitous in our environment. They block methylation and mineral transport. The more your methylation is blocked, the more you accumulate metals. That's on top of having methylation SNPs which also partially block methylation. It becomes a vicious cycle.

    See my signature link for information about Andrew Cutler's frequent dose chelation protocol, and also a document called Roadblocks to Successful Methylation.
     
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  9. Little Bluestem

    Little Bluestem All Good Things Must Come to an End

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    I think it started with Dog Person/Christine's post on Hair Mineral Testing. The purpose of the manganese is to support the endoplasmic reticulum, where a lot of cell processes take place.
     
  10. Deltrus

    Deltrus Senior Member

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    I'm making a bit of progress with my stack/strategy. In this post there is a LOT of speculation and stuff that is completely unprovable/unfounded. My brain just makes me want to make posts like these even though they are all speculation/fantasy. I'm trying to explain what I experience the best I can.

    I just really want to share even though I rate my post like 4/10 because there are literally no facts, and I'm leaving out a lot of things, and I'm tired.

    Please don't ask too many questions about stuff that I left out, as right now I'm currently in a mini crash and even reading questions will compel me to think and use up energy. I'l post next time I get inspiration + some energy.

    What I'm doing now:

    I take 1/2 of a multivitamin which is around 15 mg of each b vitamin, some copper, selenium, trace minerals. I also take coffee and resveratrol at this time. I don't like large amounts of the b2-5 anymore. Even p5p I keep low.

    Next I take 30 mg zinc, 1.5 mg copper, 25 mg p5p, 20 mg manganese, 200 mg magnesium.

    After around 30 minutes, I take ~20 mg ALA, 2g vitamin C, and 5 mg b12.

    After around 3 hours or so, I take a megadose of 1.5g thiamine. I believe that I have a malabsorbtion problem such as in this tread. http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ent-story-focus-on-thiamine-deficiency.24059/

    Everything up to the thiamine is to raise glutathione by a ton, so that when I add in thiamine, and cellular energy rises in problem areas, anti-oxidants are prepared. If they aren't prepared, things go bad, nerve pain gets worse, and I feel terrible. Thiamine is the key to production of energy. It doesn't need any cofactors, except maybe magnesium. The only major "cofactor" thiamine needs, is anti-oxidants to handle the mitochondria producing energy.

    ALA seems to drastically stimulate glutathione production in a way disportionate to the dose. I've heard other people say it could possibly be through hormesis. ALA combined with b12 and vitamin C gives a massive increase in glutathione. When I first take it, my fatigue and vision gets worse, then 30 minutes later I get much clearer vision and way less brain fog. Lower doses are more effective than larger doses. ALA and b12 make my nerves rapidly improve, and slowly I start feeling very good.

    I do not get crashes from not using ALA every 3 hours like in cutlers protocol, so perhaps my issue is not mercury.

    I constantly take b12, folate, and vitamin C after I take thiamine, so that all the rapidly re-energizing areas can regain intracellular oxidants, and perhaps heal through the methylation cycle.

    I feel big changes throughout each stage of my strategy. I know if it is working or not. Previous strategies seemed fairly unreliable but so far this strategy is more reliable.

    Some discoveries

    - I discovered my diarrhea was caused by dual zinc and copper deficiencies. Taking zinc and copper can indefinitely prolong it until I have to give up and go to bed, as long as I take 30 mg zinc and 3 mg copper every 30 minutes. I believe this is because zinc/copper superoxide dismutase is being used up rapidly. So first glutathione is being used up, then the body starts using zinc/copper superoxide dismuase, and that gets used up, causing zinc/copper deficiency. Clearly there is something causing huge amounts of oxidative stress.

    - I found that my tinnitus is directly linked to glutathione status. When my vision gets clear and my nerves start functioning better, my tinnitus slowly ceases. When I have most anti-oxidant systems in my body functioning well, the last part of my body to be fixed is the tinnitus that appears to originate from the upper right side of my brain. There is a small area which I can feel/sense that is constantly painful. Perhaps it is a virus causing large amount of oxidative stress through some mechanism. Perhaps mitochondria are being immortalized by a virus and constantly produce tons of oxidative stress. Perhaps it is MS. I haven't got an MRI yet.

    - Through my glutathione + thiamine strategy, I managed to reproduce perfect energy and mental clarity 3 times. My brain changed from only being able to focus on one region if I tried my hardest, to effortlessly processing everything. Things look much different, like 2d things look 3d and patterns pop out. I get my personality back and I don't feel under unbearable tension/fatigue.

    - The last time, tonight, that my strategy failed, I used my PEMF device and it stimulated my mitochondria too much, and it caused my anti-oxidant defenses to be overwhelmed. Even so, I think I managed to heal a lot before my anti-oxidant systems failed. And by taking resveratrol, I think the failure isn't so catastrophic. I'm actually still not feeling that bad.

    Next time I think I will get everything to work for much longer.

    Questions I'm asking myself

    What if CFS is caused purely by oxidative stress in regions where anti-oxidants cannot quickly/efficiently be replenished? And this oxidative stress quickly depletes b12, b1, zinc, copper, manganese, magnesium, potassium, in these regions.

    B1 and B12 are very vulnerable to oxidative stress, zinc/copper is used in superoxide dismutase, magnesium and potassium require large amounts of ATP (from b1) in order to stay at optimum concentration. Zinc is also used in the methylation cycle along with b12.

    And also all of these are intracellular nutrients, you can't really effectively test for them at this time.

    I think the way to heal is Fredd's protocol, but there are more roadblocks. I think a major roadblock for me is thiamine malabsorbtion. Another one is that I need resveratrol to keep oxidative stress down while I get glutathione working. A third is that glutathione can run out under certain circumstances.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
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  11. u&iraok

    u&iraok Senior Member

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    I understand.

    Boy, it's complicated, isn't it? You really seem to be in touch with your body and what it's doing. We do know our bodies best in many ways. I had and have a plan but to some degree it was too overwhelming and hard to figure out so I just spend years taking a lot of high quality supplements to get my nutrients up.

    It has worked to a good degree but it might have taken less time if I'd known exactly what I was doing. But who does?

    And what about all the nutrients that you don't notice the effects from, either for a while or ever, but they are doing good and providing a way for other nutrients to do their work.
     
    Deltrus likes this.
  12. Deltrus

    Deltrus Senior Member

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    Indeed. I think b2 especially is doing something mysterious. I benefit from large doses (300 mg) of b2, but only in cycles. And I'm not even supplementing molybdenum. I haven't experimented with b3 / 5 in large doses.

    And who knows if you have a problem absorbing one nutrient. I might make everything irrelevant.

    I think I'm going to stop with the thiamine for a few days and just focus on glutathione/ALA. I tried thiamine again today after the crash, apparently I need to build up slowly, I'm still crashed. And my digestion is screwed up, I need to fix that before I do anything but foundation stuff.

    I think perhaps I'm getting close to nutritionally brute forcing problems in my nervous system, temporarily fixing sites of heavy oxidation/inflammation/excitation/scarring/methylation blocks. But I think there is a reason for my illness, like a virus, misfolded proteins, etc.

    Phenibut 100% cures me for a day or two before tolerance sets in, so potentially the source for the oxidation is vastly increased calcium entering neurons/astrocytes/microglia. And perhaps that is caused by a virus etc. So the phenibut stops the oxidation, and then nutrients aren't sucked up like a vacuum trying to stop the oxidation. Maybe I should try taking phenibut with my regimen, to see if it will then repair the damaged area while oxidation is down.

    Idk something to think about for me, I probably wont try for a while.
     
  13. MacGyver

    MacGyver

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    Interesting.Thanks for your post!
    Have you tried dosing higher with vitamin C? What form are you taking btw? Sodium Ascorbate?
    Taking higher doses of vitamin C can actually reduce/stop diarhea if that is what is needed which I know is counter intuitive.
    But it would be consistent with vitamin E helping you retain magnesium. You see, when vitamin E is 'used' (oxidized) it can be 'recycled' by vitamin C (which donates an electron, one of the many ways its an anti-oxidant).

    Well, magnesium is necessary for the conversion of the storage form of vitamine D to the 'active' form (although in reality they both serve an active purpose).
    If I take magnesium without D I get a specific set of symptoms (feeling cold, depressed etc.) which are resolved by taking D. Which is currently around 20000IU every other day vs. only 125mg magnesium/day (only figured this out the past 2 weeks so haven't gone higher with the mag yet with this combination until today at 250mg).
    If I take D without magnesium I get the regular magnesium deficiency symptoms...
    If I don't take some calcium (86mg or less for christs sake!) along with both the D and magnesium I become extremely tired and weak.
    If I take 'too much' (2x 86mg...) calcium in addition to sufficient D, I then get more magnesium deficiency symptoms...
    Also had success with high dosage of boron (+-30mg/day), manganese (up to 20mg/day) and B2 (3x25mg/day) and on top of that vitamine C (have gone up to 75g in a single day, only once though, still no diarhea at that point...).
    Again not definate but I think vitamine C is now like a gaspedal for me. Seems I've finally got everything else in place and I can drive how good I feel with how much C I take. Too much and...noradrenaline rises too high.
    Oh yeah, there's a link between manganese and vitamin C as well: they're both necessary for cartilage/soft tissue repair. Which I can confirm: after I had been taking manganese for a while I had to up my C intake.

    Regarding your B2 cycles, what form are you taking? Zinc is needed to convert regular riboflavin to R5P/FMN so that might be related. A test with R5P might give you a pointer in what is going on there.

    Btw. I don't think you need to add the disclaimer, we're all in the same experimental boat here.
     
  14. Deltrus

    Deltrus Senior Member

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    @MacGyver Thnx. I'm taking sodium ascordbate, normal riboflavin, and FNM in my sublingual b vitamin. Interesting to know that zinc is needed to convert to R5P and FMN. Boron is still something I haven't tried.
     
  15. MacGyver

    MacGyver

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    Oh boy, try it, try it, try it! :) It's a must if you're struggeling with magnesium and vitamin D. Hell it's a must try for anyone on these boards imho. Too many good properties or rather a deficiency has so many far reaching negative effects. Look up some of my posts for more on boron.

    Since you're already on manganese it's even more a must since those two work together. And B2 and boron. And B6 and boron...

    Good luck!
     
  16. alicec

    alicec Senior Member

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    Nor do I. I wonder if this is another one of the myths like COMT +/+ means you don't tolerate methyl donors.
     

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