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a few more reasons b-12 may help?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by markmc2000, Oct 17, 2009.

  1. markmc2000

    markmc2000 Guest

    Lebowski posted this one before, but I thought a seperate thread may be in order

    http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6908611.html

    Pharmaceutical compositions for treating viral, proliferative and inflammatory diseases are disclosed comprising an amount of pharmaceutically acceptable vitamin B12 compound in combination with an interferon compound. Vitamin B12 compounds are administered separately, simultaneously or in combination with interferon compounds to provide an enhanced therapeutic effect for treating viral, proliferative and inflammatory diseases.

    which has a referances like ,

    Johnson et al., Scientific American, May, 1994, pp. 68-75.
    Iigo Masaaki et al., Markedly induced asialoGM1+CD8+ T cell production and enhancement of antimetastatic activity by interferon beta with folic or folinic acid, XP002227203 abstract, Cancer Immunology Immunotherapy, vol. 44, No. 2, 1997, pp. 65-69, ISSN: 0340-7004.
    R. Medenica et al., Vitamin B-12, A Positive Stimulator of Interferon Activity, Cancer Immuno-Biology Laboratory and Adolph Coors Clinic of Immunoregulation, Hilton Head Island, SC, abstract; 1995.
     
  2. markmc2000

    markmc2000 Guest

    some of Dr Martin Palls rational

    Fibromyalgia, Excessive Nitric Oxide/Peroxynitrite and Excessive NMDA Activity
    (Reprinted with author's permission.)



    By Martin L. Pall
    (martin_pall@wsu.edu phone: 509-335-1246)
    Professor of Biochemistry and Basic Medical Sciences
    Washington State University
    Source: http://molecular.biosciences.wsu.edu/Faculty/pall.html
    Help Support this Research

    One of the barriers to our understanding of the mechanisms involved in fibromyalgia (FM) is the lack of any animal models of FM. So whereas proposed animal models for chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS),multiple chemical sensitivity (MCS) and posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) are available which suggest a role for excessive nitric oxide in each of these conditions, there is no similar animal model to study for FM. Consequently, we a left with studies of human FM patients to suggest a possible mechanism. The human data suggests a mechanism centered on excessive levels of nitric oxide and its oxidant product, peroxynitrite, as well as excessive activity of a neurotransmitter system called the NMDA system. It is known that when NMDA receptors are hyperactive they produce excessive nitric oxide and peroxynitrite (1). This is consistent with the mechanism I have proposed for CFS, MCS and PTSD, centered on excessive nitric oxide and peroxynitrite (1) and may explain the overlaps among these conditions and FM.

    Excessive NMDA activity is implicated in FM by three different types of studies. The most recent of these was recently reported by Smith et al (2), reporting that a subgroup of FM patients had a complete resolution of their symptoms by removing both monosodium glutamate (MSG) and aspartame from their diets. MSG and aspartame are both described as excitotoxins (2), because both glutamate from MSG and aspartate from aspartame, activate the NMDA receptors in the nervous system and may lead to neural damage as a consequence of excessive activation. A major mechanism of such NMDA-mediated damage is produced by the excessive nitric oxide and peroxynitrite produced by such activation. There are two other types of studies that provide support for excessive NMDA activity in FM. Several research groups have reported that NMDA antagonists, drugs that lower NMDA receptor activity, improve the symptoms of FM patients (3-6), strongly suggesting the such activity is excessive in FM and that the excessive activity is responsible for producing FM symptoms. A. A. Larson's group at the University of Minnesota has reported studies of the cerebrospinal fluid of FM patients, strongly suggesting that NMDA activity is elevated and that nitric oxide synthesis is also elevated (7). So we have three different types of studies that provide support for the inference that NMDA activity is elevated in FM, one of which also provides evidence for a consequent elevated level of nitric oxide synthesis.

    How does this fit into the symptoms of FM? The most characteristic symptom of FM is multiorgan pain and it is known that both excessive NMDA activity and excessive nitric oxide levels can generate pain. Nitric oxide is known to stimulate some but not all of the nociceptors, the neurons that generate the sensation of pain, providing an explanation for the pain generation (reviewed in 1). Peroxynitrite is implicated in generating pain responses, as well (8). Other symptoms are similar to those in CFS and may be generated by mechanisms consistent with a nitric oxide/peroxynitrite etiology (9).

    Peroxynitrite is a potent oxidant and if its levels are elevated, as proposed, than levels of oxidative damage should also be elevated in FM. Two studies have reported such oxidative damage in FM, consistent with this prediction (10,11). However one of these studies also suggests that nitric oxide levels are low (11), not high as reported in a previously cited study (7). So there is some confusion in the literature on this important point. In the study inferring low nitric oxide, the parameter measured was nitrosothiol level in the blood and nitrosothiols react with peroxynitrite (12), suggesting that the pattern reported may be due to high peroxynitrite levels, rather than low nitric oxide levels.

    FM as well as CFS and MCS is commonly treated with vitamin B12 injections, using B12 in the form of hydroxocobalamin or cyanocobalamin at doses of 1 to 10 mg (13). Hydroxocobalamin is a potent nitric oxide scavenger and I have proposed that this is the way such B12 injections may work to alleviate symptoms of these conditions (13). There is an enzyme in human cells that converts cyanocobalamin into hydroxocobalamin so cyanocobalamin injections may work by this same mechanism. The symptoms of FM, CFS and MCS are quite distinctive from those of B12 deficiency, so it seems unlikely that the B12 injections act in these conditions by alleviating such a deficiency.

    Many cases of FM are reported to be preceded by physical trauma, such as caused by a car accident, fall or operation (reviewed in 1). How might this initiate FM events? A study of physical trauma in humans reports that they are associated with elevated nitric oxide levels (14) and specifically traumatic head injury is widely reported to produce elevated nitric oxide levels (A Pubmed search on traumatic head injury and nitric oxide will generate many references on this : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi).

    At least some of this nitric oxide generation is through the action of excessive NMDA activity. An essential component of the elevated nitric oxide/peroxynitrite theory of these several conditions is that once peroxynitrite levels are elevated, they may act to raise the levels of both nitric oxide and its other precursor, superoxide, thus possibly leading to a chronic elevation of peroxynitrite. This may explain how a chronic condition like FM may be initiated by a short term traumatic event.

    References:
    1. Pall M. L. Common etiology of posttraumatic stress disorder, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome and multiple chemical sensitivity via elevated nitric oxide/peroxynitrite. Med Hypoth 2001;57:139-145.
    2. Smith J. D., Terpening C. M., Schmidt S. O. F., Gums J. G. Relief of fibromyalgia symptoms following discontinuation of dietary excitotoxins. Ann Pharmacotherapy 2001;35:702-706.
    3. Srensen J., Bengtsson A., Bckman E., Henriksson K. G., Bengtsson M. Pain analysis in patients with fibromyalgia. Effects of intravenous morphine, lidocaine, and
    ketamine. Scand J Rheumatol 1995;24:360-365.
    4. Nicolodi M., Volpe A. R., Sicuteri F. Fibromyalgia and headache. Failure of serotonergic analgesia and N-methyl-D-aspartate-mediated neuronal plasticity: their common clues. Cephalalgia, 1998;18: 41-44.
    5. Graven Nielsen T., Aspegren Kendall S., Henriksson K. G. et al. Ketamine reduces muscle pain, temporal summation, and referred pain in fibromyalgia patients. Pain 2000:85:483-91.
    6. Buskila D. Fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome and myofascial pain syndrome. Curr Opin Rheumatol 2001;13:117-127.
    7. Larson A. A., Giovengo S. L., Russell I. J., Michalek J. E. Changes in the concentrations of amino acids in the cerebrospinal fluid that correlate with pain in patients with fibromyalgia: implications for nitric oxide pathways. Pain 2000;87:201-211.
    8. Liu T., Knight K. R., Tracey D. J. Hyperalgesia due to nerve injury role of peroxynitirte. Neuroscience 2000;97:125-131.
    9. Pall M. L. Elevated peroxynitrite as the cause of chronic fatigue syndrome: Other inducers and mechanisms of symptom generation. J Chronic Fatigue Syndr 2000:7(4):45-58.
    10. Eisinger J., Zakarian H., Pouly F., Plantamura A., Ayavou T. Protein peroxidation, magnesium deficiency and fibromyalgia. Magnes Res 1994;7:285-288.
    11. Eisinger J., Gandolfo C., Zakarian H., Ayavou T. Reactive oxygen species, antioxidant status and fibromyalgia. J Musculoskeletal Pain 1997;5(4);5-16.
    12. Rauhala P., Chiueh C. C. Neuroprotection by S-nitrosoglutathione of brain dopamine neurons from oxidative stress. FASEB J 1998;12:165-173.
    13. Pall M. L. Cobalamin used in chronic fatigue syndrome therapy is a nitric oxide scavenger. J Chronic Fatigue Syndr 2001:8(2);39-44.
    14. Gebhard F., Nssler A. K., Rsch M., Pfetsch H., Kinzl L., Brckner U. B. Early posttraumatic increase in production of nitric oxide in humans. Shock 1998;10:237-242.
     
  3. markmc2000

    markmc2000 Guest

    HIV and b-12

    Titre du document / Document title
    Inhibition of productive human immunodeficiency virus-1 infection by cobalamins
    Auteur(s) / Author(s)
    WEINBERG J. B. ; SAULS D. L. ; MISUKONIS M. A. ; SHUGARS D. C. ;
    Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
    VA and Duke univ. medical cent., dep. medicine, obstetrics gynecology, and surgery, Durham NC 27705, ETATS-UNIS

    Rsum / Abstract
    Various cobalamins act as important enzyme cofactors and modulate cellular function. We investigated cobalamins for their abilities to modify productive human immunodeficiency virus-1 (HIV-1) infection of hematopoietic cells in vitro. We show that hydroxocobalamin (OH-Cbl), methylcobalamin (Me-Cbl). and adenosylcobalamin Ado-Cbl (Ado-Cbl) inhibit HIV-1 infection of normal human blood monocytes and lymphocytes. The inhibitory effects were noted when analyzing the monocytotropic strains HIV-1-BaL and HIV-1-ADA as well as the lymphocytotropic strain HIV-1-LAI. Cobalamins did not modify binding of gp120 to CD4 or block early steps in viral life cycle, inhibit reverse transcriptase, inhibit induction of HIV-1 expression from cells with established or latent infection, or modify monocyte interferon-α production. Because of the ability to achieve high blood and tissue levels of cobalamins in vivo and the general lack of toxicity, cobalamins should be considered as potentially useful agents for the treatment of HIV-1 infection. This is a US government work. There are no restrictions on its use.
     
  4. Lisa

    Lisa Senior Member

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    This last one is very interesting markmc2000. :)

    Thank you for sharing. :)

    Lisa :)
     
  5. markmc2000

    markmc2000 Guest

    just organizing info

    Hi Lisa,

    your welcome, I think lebowski orignally posted the last one and I simply reposted it here in a new thread to make it easy to group other ideas for why B-12 may also help. Hopefully, some of the less mentally challenged will see these and have an AH-Ha moment. I am probably restating the obvious. :p

    FYI: I have a problem with caffine,(caffine creates more Nitric oxide in the body) leading to which feels like something Dr Martine Pall describes as "excitotoxicity. Cell death from excessive creation of peroxynitrite (if I interpreted this correctly). I also benefit from b-12, and b vitamins. Then we have this new XMRV virus which could possibly be inhibited. then of course methylation. All this info might somehow go together you think?

    Thanks
    Mark
     
  6. Lisa

    Lisa Senior Member

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    Mark,

    Caffeine intolerance can also be caused by low liver functions. :) Been years since I could have a cup of coffee, even decaf is too strong to not leave me feeling strung out a hour later.

    Thanks for reposting it. I don't get over to the other threads where this might originally have been.

    Lisa :)
     
  7. lebowski

    lebowski

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    b12 antiretroviral

    hi mark ,
    thanks for the referances : ), it s kind of u ..
    well if it is all a retrovirus at some point hopefully we shall be using antihiv like meds , till that time maybe there could be alternatives like herbals and vits and i dont know , anything is fine for me to try if not too toxic .. i hope fredd is doing experiments on his subjects : ) about b12 at the moment and he comes with results , i especially wonder the daily dose of b12 he could suggest ..
     
  8. markmc2000

    markmc2000 Guest

    Hiya, b12 experiments

    Hi Lebowski.

    Good points. Be interesting if a doctor or somebody could post what safe levels of vitamin B12 would be? If one is not concerned about the methyl mercury issue, of course. Seems as though Freddd is thriving on high doses. I do notice some extra yeast on my tounge lately and that has a meaning I'm sure. Kind of feels like an endotoxin reaction to me (bacteria die-off).

    I'm taking one of the Jarrow 5000 losenges after dinner and my sleep has improved (no need for sleeping pills anymore), hair has stopped falling out, and nerve pain in legs, feet, and urinary tract has subsided. So I am convinced the b12 helps in some capacity. However, not sure how with so many different opinions on B12.

    I'm going to meet with my Doctor soon, who is not afraid to try someting new, and get his take on it. I will post if I figure anything out.

    Mark
     
  9. lebowski

    lebowski

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    pus on tongue

    i had pus on my tongue since 20 , everyone says it s because of smoking , but lately with those b vits and lots of vit d plus selenyum etc , all the pus s gone , it has a healthy red color now .. and it started with whiteness around the brown pus and soreness on it , then yesterday finally cleared , all in three weeks something .. so the whiteness may be something other than yeast i think ( inflamation ? ) ..
     
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mark,

    Very interesting on the effects on the viruses. Instead of being sick half a dozen times a year for decades, since starting mb12 six years ago I have had two minor upper reperatory illnesses that cleared before I got to the doctor. However, it might not have been infectious as both times I was in Cleveland during hay fever season.


    Be interesting if a doctor or somebody could post what safe levels of vitamin B12 would be? If one is not concerned about the methyl mercury issue, of course

    I posted the results of some calculations and spreadsheet modeling specifically about the methylmercury and am still awaiting comments from any interested parties. Based on the amount of mb12 needed to donate a methyl group to mercury it takes a LOT of mb12 to do any substantial amount at once. Mb12 has a molecular weight around 1335 of which only 18 is a donatable methyl group. If 100% of 7mg of mb12 were used for methylating mercury it would methylate 1mg. As soon as it is methylated the liver starts removing it at about 1% per day and shipping it out in the bile. Serum halflife is about 70-77 days based on research. As a 5mg sublingual puts at best about 1mg into serum with a serum halflife initially of 20-50 minutes, decreasing to 4 hours after 12 hours, most of it is excreted before it does anything at all, making expensive urine as docs like to put it, currently $14/day worth for me. Assuming a level of mercury at which a person isn't having severe toxicity 24/7, at 1mg of mb12 entering serum daily and 10% efficiency at methylating mercury the amount of methylmercury in circulation reaches a maximum of 2mg at between 200 and 300 days and holds steady as long there is a reserve of mercury in the body to be methylated. The minimum level of methylmercury for low level toxic effects is 20-50 mg, usually with a delay of 6 or more months after exposure. After the body's store of mercury has been depleted it takes about 10 serum halflifes, about two years, to reach near zero levels, losing 97% each year. That takes it down to 2 mcg body load. However, as daily input is higher than that due to coal fired plants, fish and other foods the actual equilibrium level is higher than that. So far nobody has suggested any errors in my chemistry or logic or calculations used in my models. If they do, I'll correct it. However, as first draft approximation I think it is probabaly approximately descriptive. Rich pointed out that the toxic reactions he heard of were with very large IV infusions. I calculated that 700mg of mb12 in an IV infusion, more likely if repeated, might cause a temporary methylmercury reaction based on my model. Doses of this size are used and researched so it is possible to run into that at the extremes. Normally doses of up to repeated infusions of 35 grams are used to detox cyanide. Multigram doses were given to uremic folks awaiting kidney transplant to see if toxic levels might occur. There are no known toxic reactions in any of those cases in the research done. Only cyanocobalamin has known toxicity for certain people.

    At 900mg/month injected which I am taking now, but worked up to over 5 years and did not jump right in, I am holding my own in the area of neurological deterioration and it is keeping me out of a wheel chair. Based on the model I can't see how the tiny amount methylated by a sublingual mb12 could cause a problem. The more that is methylated, the more removed by the liver. In the early 90s I had elevated liver enzymes for 5 years for unknown reasons. I have had no problems at all since starting mb12.

    I'm taking one of the Jarrow 5000 losenges after dinner and my sleep has improved (no need for sleeping pills anymore), hair has stopped falling out, and nerve pain in legs, feet, and urinary tract has subsided. So I am convinced the b12 helps in some capacity. However, not sure how with so many different opinions on B12.

    My hair and nails both thickened with mb12 and better cell reproduction. Mb12 causes melatonin to be generated and mb12 deficiency causes sleep disorders. Mb12 deficiency causes neuropathy and neuropathic pain which can also occur during healing depending upon circumstances. In 9 months 90% of my neuropathic pain went away including from physical nerve trauma of a car wreck. I would say the "how" of mb12 helping was that it was correcting functional deficiencies and doing the 600+ things it does.


    I do notice some extra yeast on my tounge lately and that has a meaning I'm sure. Kind of feels like an endotoxin reaction to me (bacteria die-off).

    Before mb12 I had a heavily coated tongue, very inflamed beef-red and burning. My whole mouth burned and was inflamed and I couldn't keep gum infections under control despite flossing etc daily.

    Everything in my mouth started changing in 10 days and the burning tongue was relieved in the first time in more than a decade. All the baterial problems subsided and there appeared to be a complete change of oral bacteria.
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi lebowski,

    anything is fine for me to try if not too toxic .. i hope fredd is doing experiments on his subjects : )

    That's the power of the internet. We are all grist for the mill. We each are running our own variations of the experiments. A few years back it was realized that there isn't always a nice obvious formula that gives an exact answer. Various folks came up with the idea and various methods of running large numbers of variations in simulation, calling it Monte Carlo (code name for the method during the manhattan project).

    I started using it to model claims before I had even heard the name.

    So here we have large numbers of people running thier own experiments and via the internet sharing the results. As I've said before, all results are results and they all add to the model. So I try to take all the results and combine them to come up with a coherent model. It's much faster than doing 1 experiment each 5 years in sequence. Using all of our results as a Monte Carlo simulation we should have some pretty good answers in 5 more years. I was dying and my kid's lives were deteriorating and couldn't wait for the usual snails pace. So I applied the internet as a distributed processing supercomputer running a Monte Carlo simulation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_method

    I am my own #1 experimental subject, just as each of us are to ourselves. And it is all experimental as we are way off the beaten paths that lead to our problems in the first place. So thankyou everybody who experiments and contributes data by sharing their experiences.
     
  12. markmc2000

    markmc2000 Guest

    questions


    Freddd, Are you saying that Rich mentioned 700mg IV may have caused toxic, "methyl mercury" reactions? AM I understanding that correctly?

    Are you saying that you are not aware of any toxic effects of high dose methyl b12 that you know of? Except for maybe the 35 grams used to detox cyanide where cyanocobalamin was used? That is great if that is the case. It would be good to know what the upper limits are for methyl b12 for reference. (as a point of comfort) I am just trying to guage the potential dangers... Not that I know how, but it seems like methyl mercry is one potentially dangerous issue, and the other is dose that is "too large" meaning "toxic". ANy others come to mind? The other was "hypochlemia" from not enought potassium I think.

    Freddd, what are your health problems that your are treating with B-12?
    You have/had CFS? but also injuries from car accident you are treating with vitamins? Your symptoms come back pretty quickly though when you stop your vitamin therapy?

    It seems like the teeth and gums are one way to guage healing. I can look at my tongue and gums to see improvements at times
    My gums turn more deep pink, from kind of a pinkish white with b12, seems like healing to me.

    ANy ideas how many people you have helped heal with your vitamin treatment Freddd?
     
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Mark,

    Are you saying that Rich mentioned 700mg IV may have caused toxic, "methyl mercury" reactions? AM I understanding that correctly?

    Not exactly. He said "large IV infusions" that may have caused some degree of neurological reaction from hypothecized methylmercury formation that he had heard of. My calculations indicate that 700mg might at the minimum be sufficient to do that. I also researched what "large IV infusions" of mb12 were and that was generally measured in terms of grams of mb12 with one uremic toxicity study going down to repeated doses of 500mg.


    Except for maybe the 35 grams used to detox cyanide where cyanocobalamin was used

    NO. Cyanocobalamin is the only form that does not detox cyanide because it already contains cyanide. 35 gram doses of hydroxyb12, adb12 or mb12 can be used to detox cyanide poisoning because it forms the generally nontoxic cyanocobalamin that is rapidly excreted. Cyanob12 is the ONLY form of b12 that is potentially toxic. In people with Leber's hereditary optic neuropathy when cyanob12 is given, cyanide is deposited around the optic nerve killing it and causing blindness.


    It would be good to know what the upper limits are for methyl b12 for reference. (as a point of comfort) I am just trying to guage the potential dangers...

    Methylb12 has no known toxic levels short of drowning in it or being crushed by a ton of it. It has been tested to repeated 35 gram doses for detoxing cyanide though hydroxy is usually used do to greater stability.

    It's like the answer to "What is the lethal level of marihuana? 1500 pounds consumed in 15 minutes." 1500 pounds of anything consumed in 15 minutes is lethal.

    There is no known dose limit to mb12 and no known toxicity from mb12 itself. As the methylmercury question is brought up frequently I decided to check it out. I could find zero cases so Rick knowing of 2 is more than I could find. Also, it makes sense that it required "large IV infusions" after looking at the math. A mg of of methylb12 is only 1.4% methyl group. It takes 1 methyl group per atom of mercury. It takes 7mg of methylb12 to supply enough methyl groups at 100% efficiency to methylate 1mg of mercury. Now do you see why the methylmercury thing is highly unlikely? In other words, 1 mg of mercury in the body is enough to destroy 200-400% of the active b12 contained in the entire body or enough to destroy 100% of the active b12 being bound in the serum for 3 years. No wonder it does damage and 80% of the damage it does is identical to b12 deficiency. It's much more of a hypothetical problem than a real one, especally if one looks at the molecular weights.

    The other was "hypochlemia" from not enought potassium I think.

    hypokalemia is a real problem. Mb12 can cause a rapid startup of healing that causes a temporary depletion of potassium, among other things. That's why so many other vitamins and minerals need to be taken with it. I have experienced that temporary depletion of potassium 3 times myself; mb12, adb12 and methylfolate startups.


    but also injuries from car accident you are treating with vitamins?

    Let's start with this one. That short section asks a lot. On Feb 9, 1972 I had a 7000 pound overdose of steel plus impurities at 40 mph. It resulted in three fractures at T10, T11 and T12, 2 flattened on the right side disks T10/T11 and T11/T12, ruptured disks in the lumbar area, damaged bulging disks, in the cervical area, damaged muscles the length of my spine, damaged dorsal horns and other damage on the left side from hyperextention leading to about 1/3 of the muscles on my left back being atrophied from midback to top of shoulders from nerve damage Then a few years later FMS developed. I had intensely burning neurological pain from mid back to shoulders and a bit over the front of shoulders. I had an area of RSD with coarsened skin and hair on my left back and shoulder.

    Freddd, what are your health problems that your are treating with B-12?

    FMS, CFS, ME, MCS, IBS, subacute combined degeneration, depression, mood problems, personality changes, misc neuropsyc changes, cognitive changes, memory problems, brainfog, blood changes, skin problems, neuropathic pain, almost continuous nausea, allegies, asthma, thickened mucous, frequent pneumonias, edema, streps, sleep disorders, severe pain all over. Pick out about 200 symptoms of the 300 on that list excluding psychosis and related symptoms and female based symptoms and you would be mostly right.


    You have/had CFS?

    Yes, that was one set of symptoms. I had sudden onset with a suspected viral infection.

    Your symptoms come back pretty quickly though when you stop your vitamin therapy?

    Some of them. The functional ones can come back quickly. The ones based on healed damage take a lot longer to come back. What happens most quickly are my current pivot point symptoms, numb feet and other SCD related neurological problems.

    It seems like the teeth and gums are one way to guage healing. I can look at my tongue and gums to see improvements at times

    Your current pivot point symptoms.

    ANy ideas how many people you have helped heal with your vitamin treatment Freddd?

    Hundreds I know of. How many read and try it but don't ever post? How many that post are also sharing it with friends and relatives? I have no way of knowing in all. My dentist's remark last week was "Say that mb12 stuff really works". I had given a history and he decided to try some.
     
  14. susan

    susan Senior Member

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    Shots or tablets

    Hi Fredd,
    I Have not been following posts for a while...too fogged in the brain. Did start the 1000mcg of methyl B very slowly as everything I take makes me ill about 6 wks ago ...then I completely forgot I was doing it....too sick. This week I went to the Doc and she looked at me...got up and got the B12 Methl cobalamin 10mg and gave me a shot.

    I slept for the first time in months and yesterday had such a glow and peaceful feeling.....I found myself singing in the shower, cant remember last when that happened. Of course I felt sick with nausea as everything I take makes me so ill. Tried Gluthathione for 6 mths and got sicker and sicker till my adrenal insufficiency put me to bed for months because of the stress of the nausea.

    My question is ...is the shot better than the tablet. 2 shots a week. ?

    It will take me weeks to get my body slowly introduced to the tablet.

    Is the 10mg shot the same equivalent in the body as 2x 5000mcg tabs.

    What i noticed today when I woke is my adrenaline was running fast....usually is fast but this was not pleasant as I concentrate with the Stress Eraser everyday to bring it under control. The nausea makes it run too or is this usually the type of thing that can happen....hyped up.

    Jumped out of bed at 5.30 am for action...energetic or maybe it was the increase in adrenaline.

    Maybe with only having the shots 2 times a week I might get less nausea..still have it 2 days later....rather than the pills

    or
    maybe cut the dose of the shots in half if I have this adrenaline problem.
    really not sure what caused the ...whether the nasuea or the shot as nausea can surge it too
    Confused.

    Hope you can help me as I love this feeling of energy and dont want it to go away.

    Susan
     
  15. lebowski

    lebowski

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    those subjects

    i know it fredd , u r collecting data and analyse it and developing ur teory and volunteers may try ideas on themselves if they feel like it is worth tring and their expriences can help ppl to improve existing teories.. or something like this , sorry it s not possible to put it in a better way with my retarded english

    " subjects " was just to add some humour to the post , and i understand why u had to make an explenation ..

    i have read another b12 - aids connection paper on internet saying something like , the people with high levels of b12 and hiv positive developed aids 4 years later than the ones with low levels of b12 .. 4 years for low b12 and 8 years with high b12 if i remember correct ..

    if it works against hiv it can work against xmrv in theory , the question here is what is the thearapotic window for b12 and all the other supplements .. and what r those supplements , should we add garlic for example .. i know u dont know the answers ,at least yet , but i hope u can investigate this optimum antiretroviral action of b12 and its friends ..
     
  16. markmc2000

    markmc2000 Guest

    HI susan,

    I know yesterday I had a bit of nausea with the methyl b12 losenge and other vitamins and minerals combined. Sometimes I try and take some fiber with olive oil to force a bile dump into the fiber in my stomach to help with toxic sick feelings when I am healing. Maybe this is what you experienced from B12?

    I think milk thistle can help with bile and or detox. Also, my doctor prescribes "uridisol" to help move toxic bile form the body. So excretion is important with the whole healing challenge, and not sure if that helps but something to put in your bag of tricks.

    Also, I am not sure, but some reason I think one can feel wired or energized when taking something that works for killing bacteria in her body. I am not sure, but I thought I had a similar reaction when taking an anitbiotic called "flagyl"; where I felt wired and edgy.


    Mark
     
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Salt Lake City
    Hi Susan,

    My question is ...is the shot better than the tablet. 2 shots a week. ?

    There are some differences. Let's assume that the tablet you are talking about is the Jarrow 1mg or 5mg or Enzymatic Therapy 1mg. These are the 5 star tablets of mb12 that work well. However, for them to do that, they must be retained for 45 minutes to 2 hours. A tablet that is chewed and swallowed or swallowed absorbs at 1% so 1000mcg gives an absorbtion of 10mcg at 1%. At 45 minutes of one of those two brands it gives about 150mcg (15%) and at 120 minutes about 250mcg (25%).

    Is the 10mg shot the same equivalent in the body as 2x 5000mcg tabs

    NO. The 10mg injection puts 10,000 mcg into your serum. That is enough for some to make it by diffusion into your cerebral spinal fluid and gets it to your brain even if you have impairment getting it there as so many with CFS/FMS have been found to have. In order to put 10,000 mcg into serum with sublinguals takes about 50mg (10x5000mcg) with each tablet held as long as possible over a 150 minute or so period with several at a time in the mouth.


    It will take me weeks to get my body slowly introduced to the tablet.

    Why, you have already had 10mg all at once. A single tablet won't come close to duplicating this.


    Jumped out of bed at 5.30 am for action...energetic or maybe it was the increase in adrenaline

    Unless you are producing adrenaline for some reason all that you are feeling is the normal increase in energy as some of the mb12 converts to adb12 and gfets into your mitochondria for making ATP properly. It can feel like adrenaline at first but it isn't. It is just an increase in energy production that will calm down after a little while as the body gets used to it. If you were to take Country Life Dibencozide(adb12) that would bring the mitochondria up to speed in short order.


    Maybe with only having the shots 2 times a week I might get less nausea..still have it 2 days later....rather than the pills

    Two injections a week with sublinguals inbetween to maintain higher levels will get you adjusted with less yoyo. 2 shots a week only will be yoyo that never stops since 3 days between allows so much b12 to drain that it is like starting over again each time.

    maybe cut the dose of the shots in half if I have this adrenaline problem. really not sure what caused the ...whether the nasuea or the shot as nausea can surge it too
    Confused.

    It probably isn't adrenaline, just normal startup. After years of lack of the mitochiondria not working right it feels different when they start up. Maintain and don't be anxious about it. Cutting the dose in half might mean not enough to get it into the CSF and brain. For many the threshold for that is between 6mg and 7.5mg subcutaneously. The nausea may be becasue your neurology is working better. Nausea is often a b12 deficiency symptom. Starting mb12 often intensifies deficiency symptoms before they go away. If you never get through them you never get past them and go through the intensification over and over because you start up over and over.

    Hope you can help me as I love this feeling of energy and dont want it to go away.

    Taking the sublinguals daily and mb12 injections twice a week for a while will bring you up to an equilibrium and then all the excess energy will fade away. However, with the cofactors one can level off at "normal" without the severe abnormal fatigue.
     

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