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A critical commentary and preliminary re-analysis of the PACE trial

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Valentijn, Dec 14, 2016.

  1. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    I have only skimmed it.
    But, though it is a reasonable summary of the field just after the published secondary mediation analysis, and it has lots of reasons PACE is crappy, it can't actually conclusively say 'the numbers were X, they should have been Y", because at that point the data wasn't released.
    At least not for the primary numbers in the PACE trial.
    It is also not actually published in any peer reviewed journal.
     
  2. Dr Speedy

    Dr Speedy

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    If you have another look you will see it was published in a peer-reviewed medical journal ...
     
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  3. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    Indeed it is - I had missed that - and just searched on pubmed - which doesn't index it.
     
  4. Sea

    Sea Senior Member

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    It doesn't download automatically. Even though you can't read the language there's a click box on the right for donating and a click box on the left for downloading
     
  5. JoanDublin

    JoanDublin Senior Member

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    Thank you. I figured it out on the PC just like you said :)
     
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  6. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    I agree with them that it is perpetuated, at least in significant part, by false illness beliefs.

    Their
    false illness beliefs.

    :p
     
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  7. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    I was a participant in a study attempting a CBT sham group [EAS], so it was blinded. I guessed, though I wasn't cheeky enough to askthe others if they knew what was going on (I'm a psychology graduate so may have been more aware). When I read the protocol afterwards I laughed because the researchers weren't allowed to redirect our conversation after starting us off on the same topics as the CBT group. We went off on tangents like what type of alcohol was tolerated best in ME (and set ourselves drinking gin homework!).

    The conclusion was

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17014748

    Non specific effects of therapy aren't talked about much. Similar to placebo, but not quite the same. I definitely felt some benefit from havinga chance to talk about ME without even a placebo effect (as I guessed I was in a control group).

    Yes especially with CBT which could in a sense be seen as training to answer the questionnaire differently, whilst doing nothing about the underlying disease (or potentially making it worse with graded activity).

    Anyway we now have a peer reviewed paper to reference and hopefully a couple more to come. This is big progress in terms of credibility :cocktail:
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
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  8. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    WHAT?????
     
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  9. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    @iansbergen it's not in the writeup of the study (!) but our informal study within a study indicated that gin and tonic was tolerated better than eg wine/beer. It's what happens when you don't keep ME participants properly under control! The CBT groups had more structured, directed content.

    I now don't drink anything though: ME intolerance plus beta blockers for POTS makes any alcohol a bad plan. If you fancy a drink over Christmas try gin :cocktail:
     
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  10. roller

    roller wiggle jiggle

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    yes, drink gin.
    drink ethanol.

    really bad are only low % alcohols.
    red wine the worst of all... lol..
     
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  11. JaimeS

    JaimeS Senior Member

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    You have a way with words, Jenny!
     
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  12. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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  13. Dx Revision Watch

    Dx Revision Watch Owner of Dx Revision Watch

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    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
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  14. Barry53

    Barry53 Senior Member

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    But more than a ring of truth I suspect :)
     
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  15. Hutan

    Hutan Kina solidarity

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    Thanks @Jenny TipsforME

    Your findings re gin are noted for future reference. I'm also making a note of that other study you mention - it looks useful when countering the view that CBT is helpful for ME.

    The following is from 'Conclusions' and is talking about the primary outcome, the SF-36.

    ie
    ......................................................................................CBT...................EAS.....................SMC
    % with at least 15% increase in physical function.........32%..................40%.......................49%
    % with at least 15% increase in mental health..............64%...................60%......................53%

    So, although I like this idea,
    in this case the researchers weren't highly successful with the training in questionnaire answering.

    We don't get to see P values testing for real differences between the treatment arms for these outcomes in the abstract. Probably it's mostly pretty random. But, if I had to make a story out of this, I think the evidence points to some people having a mental health benefit when they meet with other ME patients (feeling less alone and sharing tips for coping) but that CBT with a GET component hurts rather than helps physical function.

    Tom has added a comment worth looking at on PubMed below the abstract pointing out some issues with the supposed improvement in the objective outcome (walking performance) seen in the CBT arm.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17014748
     
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  16. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member

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    Yes in this case the questionnaire training was below par.
    Edit: Though without anchoring subjective questionnaire results to objective meaaures like steps per day or sick days, what we just don't know is how the subjective measures were influenced by CBT.

    I think you're right about the mental health boost from meeting up, whether you discuss gin or symptom perception. This chimes with the data and my experience of taking part.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
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  17. Esther12

    Esther12

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    I loved reading this paper (even though my printer messed up and gave me pages confusingly out of order).

    A great summary of the problems with the PACE recovery criteria. Really clear and simple on a lot of issues that I and so many others struggle to communicate concisely (I thought it was less clear on the SF36-PF issues than some of the other summaries about, but this is probably the simplest part of the criteria to explain problems with so not such a surprise others did a good job too).

    The PACE recovery claims were blatant spin, but the data Matthees helped secure does a great job of illustrating this.

    I'm not familiar with the Beekman 6mwt data they use - don't think anyone has used that against PACE before. Sounds damning.

    With any critical piece on PACE there's always more that I wish had been included, and that's the case here too, but that may be why I never get anything done. Thanks to all the authors - you're mega-stars.

    Thanks also to @Keith Laws, David Tuller and Sam Carter for assisting.
     
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  18. Woolie

    Woolie Gone now, hope to see you all again soon somewhere

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    @Jenny TipsforME, the study you were in seems to be of better quality than most. Their conclusions were fairly honest and accurate for a psyc study.

    I'm also really interested in the gin conversation!
     
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  19. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    I have always been able to tolerate spirits better than things like wine. Indeed I used to be able to drink far more alcohol as whisky than wine.
     
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  20. Sean

    Sean Senior Member

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    For different effects of various alcohol types, see my post @ #13 on this thread.

    Whole thread has good discussions on it.
     
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