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3 kings to lift you

jpcv

Senior Member
Messages
386
Location
SE coast, Brazil
Corticosteroids are anti inflamatory.
I took them but they didn´t work for me.
Adressing gut issues is very important, it helped me a lot: probiotics+ antiinflamatory diet
 

62milestogojoe

What's a forum then?
Messages
221
Location
UK
I would only ever recommend corticosteroids only for a particular kind of eminent life or death situation and use that does not extend beyond a couple of weeks.

Corticosteroids are not really anti-inflammatories, they are just chemical messages produced mainly by the adrenals. Use of corticosteroids is extremely dangerous. Manmade corticosteroids have too long a half life - partly by intent, with the result that it may result in atrophy and failure of the adrenals - a very bad consequence...adrenals are really not expendable body parts, they are essential to life itself. There are other very horrendous consequences to using corticosteroids which is why they are a tool of last resort in autoimmune reactions. THIS IS SOMETHING YOU REALLY DON"T WANT TO TRY.

I've been through hell with corticosteroids and they're consequences are a primary reason why I ended up on this forum. Please do a vast amount of research before every recommending corticosteroids to anyone.

There are many natural anti-inflammatory compounds in food, concentrates in supplement form. Further a dietary deficiency of required nutrients may be at play in some inflammatory and even auto immune syndromes. Food sourced compounds are what your body depends on to function, so it is wise to check that out.
I think you may be overcooking the corticosteroid issue Chocolove. I will temper that by saying that I agree with you that there are many herbal anti-inflammatories to be tried and tested. Why not?

The greatest boost to recovery in my experience was Ayurvedic treatment which is all what we would term homeopathic. As I stated I do not recommend long term use of prednisolone but pulsed delivery and carefully managed reduction in dose.

This steroid is very effective at reducing inflammation and has been used safely for decades in doses up to 30mg/day for conditions such as asthma and associated chest infections.

I don't know what kind and quantity or the duration of your steroid use. It may be as you say that you feel they had a damaging effect on your welfare. Certainly, two people I know personally who take steroid daily in higher doses for polymyalgia could be doing better-but they have been on 30mg daily dosage for over 3 years.

I am not being patronizing when I say that individuals react as individuals to substances whether herbal or pharmaceutical, valerium makes me acutely bad tempered for example. I do not think we should be discounting the use of a well documented anti inflammatory however and still consider it a very useful adjunct to treatment.

That the physiological basis for serious neurological symptoms in ME is inflammation of the brain is I think beyond doubt. Until an effective method of resolving the likely ongoing immune-pathogen interaction in the brain is found we should be asking for empirical trials of steroid overseen in safe conditions- not waving a red flag at a very beneficial substance.

It is a poor analogy to argue from but several friends and relatives are only alive today because they underwent chemotherapy treatment for cancer. Should we say that they shouldn't have accepted the treatment because it made them feel ill?
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
@62milestogojoe Jeffrey Levy M.D. - "Corticosteroids (cortisone-type anti-inflammatory drugs) are the most abused and dangerous class of drugs. Not only do they not cure the underlying cause of the problem, they usually make the underlying problem, that is, the real problem, worse."

Supplying hormones exogenously just sends a false message to the body.

Dr. Joseph Mercola - "...the treatment of a patient with prednisone at 60 mg per day for about three months can actually cause AIDS. This treatment and doses often given to patients suffering from lung fibrosis, thrombocytopenia, or other chemically induced chronic illnesses." "...AIDS is caused by the heavy use of corticosteroids and/or cytotoxic drugs to treat many health problems. Fauci described in detail the effect of corticosteroids on the immune system. These effects resemble the immune abnormalities that are found in patients suffering from AIDS or Idiopathic CD4 T cells lymphocytopnea (ICL) which are also described by Fauci et al"

"Far from being a wonder drug 'cure all', steroids cannot cure one single condition. All they do is suppress your body's ability to express a normal response. In a few instances, this type of suppression will give the body a chance to heal itself. But more often, the effect is immediate, devastating and permanent damage. And we are only now realizing just how quickly damage can occur. Despite what doctors say, that steroids only have side effects after many years of use, there is no such thing as a safe dose.

Studies show that steroids cause permanent, debilitating effects after a single dosage.

Steriods cause Long-term damage: quick and dirty
Steroids don't take years to damage your system, as doctors maintain. Permanent, crippling damage can occur weeks after you've begun treatment such as:
  • Osteoporosis can occur within a matter of months. Steroids cause 8 per cent reduction in bone mass after four months (Ann Int Med, November 15, 1993), the equivalent of the effect on your bones of having your ovaries removed. Even low doses of inhaled steroids (400 micrograms per day) reduce bone formation (The Lancet, July 6, 1991).
  • Low doses (10-15 mg prednisone) for a year can cause cataracts (Surv Ophthalmol, 1986; 31: 260-2).
  • Topical steroids may begin to cause eye damage or raise pressure after two weeks. Extensive visual loss can be caused by a 1 per cent hydrocortisone ointment, which is available OTC (BMJ, August 20-27, 1994).
  • Rub-on steroids have caused Cushing's syndrome in children as soon as a month after treatment has begun (Arch Dis Child, 1982; 57: 204-7).
  • Inhaled steroids slowth growth in children after six weeks (Acta Ped, 1993; 82: 636-40. See also, The Lancet, December 14, 1991).
  • Dr. Al-Bayati - "High doses of corticosteroids and other immunosuppressive agents cause AIDS" Generalized immune suppression can occur, particularly at higher corticosteroid doses or with frequent administration of corticosteroids.
Side effects that may be caused by the long-term use of steroids include cataracts, muscle weakness, avascular necrosis of bone and osteoporosis. (Necrosis means death.)

Steroids reduce calcium absorption through the gastrointestinal tract which may result in osteoporosis, or thinning of the bones. Osteoporosis can lead to bone fractures, especially compression fractures of the vertebrae, causing severe back pain.

Steroid diabetes (also "steroid-induced diabetes") is a medical term referring to prolonged hyperglycemia due to glucocorticoid therapy for another medical condition.

There is also a relationship between steroids and premature arteriosclerosis, which is a narrowing of the blood vessels by fat (cholesterol) deposits. Corticosteroids cause hypercholesterolemia.

Corticosteroids can be associated with a variety of effects on the brain including hippocampal atrophy and even neuronal death, mood changes, and declarative memory impairment. Psychological side effects of steroids include irritability, agitation, euphoria or depression. Insomnia can also be a side effect. Corticosteroid induced psychoses are reported.

A COMMON OCCURRENCE AND RAPID ONSET
The following review of the topic of the neurpsychiatric sequelae of steroid treatment is based on a review of the PubMed database. Over 80 scientific articles on this topic were found and they encompass approximately the last 30 years of published research. In reviewing these articles, several conclusions can be made. First, the neuropsychiatric complications of steroid treatment are quite common. Second, the specific types of neuropsychiatric impairments comprise a range of symptoms from anxiety, irritability and impaired cognition to depression, mania, psychosis, and suicidality. Third, although the available literature fails to reveal a uniform approach to the treatment of these specific side effects, it is clear that these symptoms are common enough and potentially very severe so as to warrant aggressive and early intervention by psychiatric consultants. A number of publications on this topic appear to support symptoms of mania as being the most common psychiatric manifestation of steroid treatment8, 12, 20, 21.

University of Michigan researchers would like people to be aware of a new link they found between serious conditions and short-term steroid use:

Short-term use of steroids like prednisone has been linked to significantly higher rates of sepsis, venous thromboembolism (VTE) and fractures, according to University of Michigan experts. New findings indicate that people taking oral steroids for short-term relief are more likely to develop a potentially dangerous blood clot, develop sepsis in the months after treatment, and even break a bone compared to adults in similar circumstances who were not given the steroids... The research from the highly respected University of Michigan was published in the British Medical Journal (BMJ). The study involved examining data from 1.5 million adults with private insurance. None of the adults included in the study were elderly adults.

The most common cause of secondary adrenal insufficiency is prolonged administration of steroids to treat medical conditions such as severe asthma or kidney, joint or skin problems. This is also called iatrogenic adrenal insufficiency.

By far, the most common cause of adrenal cortical insufficiency is pharmacotherapy with synthetic glucocorticoids (0.5 to 2% of the population) (5).

A common mistake often seen in patients trying to improve the function of their hormones, whether it be thyroid hormones, sex hormones, adrenal hormones, or the grandmother of many steroid hormones - pregeneolone;
is to go directly to bioidentical hormone replacement therapy (BHRT) before they give the body a chance to restore optimal hormone health on its own.

That can have dangerous consequences. At the very least, it will certainly not solve problems caused by nutrient deficiencies and the damage from deficiencies will continue to increase without the appropriate vital nutrients. Hormones are not nutrients, they are only/just messengers. Supplying hormones exogenously just sends a false message to the body. These false messages interfere with negative feedback loops such as often encountered with the use of corticosteroids resulting in adrenal insufficiency, atrophy and failure, a common iatrogenic problem with fatal consequence. (Pregnenolone is involved in a natural negative feedback loop against CB1 receptor.) -abstracted from the writings of by Dr Joseph J Collins RN, ND who specializes in hormones.

Although doctors...prescribe steroids unnecessarily....doctors reveal the treatments they would personally avoid:
Doctors treat a wide range of conditions, but often we don't quite understand the therapies that we're offering, and why or how they work. Twelve years ago, I had colitis. One of the treatments is steroids but, as a doctor, I knew that steroids are one of those treatments we apply to many illnesses without really knowing why they work. We know they're an anti-inflammatory, but all you're doing is masking the problem, and there can be side‑effects in the long term: steroids can make your skin more fragile, they can affect your connective tissue, they can...https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jan/19/what-doctors-wont-do

Steroids, even in low doses, can kill or maim.

The hell that corticosteroids will put you through could easily make you want to die. And corticosteroids may eventually kill you, directly or indirectly through lowered immunity to infections and diseases, or the body damaging and miserable side effects.

Google "corticosteroid induced" to start your research. Also google "complications of corticosteroids." And "iatrogenic secondary adrenal insufficiency."

Complications of corticosteroid therapy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/356588
The complications of corticosteroid therapy in children are protean. Perhaps the most important of these are adrenal insufficiency after withdrawal of steroids ...


A very short dose of corticosteroids might be used as a lifesaving measure, but it is not the cure to the problem and continued use has devastating consequences.

Most doctors have little to no training in nutrition. Yet it is through food and drink that we survive and repair our bodies.

With regard to the use of chemotherapy see:
https://www.chrisbeatcancer.com/how-effective-is-chemotherapy/
http://www.burtongoldberg.com/home/...therapy-to-five-year-survival-rate-morgan.pdf
“The Contribution of Cytotoxic Chemotherapy to 5-year Survival in Adult Malignancies”.
Researchers at the Department of Radiation Oncology at the Northern Sydney Cancer Centre studied the 5-year survival rates of chemotherapy on 22 types of cancers in the US and Australia.

They studied 154,971 Americans and Australians with cancer, age 20 and older, that were treated with conventional treatments, including chemotherapy.

Only 3,306 had survival that could be credited to chemotherapy.

Study Results:
“The overall contribution of curative and adjuvant cytotoxic chemotherapy to 5-year survival in adults was estimated to be 2.3% in Australia and 2.1 % in The USA.”
 

62milestogojoe

What's a forum then?
Messages
221
Location
UK
Having spent 5 years of my career as a biomedical scientist employed by the NHS in a virology laboratory doing initial HIV screening (serology) and HIV titres by molecular PCR I can assure you that it is not steroids that cause HIV (or AIDS).
 

62milestogojoe

What's a forum then?
Messages
221
Location
UK
I absolutely agree. However the immune suppression effects of corticosteroids can make it rather similar.
Hi Chocolove, I've buried my nose in the British National Formulary, particularly 'Cautions and contra-indications of corticosteroids'.

It is a large section and much correlates to the issues you have outlined but I maintain that ( in my case) relatively low doses over short duration have been beneficial. For me, the effect may have been synergistic, since I have been supplementing with nootropics for 4 years most days and taking tablet probiotics for about the same duration.

I think there can be a temptation to throw the baby out with the bath water in ME. I've done it myself with supplements that have no apparent effect after 2 weeks. There are relatively few trials we can participate in to generate meaningful results which means that most of the self-help we do is anecdotal.

Further, since there is no established criterion for measuring efficacy of supplements/pharmaceutical interventions in ME, our own reports based perhaps on lack of symptoms are the only guide we have to whether an intervention is worth pursuing.

I realize I have stated the obvious, but believe the Osaka PET scan studies clearly show a quantifiable and reliable means of not only diagnosing ME but also monitoring the disease.

I am confident that the results I obtained are 'real' given the anecdotal rider even though the 'event horizon' for my ME remains achieving N3 sleep whilst undergoing Ayurvedic treatment. To 'prove' that physiological effect would require EEG of course.
 

Chocolove

Tournament of the Phoenix - Rise Again
Messages
548
@62milestogojoe Since you have been taking corticosteroids; how to repair the damage done? ... for rest assured that the seemingly innocuous is quite insidious, but well documented is the serious damage,.... yet rarely perceived by the doctor or patient while masked with the mania and euphoria these drugs create.

There are many sad accounts of people not bedridden or hospital bound who declined into death from use of corticosteroids, sometimes within the year of use, which you can find throughout forums, blogs, and elsewhere.
When a "patient fails therapy," (which is a common phrase used by doctors - abhorred by at least one pathologist I can reference through video), the death certificate often reads something to the effect of: died from complications of X disease, rather than due the effects of the drug prescribed - although that may well be the actual case. Check out reports from lupus and arthritis patients, asthmatics, and those with IBS, Chrones, Addison's on corticosteroid hell.

Figuring out the damage done is not always easy.To begin with, corticosteroids deplete many vital nutrients. Google "corticosteroids deplete." Use of corticosteroids quickly reduce one to the status of a failing invalid. Both patients and doctors may never recognize the ensuing damages from corticosteroids as the cause, and more often are likely to attribute such to disease progression.

Further observations from perusing research may lead you to realize some of your increased risks of injury from lowered immune function, potential bone fractures from thinning bones, hypercholesterolemia...and a whole host of other maladies. These risks necessarily lead to significant alterations in lifestyle to avoid further damage, including isolation from others to avoid contagious diseases, avoidance of high impact and even moderate impact movements, and so much more.

While you attempt to rebuild your body and health, for starters, check out this brief common drug nutrient depletion chart:
https://www.coastalpharmacyandwellness.com/drug-induced-nutrient-depletions-not-listed-on-rx/
https://www.coastalpharmacyandwelln...03/Drug-Induced-Nutrient-Depletions-Chart.pdf

Repletion of these lost nutrients is not always easily or readily done, but is absolutely critical for survival and recovery.

I am very glad you went to India and encountered some ancient healing practices. Some of the great healing agents that the western world ignores are the very spices our ancestors fought expensive wars to obtain. Google "spice wars." Our western capitalist society largely focused on profit has not only stripped nutrients from our basic food but largely avoids the expense of using these wondrous agents of flavor and healing ....instead using cheap but damaging fats, sugar and salt.

Some who have observed the marvelous traditional healing capacity of spices and herbs first hand while growing up (in India for instance, both at home and through Ayurvedic treatments); and later as scientists, conducted peer-reviewed research into the chemical components at issue in healing.

Such research has been used to make supplements aimed at standardizing and concentrating the dosage of "known" healing chemical components to a therapeutic level. Chemical isolation is also motivated by the need to remove the plant' toxins, since plants use some nasty chemical weapons to avoid being eaten. Unfortunately however, chemical isolation may remove compounds that react in a synergistically in a beneficial manner, such as the bioflavonoids that are usually excluded in the making vitamin C products Many traditional food preparation techniques including cooking, evolved to remove the plant toxins, as well as to preserve the nutrients.

Just one plant has so many compounds it would take eons to research it's chemicals in isolation, much less in combination with it's sibling chemical compounds. Luckily there are some chemical commonalities amongst plants found useful in the treatment of disease, as discovered by scientists.

Plants evolve chemically to combat evolving microbes and are probably our best resource in an age where many microbes/diseases have become drug resistant. After all, we humans are totally dependent upon plants for life and health. Scifi movies often portray humans living without a plant in sight... sadly and laughably ignorant for us to live without plants is impossible.

In your healing quest you may find these resources of significant value:
Journal of Ethnopharmacology

"Molecular Targets and Therapeutic Uses of Spices" by authors Bharat B. Aggarwal and Ajaikumar B. Kunnumakkara

https://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Ta...1502481311&sr=8-5&keywords=Bharat+B.+Aggarwal


Healing Spices: How to Use 50 Everyday and Exotic Spices to Boost Health and Beat Disease
January 4, 2011
https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Spic...1502481311&sr=8-1&keywords=Bharat+B.+Aggarwal

Dr. Aggarwal is a Professor of Medicine, Immunology, Biochemistry, Experimental Therapeutics, and Chief of Cytokine Research laboratory at the University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. He has been listed as one of the world’s most highly cited scientists...

There is of course more.
 

62milestogojoe

What's a forum then?
Messages
221
Location
UK
@62milestogojoe Since you have been taking corticosteroids; how to repair the damage done? ... for rest assured that the seemingly innocuous is quite insidious, but well documented is the serious damage,.... yet rarely perceived by the doctor or patient while masked with the mania and euphoria these drugs create.

There are many sad accounts of people not bedridden or hospital bound who declined into death from use of corticosteroids, sometimes within the year of use, which you can find throughout forums, blogs, and elsewhere.
When a "patient fails therapy," (which is a common phrase used by doctors - abhorred by at least one pathologist I can reference through video), the death certificate often reads something to the effect of: died from complications of X disease, rather than due the effects of the drug prescribed - although that may well be the actual case. Check out reports from lupus and arthritis patients, asthmatics, and those with IBS, Chrones, Addison's on corticosteroid hell.

Figuring out the damage done is not always easy.To begin with, corticosteroids deplete many vital nutrients. Google "corticosteroids deplete." Use of corticosteroids quickly reduce one to the status of a failing invalid. Both patients and doctors may never recognize the ensuing damages from corticosteroids as the cause, and more often are likely to attribute such to disease progression.

Further observations from perusing research may lead you to realize some of your increased risks of injury from lowered immune function, potential bone fractures from thinning bones, hypercholesterolemia...and a whole host of other maladies. These risks necessarily lead to significant alterations in lifestyle to avoid further damage, including isolation from others to avoid contagious diseases, avoidance of high impact and even moderate impact movements, and so much more.

While you attempt to rebuild your body and health, for starters, check out this brief common drug nutrient depletion chart:
https://www.coastalpharmacyandwellness.com/drug-induced-nutrient-depletions-not-listed-on-rx/
https://www.coastalpharmacyandwelln...03/Drug-Induced-Nutrient-Depletions-Chart.pdf

Repletion of these lost nutrients is not always easily or readily done, but is absolutely critical for survival and recovery.

I am very glad you went to India and encountered some ancient healing practices. Some of the great healing agents that the western world ignores are the very spices our ancestors fought expensive wars to obtain. Google "spice wars." Our western capitalist society largely focused on profit has not only stripped nutrients from our basic food but largely avoids the expense of using these wondrous agents of flavor and healing ....instead using cheap but damaging fats, sugar and salt.

Some who have observed the marvelous traditional healing capacity of spices and herbs first hand while growing up (in India for instance, both at home and through Ayurvedic treatments); and later as scientists, conducted peer-reviewed research into the chemical components at issue in healing.

Such research has been used to make supplements aimed at standardizing and concentrating the dosage of "known" healing chemical components to a therapeutic level. Chemical isolation is also motivated by the need to remove the plant' toxins, since plants use some nasty chemical weapons to avoid being eaten. Unfortunately however, chemical isolation may remove compounds that react in a synergistically in a beneficial manner, such as the bioflavonoids that are usually excluded in the making vitamin C products Many traditional food preparation techniques including cooking, evolved to remove the plant toxins, as well as to preserve the nutrients.

Just one plant has so many compounds it would take eons to research it's chemicals in isolation, much less in combination with it's sibling chemical compounds. Luckily there are some chemical commonalities amongst plants found useful in the treatment of disease, as discovered by scientists.

Plants evolve chemically to combat evolving microbes and are probably our best resource in an age where many microbes/diseases have become drug resistant. After all, we humans are totally dependent upon plants for life and health. Scifi movies often portray humans living without a plant in sight... sadly and laughably ignorant for us to live without plants is impossible.

In your healing quest you may find these resources of significant value:
Journal of Ethnopharmacology

"Molecular Targets and Therapeutic Uses of Spices" by authors Bharat B. Aggarwal and Ajaikumar B. Kunnumakkara

https://www.amazon.com/Molecular-Targets-Therapeutic-Uses-Spices/dp/9812837906/ref=sr_1_5?s=beauty&ie=UTF8&qid=1502481311&sr=8-5&keywords=Bharat B. Aggarwal


Healing Spices: How to Use 50 Everyday and Exotic Spices to Boost Health and Beat Disease
January 4, 2011
https://www.amazon.com/Healing-Spices-Everyday-Exotic-Disease/dp/1402776632/ref=sr_1_1?s=beauty&ie=UTF8&qid=1502481311&sr=8-1&keywords=Bharat B. Aggarwal

Dr. Aggarwal is a Professor of Medicine, Immunology, Biochemistry, Experimental Therapeutics, and Chief of Cytokine Research laboratory at the University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston. He has been listed as one of the world’s most highly cited scientists...

There is of course more.
Hi Chocolove, I'm sorry I haven't replied properly to your first post yet, let alone your second. Apologies for that. I didn't mean to appear dismissive with the HIV comment. I'll try to read through the posts tomorrow. Been busy trying to do some work for the Cognitive page to upload this afternoon, I'll tag you.

Before I get to work on that I will state that I am biased about prednisolone- since it has probably helped save my life twice.I have been asthmatic since childhood and have been hospitalized, IV drip, nebs, the full monty twice. 30mg/day doses of steroid for 10 days helped to resolve.

As someone stupid enough to start smoking with asthma at 17 and not give up until 2 years into ME I have had episodes of chest infections each year resolved by antibiotic/steroid use. I have never used large dose steroids over long periods and wouldn't be happy doing so.