1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
August 8th - What is the one thing about suffering with severe ME that the world needs to know?
Andrew Gladman brings our coverage of the Understanding & Remembrance Day for Severe ME, airing the voice of patients ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

1 disorder which traditional medicine can't cure, and alternative medicine can?

Discussion in 'Alternative Therapies' started by svetoslav80, Dec 11, 2011.

  1. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,717
    Likes:
    752
    Hi, anniekim.

    Yes, the Genovations Detoxigenomic Profile characterizes whether GSTM1 is missing or not, and it also characterizes two SNPs in the GSTP1 enzyme. Probably the 23andme.com panel includes some of the GSTs also, but I haven't sorted them out.

    Best regards,

    Rich
  2. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member

    Messages:
    588
    Likes:
    193
    U.K
    Rich, thanks for your reply. Apologies if you have already given the information elsewhere on PR but who does that test? I live in the UK. Can it be arranged from the UK? Many thanks.

    Thanks Catseye for your detailed reply too. I take it from your point of view the first step you would tackle would be healing the leaky gut, then methylation (did you follow a methylation protocol, take supps etc..?) and then finally heavy metals? Many thanks
  3. Dufresne

    Dufresne almost there...

    Messages:
    361
    Likes:
    224
    I don't think an ME/CFS sufferer could better spend 15$ than on a VCS test from Shoemaker's site. Even if the test is only 92% accurate, that means 92% of those whose problems may solely be solved by addressing biotoxins won't have to endure years of battling an inscrutable foe. A no-brainer. I find his work so persuasive I've gone on to order the HLA DR to see if I'm possibly one of the 8% false negatives. This is costing me around 600$, but as the man says, you can't afford not to.
    taniaaust1 and slayadragon like this.
  4. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

    Messages:
    109
    Likes:
    27
    SW Florida
    anniekim, that was what I had to do in my case. I had LG so bad I couldn't hardly eat or leave my bed and my hypoglycemia was horrible. My doc said to go after LG first, in particular the gut bugs. After killing off all the yeast and most of the bad bacteria (took over a year), we increased some liver supps and the methylation cycle came back on over a 2 week period where I got a huge boost in energy. I know from reading Rich's articles that was what happened. It was a big improvement in symptoms from head to toe, everything just felt better and I wasn't as bed bound. It was still a while after that before I was able to handle chelation, however.

    I've had to stay on top of the intestines ever since. I'm scared to stop taking digestive enzymes or do anything that might allow them to get bad again. I plan on getting occasional CDSAs done the rest of my life to make sure my guts/immune system remains in a healthy state. It's too important to ignore or forget about.
  5. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes:
    331
    Southern USA
    Did anyone read about Suzanne Sommer's journey with cancer in the Life extensions Magazine or see her on Dr Oz Friday? So very interesting what she has done, will be helpful now for everyone. Facinating.
  6. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member

    Messages:
    588
    Likes:
    193
    U.K
    Hi Catseye, so in your case you feel by treating the leaky gut this allowed the methylation cycle to be fully restored without taking the supps in Rich's methylation protocol?

    When you said at your worse you couldn't eat was this due to extreme exhaustion or due to nausea and bad digestion?

    I have a really big appetite and need to eat small amounts every two hours or so. So I looked up Biotics Research Glycozyme Forte tablets you mentioned which could perhaps help with this. I note you said you took two with each meal, totalling six each day. Biotics suggest three tablets daily. Did your doc suggest doubling the dose?

    Finally was it oil of oregano that killed both your bad bacteria and yeast, ie is oil of oregano effective against bacteria as well as yeast? I knew it kills yeast but I didn't know it kills bacteria. I take it you didn't use antibiotics at all which would be great. Ah, edit, re this question. Reading your past posts on this thread again, I see you say oil of oregano tackled both your bacteria and yeast if I read it correctly.

    May I also ask how you know you have a heavy metal burden? Have you done a test? If so which one? I'm interested in heavy metals but here so much conflicting info on the reliability of heavy metal testing that it would be great to pick your brains if that's ok.

    Many thanks for your time and help, much appreciated
  7. anniekim

    anniekim Senior Member

    Messages:
    588
    Likes:
    193
    U.K
    I am not knocking you doing this. I havent read enough about it all to make a comment. My only penny's worth is every practitioner says yes such a test is expensive but if it restores your health it's worth it. If it does restore one's health then of course it is and that is the carrot Yet over the years of having this illness, I've paid for many things as this or that theory could be what will restore my health, only for it not to work. I just find it hard to decide whether to fork out more money which I have very little of for something that may or may not work....i hope this proves to be a fruitful path for you to go down on
    stefny likes this.
  8. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

    Messages:
    109
    Likes:
    27
    SW Florida
    Yes, it seemed like once I lightened the load on the liver by fixing the gut and giving it some supps to help it along (liver cleanse pills, MSM, etc.), it began working much better. I had had hep c which left me with some liver damage, though. So I had to take special care of mine, and still do. I had tried the supps for the methylation protocol. I even shelled out for the expensive RNA. I know I got some energy from the folate but it wasn't enough to restore methylation. I tried that long before I started aggressively going after LG. I had kinda sorta been going at it myself alone but I realized after awhile I needed an expert's help. So I found this doc and when he told me what to eat and what to avoid and added all these new supps, it was a very aggressive plan compared to my half ass attempt. Plus we were using CDSA tests to monitor progress to make sure stuff was really dying off like it was supposed to, and that certain enzyme systems were improving.

    I couldn't hardly eat because I wasn't making enough stomach acid or enzymes so eating made me feel bad. When your liver gets hit with undigested fats and proteins (which stomach acid breaks down), you really feel it, I felt like I was dying after a meal containing fats or proteins, like chicken or nuts. I would eat really small amounts. But after I got on the digestive enzymes and the betaine hcl, I was able to eat a meal without feeling bad - I really needed those things. We could tell from the CDSA that I wasn't making enough stomach acid or digestive enzymes. I never got nausea, and I have been so tired I could barely chew, but it was mostly this horrible dying feeling from my liver being overwhelmed constantly. In the beginning, I was taking up to four 650 mg capsules of betaine hcl with every meal. And that's with like only a drumstick worth of meat - that's how badly I needed acid with my food. I wouldn't get even a hint of heartburn from that. Eventually, I would, though, and was able to cut it way down as things improved.

    About the Bio-glycozyme Forte, yes he put me on a larger dose. He usually did that with the supps I was taking, it was always more than they recommended. I'm sure it was because digestion wasn't working properly and so I wasn't able to absorb nutrients in sufficient quantities unless I took high doses. None of the supplements he put me on back then for LG made me feel bad. It was only later when we tried some kidney support that I would get run down after a few days and feel bad, probably because my liver didn't like it.

    Also, my doc didn't really know about methylation. When I mentioned it he didn't know what I was talking about exactly, but he could still tell from the CDSAs that my liver was being overwhelmed. When he put me on liver supps to restore its function, he was just going by the lab tests. I kept on with the folate from Rich's protocol throughout all of this, though. And I even still take it to this day. Besides the folate, I also take other bioactive forms of B vitamins (like niacinamide, p5p, pantethine) because the liver has to convert these and I know I have some damage from the hep c still. So many of the supps I still take are with my liver in mind, like liver cleanse pills.

    It's funny to look back on all of this and see how simple it sounds. But at the time I was learning it all and I was so thrilled when it was apparent that it was working. I credit Dr. Farr with curing my LG, and I really picked his brain to understand everything I was taking and why during that time. I was taking handfuls of pills several times a day. It really was an insane amount of pills, but that was what it took to do the job.
  9. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes:
    378
    twitpic.com/photos/SlayaDragon
    It seems to me that Catseye has done a great job at focusing on the issues in her health and figuring out ways to address them.

    However, I'd like to point out that during the process, she's been living in the Caribbean. In general, that's one of the places that people with ME/CFS do really well.

    http://locationseffect.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=caribbean

    http://locationseffect.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=effect&action=display&thread=200

    Depending on how sick people are, visiting the Caribbean can sometimes be enough to make them well in and of itself.

    I am sure that the things that Catseye has done have been important in terms of allowing her body to heal.

    However, based on what I've seen of the Locations Effect, I wouldn't necessarily expect them to have the same results for people who are living in places with problematic outdoor air or for people who are living in a particularly moldy home.

    Best, Lisa
  10. uni

    uni

    Messages:
    53
    Likes:
    2
    Hi Rich,

    I have tried coconut oil before, but never in large quantities alone. Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a try!
  11. uni

    uni

    Messages:
    53
    Likes:
    2
    Hi Catseye,

    Thanks for your detailed reply. It seems that you have gotten good success with getting your leaky gut under control.

    I definately have hypoglycemic tendencies. I have to eat every 3 or 4 hours. I also frequently wake up to eat in the middle of the night like you said! My source of carbs comes primarily from rice right now - I don't tolerate grains well in general. Rice has some effects on me, but the least out of the others (except for maybe buckwheat). I guess I should start trying to gradually lower my carbs and maybe try out those supplements you mentioned.

    I have a couple of questions for you - So do you still have to stick with a low carb diet now that your dysbiosis is much better?

    And does this Dr. Farr guy consult over the phone? I'm wary of seeing non-MDs because I feel like they give a bunch of random supplements and use a lot non-proven therapies, but of course, sometimes MDs do even more damage. Does his other patients have good results? And what does he charge?

    Thanks
  12. u&iraok

    u&iraok Senior Member

    Messages:
    151
    Likes:
    30
    U.S.
    Oregano oil works on candida but you must rotate it with other substances because candida will become immune to something you use too long. Rotate every week or every four days to be on the safe side.

    I'm glad you mention that probiotics will not kill or crowd out candida. People need to get out from under that misunderstanding. You're just wasting your money if you take probiotics before the candida is killed.

    Regarding Leaky Gut, which you take care of after you've cured the dysbiosis (candida, parasites, bad bacteria), here's something that works:

    Permavite

    Ingredients:

    Cellulose 3.7 g
    L-Glutamine 3.7 g
    N-Acetyl-D- Glucosamine (shrimp, crab, lobster) 185 mg
    Slippery Elm (Ulmus rubra) (Bark) Powder 110 mg
    Stevia (Stevia rebaudiana) (Leaves) Extract 30 mg
    Glandular Complex with Epithelial Growth Factor 70 mg
    MSM (Methylsulfonylmethane)
  13. u&iraok

    u&iraok Senior Member

    Messages:
    151
    Likes:
    30
    U.S.
    Ditto. I'm going to try two tablespoons at a time instead of one, which is what I take now.
  14. aquariusgirl

    aquariusgirl Senior Member

    Messages:
    947
    Likes:
    91
    Yep, I'm trying this too. Thanks for mentioning it Rich.
  15. slayadragon

    slayadragon Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,091
    Likes:
    378
    twitpic.com/photos/SlayaDragon
    Here are a bunch of articles which suggest that DON, a relatively weak trichothocene toxin, can cause the sort of damage to the intestinal lining that are precisely what we see in CFS. Stachybotrys is an indoor mold that has been shown in other studies to produce toxins that are much stronger than those produced by DON, but that have the same effects.

    Insofar as people are living in moldy homes with Stachy growth, they are going to be inhaling the toxins. The body then will attempt to remove the toxins through the intestinal tract -- thus predisposing the body to the sorts of damage that we see in CFS.

    Best, Lisa

    *

    Sergent T, Parys M, Garsou S, Pussemier L, Schneider YJ, Larondelle Y. Deoxynivalenol transport across human intestinal Caco-2 cells and its effects on cellular metabolism at realistic intestinal concentrations. Toxicol Lett. 2006 Jul 1;164(2):167-76. PMID: 16442754.

    Li M, Cuff CF, Pestka JJ. T-2 toxin impairment of enteric reovirus clearance in the mouse associated with suppressed immunoglobulin and IFN-gamma responses. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2006 Aug 1;214(3):318-25. PMID: 16504231

    Kouadio JH, Dano SD, Moukha S, Mobio TA, Creppy EE. Effects of combinations of Fusarium mycotoxins on the inhibition of macromolecular synthesis, malondialdehyde levels, DNA methylation and fragmentation, and viability in Caco-2 cells. Toxicon. 2007 Mar 1;49(3):306-17. PMID: 17109910.

    Moon Y, Yang H, Lee SH. Modulation of early growth response gene 1 and interleukin-8 expression by ribotoxin deoxynivalenol (vomitoxin) via ERK1/2 in human epithelial intestine 407 cells. Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2007 Oct 19;362(2):256-62. PMID: 17707346

    Van De Walle J, Romier B, Larondelle Y, Schneider YJ. Influence of deoxynivalenol on NF-kappaB activation and IL-8 secretion in human intestinal Caco-2 cells. Toxicol Lett. 2008 Apr 1;177(3):205-14. PMID: 18343055

    Moon Y, Yang H, Park SH. Hypo-responsiveness of interleukin-8 production in human embryonic epithelial intestine 407 cells independent of NF-kappaB pathway: new lessons from endotoxin and ribotoxic deoxynivalenol. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2008 Aug 15;231(1):94-102. PMID: 18485432

    Yang H, Park SH, Choi HJ, Moon Y. Epithelial cell survival by activating transcription factor 3 (ATF3) in response to chemical ribosome-inactivating stress. Biochem Pharmacol. 2009 Mar 15;77(6):1105-15. PMID: 19101521
  16. Catseye

    Catseye Senior Member

    Messages:
    109
    Likes:
    27
    SW Florida
    I PM'd you.
  17. pine108kell

    pine108kell Senior Member

    Messages:
    140
    Likes:
    26
    I am not a medical historian, nor am I someone who could say whether one treatment is definitely "alternative" or definitely "traditional" or when "alternative" morphs into "traditional".

    But this is obvious to me--traditional medicine has many, many flaws, but it has improved and prolonged the lives of billions of people. Look at antibiotics, HIV/AIDS, surgical procedures etc. It doesn't have all the answers but is helping with heart disease and cancer. I also do not see that any of these helpful medications or procedures derived from alternative medicine, nor do I see any examples where alternative medicine is even an order of magnitude as effective.

    Unfortunately, traditional medicine has failed CFS so far, but so has alternative medicine. I am happy for people who have improved their lives with mold avoidance and a thousand other treatments and herbs. I've tried many of them myself (still do hyperbaric O2) and don't blame anyone else for trying them. My view is that, with a few exceptions, that are not generally effective.

    Maybe the OP was really getting at the question: Which will eventually have a better chance of curing, or at least limiting the devastating effects of, CFS and other incurable illnesses--traditional or alternative? My answer is that I am not optimistic about our knowledge of CFS or how little current research is conducted but I would definitely go "all in" that traditional medicine is our only real hope. I would have the same answer for Alzheimer's, MS, RA and others.
  18. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes:
    331
    Southern USA
    I think the key is the integrative MD. With supplements, the brands and doses are important. Also, the combinations you put together. Reg. Med is good for some things but there are many, many things that can be improved with alternative. Using complementary med is best. Best of both worlds. Medicine here in America is good at that.

    I have had amazing treatment with both. I would not want to choose. You have to have both working together. Freedom to have supplements and all forms of treatment is everything.
    madietodd likes this.
  19. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

    Messages:
    5,055
    Likes:
    3,224
    N. California
    I would not agree with this at all. According to an article that appeared in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) back in 2000 (written by Dr. Barbara Starfield of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health) DOCTORS are the THIRD LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH IN THE US, KILLING 225,000 PEOPLE EACH YEAR.

    ALL THESE ARE DEATHS PER YEAR:
    12,000 -- unnecessary surgery
    7,000 -- medication errors in hospitals
    20,000 -- other errors in hospitals
    80,000 -- infections in hospitals

    For more:http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2000/07/30/doctors-death-part-one.aspx

    Every time I have seen a doctor, I've ended up either verbally abused, or damaged from the advice they've given me. There are of course some decent doctors out there who know how to work with CFS, but I personally have not met them. I much prefer TCM and acupuncture, because they "do no harm."
    stefny likes this.
  20. pine108kell

    pine108kell Senior Member

    Messages:
    140
    Likes:
    26
    Did the study point out the millions and millions who are helped by conventional therapies? My dad has lived for 20+ years with heart disease because of procedures and treatments. I also do not go to doctors because most are insulting and do not help with my particular condition; however, I am objective enough to see the difference between my condition and general medicine. I would never say that there are not HUGE problems with modern medicine but how could anyone question that it has improved the quality of life for the general population, if not me in particular?

    Also, I wasn't saying that I think traditional medicine is CURRENTLY better than alternative for CFS--both are not effective--only that traditional medicine will have a better chance of solutions if it ever gets the attention needed.
    peggy-sue likes this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page