• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

Search results

  1. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    One final comparison. James Rimmer, who proposes there is a disability-related 'Deconditioning Syndrome' included some unpublished data in his paper (ie this data was not peer-reviewed) for VO2max for patients with disabilities: I don't think I can reproduce the graph, but for 30-39 year olds...
  2. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    New population 'norms' could classify CFS patients as deconditioned but the new 'norms' may be unrepresentative Slight complication: I've argued in this thread that most of the studies purporting to show that CFS patients are deconditioned fail to use properly matched healthy controls. But...
  3. O

    The pathway from glandular fever to CFS: can the CBT model provide the map?

    Maybe I have, at last: Fatal Flaw in Glandular Fever model? This study found that psychological factors at baseline (initial infection) predicted which patients went on to develop CF (Chronic Fatigue) or CFS, and which did not. Or rather which psychological factors had a rather modest impact...
  4. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Thanks for digging this out: problem is, cancer is another area where deconditioning is argued without too much evidence to back it up. That oncology practice article is based on an interivew; I'd seen the claims before that activities of daily living could make cancer patients go anaerobic...
  5. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Thanks all for the likes - I'm not sure if this is a compliment or a determined effort (e12 tried very hard here) to make sure I will keep my promise of leaving the forum having reached my life's goal... Will in fact be moving on once Deconditioning is done and dusted, but i'm not quite done...
  6. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Woohoo! Thanks, user9876, I have now achieved my life's goal. I'm outta here...
  7. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Thanks. Cort has said he's willingto use this as a front page piece and I'd like to see it written up for a journal since there is so little challenge to the prevailing 'wisdom' in CFS, but not sure who'd take it. Really good point about rehab for those recovering from longs stays in hospital...
  8. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Finally, a summary of the main evidence from this thread: Deconditioning and its role in CFS The idea that inactivity will lead to a vicious cycle of deconditioning, increased fatigue and further reduced activity is widespread in medicine. In the case of CFS, some have argued that whatever...
  9. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Thanks, Firestormm. I've been off doing other things for a while, but this paper caught my eye, with its longitudinal (rather than usual cross-sectional) method and conclusion that "These data do not support models that posit associations between CF [Chronic Fatigue] and deconditioning."...
  10. O

    A cost effectiveness of the PACE trial

    I'm pretty sure it's actually Simon Wessely's prevalence rate for Fukuda-defined CFS ie 1 in 40. I'm surprised that a man with a PhD in epidemiology would publish such an unlikely figure but it happened. If you read the thread you will see there were some questionable methodology, including...
  11. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    I've often wondered if things are much easier if a doctor is the patient; not a whole load by the sound of things.
  12. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    You are not alone there. Good on you for doing such important work. Good luck. Given you've already got two DLA Appeal wins to your name I fancy your chances against the NHS. ;) A fair question but all I really know about it the rehabilitation of fitness itself, which tends to be pretty...
  13. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Inexplicable physical problems that only made sense by invoking depression and anxiety? I assume they diagnosed you with CFS.
  14. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Thanks, Don Q for all those insights. Your VO2max was extraordinarily low - from studies I've seen, VO2 is usually around 5-6 for resting indiviudals vs 30-ish for VO2 max. I particularly like your map vs terrain analogy, which chimes with my experience with some of those who treated me. They...
  15. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Hi Firestormm Lots of really interesting points there, though I'm afraid I lost the thread a bit at times so excuse me if I've misunderstood bits. Re Deconditioning, Exercise and Graded Activity Thanks, those definitions look good to me too. Hope you'll be posting the fruits of your work on...
  16. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Think it makes sense: you mean that what is readily measurable for trials is not necessarily a very accurate reflection of the real world exertion of patients in the trial? Good point. And a key question is are you deconditioned relative to very sedentary but healthy people in the population...
  17. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    thanks! Certainly I have more time for the concept of Graded Activity, which would include mental exertion too, is relative to current capablility and isn't directly linked to fitness or tackling deconditioning. Not come across anything like that, but please be my guest...
  18. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    I guess that's what we are here for.
  19. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    CFS patients in Graded Exercise trials not deconditioned Graded exercise is based on the premise that CFS is perpetuated by inactivity and deconditioning, and that graded exercise will reverse this process leading to recovery/improvement. But is this premise true? Two studies of Graded...
  20. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Another Peter White study showing CFS patients are not deconditioned, this one from 2005: Is the chronic fatigue syndrome an exercise phobia? A case control study They measured both fitness with VO2max, and activity using actometers as an objective measure, concluding VO2max (ml O2/min/kg)...
  21. O

    PACE Trial and PACE Trial Protocol

    SF-36 and Chalder Fatigue scores for healthy age & sex matched healthy controls to CFS patients There's been some discussion about how appropriate were the 'population norms' used by PACE for determining how many CFS patients were within the normal range. So I was interested to see some...
  22. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Just worth pointing out that the Wallman submaximal paper mentioned earlier in this thread also found RPE consistently higher in CFS patients than matched controls, this time 2-2.5 RPE (Perceived Exertion) points higher. It's higher in pretty well every study I've seen but these two studies...
  23. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    No deconditioning or abnormal muscle function - but more effort needed and post-exertional fatigue in CFS Exercise performance and fatiguability in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (Gibson 1993) Another maximal exertion study (n=12): this one didn't use VO2max, unfortunately, but...
  24. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Another paper, this time for Adolescents, Katz 2010. Exercise tolerance testing in a prospective cohort of adolescents with chronic fatigue syndrome and recovered controls following infectious mononucleosis. Full text inc tables available here The study compared patients with a diagnosis of...
  25. O

    Exercise Tolerance Testing in Adolescents with CFS and Recovered Controls after Mono

    Full text inc tables available here Just wanted to pull out the deconditioning/fitness levels as VO2 max from the paper: VO2max, ml/min/kg CFS patients: 37.4 Recovered: 40.9 The differences were not statistically significant. Population norms for group of this age that is 85% female is...
  26. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    I'm confused, those quotes are from the Bazelman 2001 paper. I normally try to ignore inflammatory comments in these papers but the Fulcher & White first paper (1997) deserved a special mention for being so extreme: Or something else, perhaps? I find the timing of this interesting as in...
  27. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Some interesting comments from the Bazelmans discussion section a) arguing against exercise programmes and b) concluding that factors other than deconditioning account for fatigue, impairment and low levels of activity in CFS patients
  28. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    Think I mentioned already this is very much the Nijmegen perspective, and this seems to be is the key paper, concluding: "Physical deconditioning does not seem a perpetuating factor in CFS" The key figures are: VO2max (ml O2/ml/kg) CFS= 27.9 Control=31.7 The difference was non-significant...
  29. O

    Is there any evidence that deconditioning alone causes pain and fatigue?

    You know me too well. And I now wonder if biopsychosocialists have a perpetual headache. Love 'citation-based medicine'.
  30. O

    data on low O2 mechanisms in CFS?

    Hi Sherlock There's a separate thread on Deconditioning, and on balance most CFS patients - at least those well enough to attend outpatient clinics where most research takes place - have low but still normal VO2max levels, comparable with well-matched sedentary controls. See this post in...