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Any experience exercise (aerobic) vs lifting

heapsreal

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Messages
10,089
Location
australia (brisbane)
I was in good physical shape when I got sick and I have seen what deconditioning does to patients. To me, its a survival strategy to exercise, and it promotes mitochondrial biogenesis, e.g. more mitochondria to make energy, plus brain derived neurotropic factor, and other things that are beneficial.

I've lifted weights for over 30 years and know what I am doing. I am careful and work within my energy envelope, and my workouts have included 3-4 naps on the gym floor, stopping when I got dizzy and crashed. I was able to lift weights during the period I was sleeping 16 hours a day.

At this point, though I've improved a lot, I'm still about 70-75% of normal. I am not capable of working full time - I work 12-20 hours a week, mostly less than 5 hours on any one day. If I work more, I get PEM.

I've found that though I've gotten stronger, its pretty impossible to set any goals. Its better if I just do the best job I can given how I feel on any day, and I don't exercise if I feel slammed... I listen to my body and exercise at about 80% of what I think my limit is.

You have probably told me before but are you also on trt? Myself i found being on trt greatly improved my recovery from lifting weights but i try to train twice a week and am lifting quite heavy. I do notice i do need to take 2 weeksoff every few weeks. I also train in low reps so as not to increase my breathing too much which i think helps reduce the need for aerobic energy when exercising.

It doesnt get mentioned much but cfsme is very catabolic so optimizing hormones i think helps alot.
 

ryan31337

Senior Member
Messages
664
Location
South East, England
Aerobic - if I do 15 mins I am OK. Anything above that and I tend to struggle with heart palps and fatigue afterwards.
Lifting heavy stuff can only be a few minutes and for days after I ache all over and feel fatigue.

However, I find that if I do the same weights (I have 35lb dumbells) week after week then my body seems to get attuned to them. I do bench press, pullovers etc. These produce no PEM now. My body gets used to them but if I do something "different" then I feel it next day.

This has been my experience in the past too. During a good period of remission I was able to very slowly build my swimming capacity to quite respectable levels without PEM. But if I used a different muscle group I would suffer for the next few days with terrible PEM.

This could be from trying a different swimming stroke, or doing some gardening for example. Any attempt to lift weights (even very light weights) had massive PEM implications despite me being relatively fit with strength & muscle tone from the swimming.

Unfortunately a relapse a couple of years ago has stopped me exercising all together now. I am due for a muscle biopsy in a couple of weeks and am curious to see if there may be something relevant to these experiences there.
 

Wishful

Senior Member
Messages
5,684
Location
Alberta
@Learner1
I'm sorry that it didn't work for you. I've been continuing to recommend it to others, because you're the first person to report that it didn't work for you. I was expecting dozens of people to try it and report it, but only two people volunteered their results.

Hopefully it will be effective for some other people, and we can figure out what else we have in common, such as PEM triggered by muscle damage rather than aerobic use.
 
Messages
87
Trt is testosterone replacement therapy, hrt for men.
Your profile i see your female so probably not relevant ??
Hegh high did you have to go on Testosterone to get an improvement? Do you have labs and know your typical before and after trt levels? What form of testosterone did you use?
 

heapsreal

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Messages
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Location
australia (brisbane)
Hegh high did you have to go on Testosterone to get an improvement? Do you have labs and know your typical before and after trt levels? What form of testosterone did you use?

My free testosterone has been below range since i first tested it in 2002. Total T pre trt was 9 in the australian ranges and 300 in american ranges. Initially on 250mg on testosterone enanthate per week which put my total T at about 1000, free T was well above the high range. Have reduced the dose to 125mg per week but no bloods yet at this dose. Generally 125mg gets guys to the 600 total T range which is ok but varies from i dividual. Im aiming for total T of 800.

I have used a transdermal T cream and it did very little. Injections are a very noticeable improvement in wellbeing, aches and pains etc. Not many guys notice much from transdermal and it seems many dont absorb it very well.

Another reason i went with this treatment was its shown to improve immune function in hiv immune suppressed men. My own neutrophil count has been low for along time, this has come up to normal on trt. There is a study i read that shows an increase in nk function in hiv men on trt.

So it has many benefits to guys with cfsme unfortunately its often overlooked. Its a big part i think in the treatment of men with cfsme.

Its worth getting tested for .
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
I found Mestinon alone spiked my blood pressure, which was bad in my case. If you have low BP, it could be a benefit.

The dysautonomia specialist I see has me taking it with propranolol 3x a day, in small doses of both (5mg propranolol and 10mg pyridostigmine), which has improved my symptoms of dizziness and crashing.
 

BadBadBear

Senior Member
Messages
571
Location
Rocky Mountains
I found Mestinon alone spiked my blood pressure, which was bad in my case. If you have low BP, it could be a benefit.

The dysautonomia specialist I see has me taking it with propranolol 3x a day, in small doses of both (5mg propranolol and 10mg pyridostigmine), which has improved my symptoms of dizziness and crashing.

Mestonin has a warning for people with low hr or low bp (both I think but can't remember offhand) but I cannot tolerate it as it drops my already low BP and hr.I

When Famvir had raised both hr and bp, I did pretty well on it. But once my body returned to normal for me, I had to discontinue it.

IIRC it has warnings for patients with either high or low bp.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
Thanks for pointing this out. Mestinon can change blood pressure. It has warnings for patients with low blood pressure and heart rate. Propranolol can lower both as well.

I trialled propranolol for 3 weeks, then pyridostigmine for 2 weeks. My BP spiked, so I stopped, and consulted with my doctors, who decided I should try both together and adjusted the doses.

The pharmacy kept flagging the interaction between the drugs of potentially dangerously low BP and heart rate. In my case, as my heart rate and BP ran high, this was actually desirable.

I'd definitely suggest being closely monitored by doctors if one is on either of these medications. Propranolol may also affect levels of calcium, magnesium, potassium, and CoQ10.
 

panckage

Senior Member
Messages
777
Location
Vancouver, BC
Jogging for 15min will give PEM for a few days but I can go on a exercise bike for 15-60min and am usually ok.

Strength training doesn't give me PEM I think but I am usually dizzy during (specifically after a set) and I usually need to lie down between exercises
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
Ah...actually, my doctor and I have found the DUTCH test to be be very helpful. I take small amounts of pregnenolone, hydrocortisone, DHEA, testosterone, estriol and progesterone. And T3 and T4.

They do help. ;)
what source of pregnenolone do you use? i have not had good experiences with it and I tried a source lauded to be very pure (health natura's). It was expensive and also I had put a lot of mental eggs in the basket of it working. maybe the dosages were too high.

This is one area I do disagree with ray peat on, b/c he suggested that pregnenolone has no negative effects, and the negative effects would be because of impurities... I can't see how impurities could have that much of an effect. But idk. THe only supposedly good source I haven't tried yet is haidut's at idealabsdc.com
 

frozenborderline

Senior Member
Messages
4,405
Thanks for pointing this out. Mestinon can change blood pressure. It has warnings for patients with low blood pressure and heart rate. Propranolol can lower both as well.

I trialled propranolol for 3 weeks, then pyridostigmine for 2 weeks. My BP spiked, so I stopped, and consulted with my doctors, who decided I should try both together and adjusted the doses.

The pharmacy kept flagging the interaction between the drugs of potentially dangerously low BP and heart rate. In my case, as my heart rate and BP ran high, this was actually desirable.

I'd definitely suggest being closely monitored by doctors if one is on either of these medications. Propranolol may also affect levels of calcium, magnesium, potassium, and CoQ10.
do you know what the cause of the high bp is? Is it any of the drugs you're on? I have been running slightly high and can't tell if it's due to anxiety, naltrexone (which acts sort of like a corticosteroid), or some CFS-caused cardiac issue
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
do you know what the cause of the high bp is? Is it any of the drugs you're on?
I believe its multiple factors, including genes (ACE deletion), low nitric oxide, and POTS antibodies.
I have been running slightly high and can't tell if it's due to anxiety, naltrexone (which acts sort of like a corticosteroid), or some CFS-caused cardiac issue
Anxiety would be a chemical imbalance - fixing methylation or trying GABA, glycine, taurine, or theanine might help.

Naltrexone didn't change my BP at all.

Hyperadrenergic POTS caused by a virus?
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
what source of pregnenolone do you use? i have not had good experiences with it and I tried a source lauded to be very pure (health natura's). It was expensive and also I had put a lot of mental eggs in the basket of it working. maybe the dosages were too high.
Pure Encasulations 10mg.

My doctor started me on 30 trying to help my cognitive function, then raised it to 150. I had massive estrogen overload symptoms within 2 days and my blood has a high level of estradiol.

10mg is plenty :thumbsup: