• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

SPINA THYR a research tool to evaluate thyroid function, deiodinases activity, TH resistance

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
sorry, will try to slow down...
Please don't, not for my sake... I don't know when I will have the energy to read and understand again.

Also, I would like to ask a favor to anyone who has the software already installed to please run my numbers

TSH 5,05 mUI/L
FT4 1,08 ng/dL
T3 97,9 ng/dL
FT3 2,66 pg/mL

I am taking
T4 22,5 mcg
T3 6,5 mcg
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,384
Location
Austria
TSH 5,05 mUI/L
FT4 1,08 ng/dL
T3 97,9 ng/dL
FT3 2,66 pg/mL

I am taking
T4 22,5 mcg
T3 6,5 mcg

Result:

GT: <Nicht berechenbar>
GD: <Nicht berechenbar>
sGD: <Nicht berechenbar>
sTSHI: <Nicht berechenbar>
TSHI: 3,5
TTSI: 390*

As far as I understand till now means high thyroid hormone cellular resistance.

PS: the amounts of TH taken doesn't matter with SPINA. Just can't calculate certain parameters as seen above with replacement.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,384
Location
Austria
Maybe the higher cortisol can be explained by the ayurvedic herbs or orthomolecular supplements affecting your HPT/ HPA axis.
You mean higher in excretion and lower in serum?
What do you mean by "excretion"? The serum level and intracellular level are not the same. What matters is how much T3 gets taken up by the cells.

A misunderstanding. I responded to your quote about higher cortisol. Which you somehow oversaw.

p.s. I gotta say that I admire how well organized you are with your data! I wish I was that good with mine.

Talking about it, I also take supplements against my obsessions.. ;) No complete remission to report in this respect yet.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
As far as I understand till now means high thyroid hormone cellular resistance.
Thank you!

I used to take a higher dose of T3, but recently had to lower it. Does it mean that the resistance increased or lowered?

Could you please calculate older results?

From 1 year ago (also taking hormone replacement):
TSH 4.41 mUI/L
Total T4 6.26 mcg/dL
Total T3 108.30 ng/dL
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
A misunderstanding. I responded to your quote about higher cortisol. Which you somehow oversaw.



Talking about it, I also take supplements against my obsessions.. ;) No complete remission to report in this respect yet.
Sorry, my problem at the moment is ADHD so I tend to read too fast and sometimes I skip over things.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
Thank you!

I used to take a higher dose of T3, but recently had to lower it. Does it mean that the resistance increased or lowered?

Could you please calculate older results?

From 1 year ago (also taking hormone replacement):
TSH 4.41 mUI/L
Total T4 6.26 mcg/dL
Total T3 108.30 ng/dL
These are total T3 and T4. We need your free, unbound numbers fT3 and fT4 to run SPINA. Did you lower because you felt like it was too much for you? The resistance could be your adaptive mechanism to high doses of thyroid, and it may take a while for the effect to subside as your body adjusts. However, if you were too high your TSH should have lowered itself but it didn't - so something doesn't quite add up. It could be that either you mistook atypical hypo for being hyper or you don't have an appropriate TSH response.
Let me know more about what you felt that prompted you to lower your dose.
 

pamojja

Senior Member
Messages
2,384
Location
Austria
These are total T3 and T4. We need your free, unbound numbers fT3 and fT4 to run SPINA.

One can change the entry to total T3 and T4. However, with TH replacement checked none gets calculated. Unchecked these would be the result: (useless in your case)

GT: 1,44 pmol/s
GD: 21,92 nmol/s
sGD: -1,62
TSHI: <Nicht berechenbar>
sTSHI: <Nicht berechenbar>
TTSI: <Nicht berechenbar>
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
However, if you were too high your TSH should have lowered itself but it didn't - so something doesn't quite add up.
I read that vit A deficiency may cause high TSH. I also read that vit A stimulates bile acid production (there are so many threads on thyroid now and some could be linked by this info - I posted my references somewhere, can look them up again if there is interest). I think I may be low in vit A since taking Isotretinein and Accutane back in 2009.

Let me know more about what you felt that prompted you to lower your dose.
Back in December I took Flaxseed oil + Borage oil which caused me an adrenal crisis and I stopped tolerating HRT even though I was hypo. I had to titrate them back and noticed that I do not tolerate anything higher than 22.5mcg T4 (get jittery) and had to eliminate the extra 5mcg T3 I used to take in the evening and had to lower the 7.5 to 6.5mcg T3 I take combined with T4. I am looking forward to going back up to my usual dosages because I am feeling worse now (lower cognition and mood). Thanks for asking.
 

pattismith

Senior Member
Messages
3,932
I read that vit A deficiency may cause high TSH. I also read that vit A stimulates bile acid production (there are so many threads on thyroid now and some could be linked by this info - I posted my references somewhere, can look them up again if there is interest). I think I may be low in vit A since taking Isotretinein and Accutane back in 2009.


Back in December I took Flaxseed oil + Borage oil which caused me an adrenal crisis and I stopped tolerating HRT even though I was hypo. I had to titrate them back and noticed that I do not tolerate anything higher than 22.5mcg T4 (get jittery) and had to eliminate the extra 5mcg T3 I used to take in the evening and had to lower the 7.5 to 6.5mcg T3 I take combined with T4. I am looking forward to going back up to my usual dosages because I am feeling worse now (lower cognition and mood). Thanks for asking.

did you ever tryed a lower T4 and higher T3?
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
1.
I read that vit A deficiency may cause high TSH. I also read that vit A stimulates bile acid production (there are so many threads on thyroid now and some could be linked by this info - I posted my references somewhere, can look them up again if there is interest). I think I may be low in vit A since taking Isotretinein and Accutane back in 2009.


Back in December I took Flaxseed oil + Borage oil which caused me an adrenal crisis and I stopped tolerating HRT even though I was hypo. I had to titrate them back and noticed that I do not tolerate anything higher than 22.5mcg T4 (get jittery) and had to eliminate the extra 5mcg T3 I used to take in the evening and had to lower the 7.5 to 6.5mcg T3 I take combined with T4. I am looking forward to going back up to my usual dosages because I am feeling worse now (lower cognition and mood). Thanks for asking.

@Gondwanaland
Hmm... I remember at one point I was taking a lot of omega acids and it significantly worsened my thyroid function too. I'm not sure why. But I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it was necessarily an adrenal crisis, it could have changed some other parameters in your body that affected thyroid homeostasis, maybe through the effect on bile acids, VLDL, apoB100 (which regulates T1AM). What did it feel like beside jittery? Did you have change in your blood pressure, pulse, orthostatics?

Retinoic acid definitely does play an important role in thyroid metabolism. Are you taking activated vitamin A or beta-carotene? Pure retinol is hard to find but Solgar sells it.

Do you have any labs before you went on thyroid replacement? Just to see what your virgin SPINA values were. Have you ever tried augmenting with iodine or lithium?

When T3 is low, keeping T4 higher is actually counterproductive as you have a much weaker hormone that competes with the hormone you really want and it will make you feel even more hypothyroid. For me both excess T4 and T3 made me jittery but in very different ways.

One other thing that everyone with low T3 should also consider is that apparently there are antibodies against T3.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23100861
 
Last edited:

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
@Gondwanaland The other possible explanation I can think of is that too much omega 6 worsened your thyroid autoimmunity if you have autoimmune thyroiditis, like me.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
Hmm... I remember at one point I was taking a lot of omega acids and it significantly worsened my thyroid function too. I'm not sure why.
According to Ray Peat, fatty acids cause hypothyroidism, I don't remember the explanation though.
But I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it was necessarily an adrenal crisis, it could have changed some other parameters in your body that affected thyroid homeostasis
In effect, I had an insulin assay and had a severe insulin resistance during the crisis. So I assume plant oils cause much more harm than sugar on that front.
Did you have change in your blood pressure, pulse, orthostatics?
I don't think so. I borrowed the BP monitor from my mother for a few days and everything seemed normal.
Are you taking activated vitamin A or beta-carotene? Pure retinol is hard to find but Solgar sells it.
I am eating beef liver 1x weekly. Today I took a cap of CLO for the 1st time.
Do you have any labs before you went on thyroid replacement? Just to see what your virgin SPINA values were.
Mar 2012
TSH 4,6 mUI/L
T4 7,5 mcg/dL
T3 92 ng/dL

Aug 2013
TSH 4,4 mUI/L
T4 8 mcg/dL
T3 111 ng/dL

Have you ever tried augmenting with iodine or lithium?
I take neither one. Once I took Norwegian Kelp for 3 days and felt bad. Testing showed very high TSH (~15), and since then it tended to be around 5 - 6. It would make sense that it further depleted me of vit A.
For me both excess T4 and T3 made me jittery but in very different ways.
Yes, excess T4 makes my body nervous and excess T3 makes my mind nervous. It seems that replacement T3 goes all to the brain.
@Gondwanaland The other possible explanation I can think of is that too much omega 6 worsened your thyroid autoimmunity if you have autoimmune thyroiditis, like me.
Yes, autoimmune. Indeed autoimmunity seems to get fired up by omega 6.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
According to Ray Peat, fatty acids cause hypothyroidism, I don't remember the explanation though.

In effect, I had an insulin assay and had a severe insulin resistance during the crisis. So I assume plant oils cause much more harm than sugar on that front.

I don't think so. I borrowed the BP monitor from my mother for a few days and everything seemed normal.

I am eating beef liver 1x weekly. Today I took a cap of CLO for the 1st time.

Mar 2012
TSH 4,6 mUI/L
T4 7,5 mcg/dL
T3 92 ng/dL

Aug 2013
TSH 4,4 mUI/L
T4 8 mcg/dL
T3 111 ng/dL


I take neither one. Once I took Norwegian Kelp for 3 days and felt bad. Testing showed very high TSH (~15), and since then it tended to be around 5 - 6. It would make sense that it further depleted me of vit A.

Yes, excess T4 makes my body nervous and excess T3 makes my mind nervous. It seems that replacement T3 goes all to the brain.

Yes, autoimmune. Indeed autoimmunity seems to get fired up by omega 6.
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
This is weird. I changed to T3 and T4 but now the values it spits out are completely in the wrong range... Maybe someone else can figure this out. And it can't compute the last two values. It seems like you really need free hormones for it to work properly.

p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px 'Lucida Grande'}

March 2012

GT: 0.17* pmol/s

GD: 15542.25* nmol/s

sGD: 3102.45*

TSHI: <Not computable>

sTSHI: <Not computable>

TTSI: <Not computable>

p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px 0.0px; font: 12.0px 'Lucida Grande'}
GT: 0.18* pmol/s

GD: 17580.06* nmol/s

sGD: 3510.01*
 

Iritu1021

Breaking Through The Fog
Messages
586
Insulin resistance could be due to increased T1AM level:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28754352

Yes, Ray Peat is very adamant about avoiding all omega fatty acids. I believe he attributed it to improper oxidation but I trust his more on his intuition than his science.

Yes, excess T4 makes my body nervous and excess T3 makes my mind nervous. It seems that replacement T3 goes all to the brain.[/QUOTE]

That could be due to different deiodinase settings between your CNS and the rest of the body. In CNS T3 is primarily synthesized by D2 while in other organs primarily through D1.

Low dose lithium orotate might help to convert T4 to T3 better, especially within CNS.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12176672

It sounds like kelp gave you Wolff-Chaikoff effect that you never fully recovered from. Must have been a pretty high dose of iodine. Iodine is a very controversial issue in Hashimoto's, it's something that I'm struggling with right now since I suspect I do have true iodine deficiency. But apparently iodine increases oxidative damage although I doubt your couple doses would do that since this was a study on chronic use.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16796889
Did you take it together with selenium? Selenium is supposed to have a protective effect against iodine toxicity in autoimmune thyroiditis.
 

Learner1

Senior Member
Messages
6,305
Location
Pacific Northwest
I've been following this discussion. I'm still not clear if SPINA is any use if one has high thyroglobulin antibodies and taking T3 and T4.

Can someone run my values through SPINA and tell.me what it means please? Mubgoal is to raise my TSH if possible, buy my doctor doesn't think I'd function if we dropped the T3. I was on 75 mcg each of T3 and T4 but switched 3 montgs ago to 137 mcg T4 and 50mcg T3.

Thank you

TSH <0.006 uIU/mL 0.450-4.500 T3,Free,Serum. 3.7 pg/mL. 2.0-4.4
T4,Free(Direct) 1.40 ng/dL 0.82-1.77