High ammonia - with gut dysbiosis

[renski]

Interesting I was just reading about MAO A R297R, how disrupting your circadian rhythm can cause issues, which makes sense to me, I have been going to bed late for the past month (insomnia) and taking sleeping tablets at 1-2am in the morning and feeling very anxious the following day. But the last few days I've been going to bed earlier with sleeping tablets and do feel calmer. I'm also very low in B2 according to the organic acids test, I might try B2 again, since this seems to be important for MAO A R297R.

 

[AkeBono]

@renski "From my doctor on LOLA": he might be right.

i have never took it together with ornithine but read on alternative forums good reviews for LOLA supp removing ammonia. but good point - its never black and white with supplements and treatments.
You could be right about your liver being clogged after antimicrobials an get constipated.

During my journey there were many "causes" for being constipated while having gut issues >> low thyroid, low bile flow/clogged liver, low serotonine due to distroyed gut lining, lack of good biota, ...you can have your own constellation.Some guys reported being constipated from histamine, some from oxalates in supplements?, from high level of clostridia (due to high ph because candida) which is lowering colon motility, etc.

I wish it could be simpler for you to identify the root cause.

 

[renski]

Been to see a new doctor near where I live in Sydney, she seems to understand more about how to treat the gut problems, I won't post everything just yet (will keep a journal for others), but the basic idea for now is to clear out the gut:
- Alkalize the body with magnesium carbonate/citric acid/ bicarbonate soda, potassium bicarbonate
- Add in grapefruit seed extract, cranberry extract (these are specific for the bad bacteria I have)
- Magnesium oxide/carbonate for colon flush and constipation from killing off bacteria
- Biokult Procyan (again she said this is specific to some of the bad bacteria I have), apparently acidophilus is very beneficial for this (regardless of the D-lactate stuff people talk about)
- Up vegetable intake and do juicing (vegetables/fruit for alkalizing - but don't overdo the fruit)

 

[dannybex]

Been to see a new doctor near where I live in Sydney, she seems to understand more about how to treat the gut problems, I won't post everything just yet (will keep a journal for others), but the basic idea for now is to clear out the gut:
- Alkalize the body with magnesium carbonate/citric acid/ bicarbonate soda, potassium bicarbonate
- Add in grape seed extract, cranberry extract (these are specific for the bad bacteria I have)
- Magnesium oxide/carbonate for colon flush and constipation from killing off bacteria
- Biokult Procyan (again she said this is specific to some of the bad bacteria I have), apparently acidophilus is very beneficial for this (regardless of the D-lactate stuff people talk about)
- Up vegetable intake and do juicing (vegetables/fruit for alkalizing - but don't overdo the fruit)

I'm not a doctor, but I would think alkalizing your gut might just make ammonia problems worse. Bacteria and fungi like candida produce ammonia for the sole purpose of increasing the ph of their environment so they can grow and survive and spread.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21586647

"We report here that C. albicans can actively alter the pH of its environment and induce its switch to the hyphal form. The change in pH is caused by the release of ammonia from the cells produced during the breakdown of amino acids."

Having said that, flushing in some manner may be helpful, but maybe in a way that is proven to lower ammonia, like butyrate supplements or butyrate-producing pre-or-probiotics? Just a guess as I'm trying to lower my ammonia levels as well. Also lowering protein intake.

Also, while this study may not be pertinent, it looks like magnesium might make a candida infection worse:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6432954

???

Edit: Sorry -- just saw that some of these things were already mentioned.

 

[renski]

I'm not a doctor, but I would think alkalizing your gut might just make ammonia problems worse. Bacteria and fungi like candida produce ammonia for the sole purpose of increasing the ph of their environment so they can grow and survive and spread.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21586647

"We report here that C. albicans can actively alter the pH of its environment and induce its switch to the hyphal form. The change in pH is caused by the release of ammonia from the cells produced during the breakdown of amino acids."

Having said that, flushing in some manner may be helpful, but maybe in a way that is proven to lower ammonia, like butyrate supplements or butyrate-producing pre-or-probiotics? Just a guess as I'm trying to lower my ammonia levels as well. Also lowering protein intake.

Also, while this study may not be pertinent, it looks like magnesium might make a candida infection worse:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6432954

???

Edit: Sorry -- just saw that some of these things were already mentioned.

I'm just going with what the doctor says, alkalizing is about reducing overall acidosis in the body that strep and other stuff is creating. I'm not focusing on ammonia anymore. The first stage is to clear out the bad bacteria and get the acidosis down. Based on some of the tests I likely don't have candida anymore, but again you can't keep focusing on little things like magnesium feeding candida, I need to flush out the colon and actually get some stuff cleared out.

 

[ebethc]

Butyrate cuts down on ammonia. You can take that everyday and it won't deplete you of minerals. Take charcoal like twice a week. I love charcoal. I agree, I feel better with it, too. Also, Yucca helps with ammonia and sulfur. Molybdenum may help to, but do this at a low dose.

Butyrate is used often but I never noticed a difference. Charcoal, I notice.

Hi @Misfit Toy - which type of butyrate do you recommend? sodium butyrate vs calcium/mag butyrate... thx

 

[AkeBono]

@renski
I was wondering if youve made any progress since last message.

 

[renski]

Hi @AkeBono, still struggling with most symptoms, anxiety/depression has probably improved a little bit. I had another CSA done, which I think shows I have more strep now. Waiting to see my doctor to see where to go from here, since we were treating it based on the CSA from September. I'm doing raw juices (not blending) a few times a day, which is making me feel really tired so I'm hoping that will improve. I'm basically only taking the alkalizer powder, juices, and grapefruit seed extract. The probiotics make me feel really ordinary and don't seem to tolerate any lactobacillus strains.

 

[AkeBono]

Good luck Renski!
Hoe about taking other probiotics besides lactobacillus?
For Strep is ive read Bile is somehow toxic to it,
vitamin C also and of course some microbials.
Some said also xylitol can help but Im wondering...

Also food for thought - too much alkalizing could increase number of Clostridia.
Strep and Clostridia use sugars in any form,
ferment starches and use sulphur as a substrate.
I also cant tolerate veggie juices.

 

[hvac14400]

what ammonia blood level in CFS considered high, anyone?

 

[MAF14]

Interesting I was just reading about MAO A R297R, how disrupting your circadian rhythm can cause issues, which makes sense to me, I have been going to bed late for the past month (insomnia) and taking sleeping tablets at 1-2am in the morning and feeling very anxious the following day. But the last few days I've been going to bed earlier with sleeping tablets and do feel calmer. I'm also very low in B2 according to the organic acids test, I might try B2 again, since this seems to be important for MAO A R297R.

For MAO you can try the FMN version of B2.. Very highly recommended by a poster named "ahmo" who claims it helped with her MAO/ammonia issues.

I just started taking Source Naturals FMN today so too soon to see if it's helping me.

 

[paul_k]

ok have uploaded pictures of my tongue + nails. The tongue looks bad..

methylation/detox are up as well..

I have tried to treat the gut with probiotics/anti microbials but never really got anywhere, the first time I took a probiotic I remember feeling much better but it didn't last. Colostrum helps initially when I take it. The antimicrobials just give me constipation and bring on the depression, and I've been doing them for 5-6 months without seeing any real improvement. The probiotics I was taking earlier in the year might not be effective.. just don't know. I took a small dose (2 billion) of Bifidobacterium bifidum yesterday, seemed to tip me into a depressive state but it took about 4 hours to happen. I've taken this probiotic before, 30mins before my meals and haven't had this kind of reaction. Yesterday I took it about 40mins after eating a plate of vegetables, so I wonder if that acted as a prebiotic.. whatever it was it's a strong reaction because I still feel it this morning - depression isn't as bad, just a real foggy/slow feeling in the head.

My stool this morning was a mess and I had real strong urge to use the toilet this morning, so I guess something was flushed out.. usually my stool isn't messy like that. The problem is I was using other probiotics in the days before. Really have to stay consistent to see whats going on, it's hard when I can't sleep and any number of things can tip me into a depressive state.

On the cortisol readings - the high reading I had in the morning I think was due to all the supplements I was taking, the antimicrobials would create more inflammation in my body which would mean more cortisol is produced?

Have you looked into your intolerance of the antibiotics being caused by aldehydes released from dying candida or other gut microbes? I get huge relief from taking NAD+ or niacin, plus molybdenum. Taking these nutrients help metabolise the aldehydes and may enable you to continue with your abx protocol. I also couldn't tolerate abx until I supported my adrenals with adaptogenic Herbs

 

[renski]

Have you looked into your intolerance of the antibiotics being caused by aldehydes released from dying candida or other gut microbes? I get huge relief from taking NAD+ or niacin, plus molybdenum. Taking these nutrients help metabolise the aldehydes and may enable you to continue with your abx protocol. I also couldn't tolerate abx until I supported my adrenals with adaptogenic Herbs

Will look into this.. I was able to tolerate erythromycin but could barely take ampicillin. Difuclan makes me feel a bit hyper/wired.. similar to ampicillin .. but then so do some digestive enzymes.. some natural antimicrobials don't do this.. I have no idea whats wrong with my body and I just keep going backwards without any improvement.

My adrenals are in overdrive producing excessive amounts of cortisol all day (tests showed this).. which I guess is due to inflammation from the gut, or some other toxicity? oxalates, plastic, heavy metals..

 

[Thinktank]

Is there any scientific evidence to support those claims? Strep making your body "acidic" and that you need to "alkalize"?

 

[cfs6691]

Hi,

I'm really suffering with insomnia, depression, anxiety and chronic fatigue at the moment, all of my symptoms are psychological/fatigue related. I'm seeing a few doctors at the moment but so far no one has really been able to help. Often when I try to take basic supplements like B12, I feel overstimulated and it makes my anxiety/insomnia much worse. I've used P5P on and off for a while, sometimes it helps me to relax other times I feel like it's adding to the over stimulation.

Some of the problems I have:
- High ammonia
- High oxalates
- Homocysteine is 6.1
- Low glutathione
- Neurotransmitters are high glutamate, low gaba/serotonin
- SIBO (streptococcus overgrowth, citrobacter), candida
- Thyroid - high reverse T3
- High cortisol
- B2, B6, Biotin deficiencies
- Mineral deficiencies (at least magnesium/selenium)

For CBS - I have CBS A360A+/+, but unaffected by - CBS C699T

Tests that I've had done can be viewed here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B20YfaNvgCdnLVhyZ1k5dndWSDg

I've tried to treat the SIBO/candida with probiotics and antifungals for 6 months but seen no improvement and I'm now at the point where side effects from antifungals are intolerable and have stopped using them. I've started to look into the ammonia issue, and have noticed when I used activated charcoal I felt much better, but am afraid to use it frequently. I've tried Ornithine, it gives me some relief for about an hour but then I get anxiety/anxious. I don't have constipation/bloating or anything like that, even when using the charcoal it passes through but takes 24 hours. I'm taking Pure encapsulations gi fortify, Lactobacillus GG, saccharomyces boulardii and a small dose of Bifidobacterium lactis and Lactobacillus rhamnosus. I suspect my body is toxic, I have cold hands/feet, my body generally feels cold all the time, my tongue is very white, my nails are very white. I'm kind of lost as to whether I should be focusing on reducing ammonia with things like Yucca, or somehow try to treat the gut (without antifungals) instead? I've ordered a methylation profile panel but don't have the results yet. My diet is steamed vegetables, salmon, salads, some chicken. It was previously high in beef/lamb etc, but have stopped that recently (didn't notice much improvement though). I don't think I have parasites but again stool test was only x1, so not 100% certain. I sometimes see relief with antifungals, but it's usually short term.

Appreciate any help..

I google searched high ammonia levels, liver disease comes up every time and in one site there's also kidney failure,Reye syndrome and rare genetic disorder of the urea cycle.There's also talk of ammonia affecting or being toxic to the brain.If your doctors didn't refer you to specialists for further investigation if you have the option you should look for other doctors.

 

[Cubbies2016]

How does one go about getting tested for ammonia? I see it's not a standard test. Can I ask my Rheumatologist who is treating my CFS or do I need to see a liver Dr. How do we justify taking the test? Just by asking ?

 

[InsomniacNextDoor]

Hello @renski, I saw this post on high ammonia and some of your description of your condition. It very closely resembles my symptoms too, especially things that you mention: insomnia, depression, chronic fatigue; supplements like B12, Biotin, I feel overstimulated and it makes my anxiety/insomnia much worse; High ammonia, High oxalates, neurotransmitters are high glutamate, low gaba/serotonin; SIBO (streptococcus overgrowth, citrobacter), candida, adrenal fatigue and so on, CBS C699T, MTHFR, COMT, etc. I'm wondering, how are you progressing?

 

[renski]

Hello @renski, I saw this post on high ammonia and some of your description of your condition. It very closely resembles my symptoms too, especially things that you mention: insomnia, depression, chronic fatigue; supplements like B12, Biotin, I feel overstimulated and it makes my anxiety/insomnia much worse; High ammonia, High oxalates, neurotransmitters are high glutamate, low gaba/serotonin; SIBO (streptococcus overgrowth, citrobacter), candida, adrenal fatigue and so on, CBS C699T, MTHFR, COMT, etc. I'm wondering, how are you progressing?

@InsomniacNextDoor, I'm getting better but still long way off. I focused on B vitamins and minerals but also a good multi vitamin. I haven't done anything on ammonia for a while, but am possibly going to start some L-Citrulline soon since it came back low on my latest Nutreval. What testing have you done?

 

[InsomniacNextDoor]

@renski , thanks for the note. Do you have a reason to suspect heavy metals? I've been living with seven amalgams for seven years and I feel so dumb for ignoring this potential hazard for so long. I just removed them and will start chelation per Andre Cutler protocol. I can not take B complexes as there's usually something that will cause me trouble. B12 and Biotin, especially make me very stimulated. I feel better but I can't sleep so for now I only take B6 together with Mag and some other supplements. I'm also doing a fungal/SIBO cleanse with a Chinese medicine guy at the moment. L-Citrulline is probably going to be an interesting experiment but I'm going to try OKG as that one seems the like the best choice according to some articles I read. I've done genetic test, organic acids and some other stuff at the clinic but not Nutreval. Someone else here suggested its a good start but since I now mostly suspect mercury messing with my immune systems, thryroid, gut and so on I'll go on to chelate and see how things go. How's your sleep these days? Do you get hot or cold at night?