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Does anyone on here sleep normally?

PennyIA

Senior Member
Messages
728
Location
Iowa
Actually, if you have "textbook sleep" you are almost certainly having REM sleep and dreaming. However, people who sleep deeply like you describe often have difficulty remembering their dreams. In fact, people in our culture in general have trouble remembering dreams.

OK, I could have probably been more clear. I used to have exceptionally frequent and lucid dreams that I could remember quite well, almost every night. For decades.

Once I got ill, I reached a scenario where I cannot recall dreams most nights, in fact, I may remember my dreams about 2 times out of a year. It was a major change when I went through my biggest crash and one that hasn't returned even when I'm in remission. While they did register me in REM state, I still wonder if there was something that they aren't monitoring that would impact the dream state.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
I am going to do a home sleep study this week-end. I'll be very curious to see the results.
I just got the device from my cardiologist--pretty nifty? The image doesn't show the small patch you stick below the clavical notch. It is attached to the wrist device by a wire that you run through your shirt.
watchpat1.jpg
 

Basilico

Florida
Messages
948
I would say that as a general rule, I sleep normally.

I noticed that there is often very little to no connection between how I feel and how much/how well I slept the night before. Plenty of nights I get terrible sleep, am walking up constantly, etc... but surprisingly felt relatively decent the next day. Other nights after getting a solid 8-12 hours of deep sleep, I wake up feeling sleep deprived and more exhausted.

No matter how good my sleep is (and overall it's not bad), I never ever wake up refreshed. For most of my life (even as a teenager) I woke up at 5am/6am with no problem - I was a super morning person who would leap out of bed and be wide awake immediately. Now, it's painful to get out of bed before 9/10am, and even then it takes a while to slowly transition into the world of the living.

I've followed every sleep hygiene rule to the letter and what I've discovered is that it doesn't make a difference for me; either I'm going to fall asleep or I'm not. Some nights, I'm struggling to stay up until 9pm, I fall asleep before my head hits the pillow, and am out like a light for 10-12 hours. Other nights I either struggle to fall asleep, or sleep restlessly waking up multiple times to use the bathroom and turn over. And everything in between.

I've learned that my sleep is often much better if I break several sleep hygiene rules. Just like @PennyIA , I also have a tv series that I've watched hundreds of times (and can quote almost every line) that I watch on my computer in bed. If I put it on, most nights I'm asleep within 5 minutes. For me, blue light of tv/computer screens doesn't seem to ever cause a problem, and often makes it easier for me to sleep.
 

TalismanJ

[banned as spam]
Messages
4
I sleep very well. A few tips or suggestions... Make sure you are properly hydrated with water.
Hydration from water is a crucial key to reviving and maintaining your adrenal glands.

Drink in small sips of water as it's a scientific fact all of our bodies can only absorb a small amount of water at one time as the rest is immediately sent to the kidneys for removal from the body without the water being used to transport vitamins, minerals, etc. throughout the body. So those who guzzle their water most of it goes straight to the kidneys for urination and not used by the body to transport vitamins, minerals, etc. throughout the body.

During the day take a 5 oz. Dixie cup and fill it full of water. Drink it with small sips. Repeat 2 more times. Repeat these steps throughout the day.

The 8 to 10 glasses (8 oz.) of water a day is a fairly accurate rule to live by.

REMEMBER you can drink too much water and it can be harmful to you when you do including death. Be smart and use caution.


I use tap water filtered by Du Pont carbon filter and whole house filter. You can buy a filter that adapts to your kitchen sink faucet from Lowe's, Menards, Home Depot, etc.).

Sometimes when you wake up in the middle of the night it is because you are dehydrated - get up and drink 3 Dixie cups of water as noted above and you will actually fall back to sleep provided it was dehydration.
 

TalismanJ

[banned as spam]
Messages
4
Sleep on your back with your legs not crossed but properly extended. Have your head resting on 2 or 3 pillows (I highly recommend My Pillow brand) so your neck is slightly arched. If you have to sleep on your side please make sure you sleep on your left side not your right side - left side helps your digestion and bowel movements whereas the right side interferes with your digestion and bowel movements. With that said, sleeping on either side places stress on the adrenal glands.
 

TalismanJ

[banned as spam]
Messages
4
You should consider that salicylate sensitivity may be causing your sleep disturbance issues.

Excerpt from ATP Science.com

http://atpscience.com/salicylate-foods-sensitivity-intolerances-and-food-list/
Salicylates

Salicylates are organics chemicals found naturally in many herbs, vegetables, fruits, and nuts. Salicylates act like preservatives, they prevent rot and disease and protect against pests. They are stored in the most vulnerable plant parts; the leaves, bark, roots, skin and seeds.
Salicylate load and intolerance
We regularly consume salicylates and our body has to detoxify and clear away these chemicals before they accumulate. We have a threshold for symptoms. Once our salicylate load gets to around that level we start getting allergic style inflammatory reactions.

Once our load drops through avoidance and enhanced clearance the symptoms will often disappear. The symptoms will re appear if your salicylate levels creep up again. If your salicylate load is hovering around that symptom threshold than you can react every time you touch salicylate foods.

Signs and symptoms of salicylate sensitivity

  • Headaches, migraines
  • Itchy skin rashes such as hives (urticaria), eczema. Itchiness is often worse after hot shower and/or exercise
  • Irritable bowel symptoms – reflux in babies or adults, nausea, vomiting, stomach bloating and discomfort, wind, diarrhea and/or constipation
  • Bedwetting, cystitis and increased frequency of urination
  • Asthma, sinus congestion, itching, sneezing and excessive phlegm
  • Behaviour problems such as irritability, restlessness, inattention and learning difficulties
  • Sleep disturbance and sleep apnea
  • Anxiety, depression, panic attacks
  • Tinnitus
  • Joint pain, inflammation and arthritis
  • Swelling and fluid retention
  • Mouth Ulcers or raw hot red rash around mouth
  • Persistent cough
  • Sore, itchy, puffy, watery or burning eyes
  • Muscle cramp, tremor, twitch
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
If you have to sleep on your side please make sure you sleep on your left side not your right side - left side helps your digestion and bowel movements whereas the right side interferes with your digestion and bowel movements.
It depends on your whole health picture. For some of us, sleeping on the left side brings cardiac symptoms.
 

SB_1108

Senior Member
Messages
315
I have almost complete sleep reversal now. I'm going to bed at dawn and sleeping in intermittent blocks throughout the daytime. On the occasions when I need to work, I have to reverse this, and try to get some sleep before waking at 5 AM for work. If it weren't for the need for work and the fact that most of the world operates during daylight hours, my situation might be OK.

Anyone else with severe sleep reversal? I thought it was pretty common: it is even cited as a common symptom of ME/CFS somewhere (can't recall exactly where at the moment).

I fall into the category of severe sleep reversal! I can't fall asleep until 4 or 5am and even then I only sleep 4-6 hours. I've tried sleep hygiene protocols, every tea known to promote sleep, melatonin, valerian root, Cannabidiol oil, gaba/l-theanine cream, adrenal supplements, prescription medications like xanax and trazadone but nothing helps.

The only thing that gives me relief is Ativan. I try not to take it often because I know it can be additive but the further my health declines the more often I need to take it. I take it every other night now. If I don't sleep 8 hours I feel like I'm having a heart attack - so I don't know what's worse, developing a dependency on a drug to sleep or potentially having a heart attack? I'm seeing a new sleep specialist next week so I'm hoping to try some other new options.

I go to bed cold and wake up sweating - sometimes I have to change clothes because of the night sweats. Even when my ME symptoms were almost in remission, my circadian rhythm was still off. And I always wake up groggy and never feel well rested. I wake too easily. I haven't been able to sleep in the same bed as my spouse for years and that is so embarrassing to me.
 

valentinelynx

Senior Member
Messages
1,310
Location
Tucson
If I don't sleep 8 hours I feel like I'm having a heart attack

Interesting. I find that I actually feel better with too little sleep, at least in the short term. It catches up to me after awhile, but I generally sleep in "cat naps": go to bed at 6-10 AM, sleep a couple of hours, wake for a bit, sleep another hour or two... this goes on until about 7 PM, when I get up and stay up until the next morning. However, I typically fall asleep in the bath. I take a hot bath every night to soothe my aching muscles (and to get clean—I haven't been able to tolerate morning showers for about 20 years).

If I sleep the amount my body always used to want to feel rested (9 plus hours), I will feel terrible: hurt all over, hands so stiff and painful I can't bend my fingers and extremely groggy. But a 2 hour nap will restore me a bit, without the "side effects" of extra pain & stiffness and profound grogginess.

I have tried many sleep medications. The only one I will currently use on occasion is Sonata (zaleplon) as it is very short acting (3-4 hours). Ambien, which I used to use, gives me a hangover (sleepy next morning). I would like to try "Xyrem" (sodium oxybate, better known as "GHB"), as it produces a natural sleep unlike all other sleep medications. However, the restrictions on prescriptions of Xyrem are absurd, based on hysteria about GHB being a "date rape drug." (Gee, what is alcohol but the original "date rape drug"...). I used to use GHB and it's precursor drug gamma hydroxy butyrolactone, before it was made a controlled substance, and it was very helpful. But that was before I had severe pain and before my sleep was as totally screwed up as it is now.

I used to have night sweats, but not much anymore, unless as a result of the hot flashes I started to get a couple of years ago (probably due to menopause, but possibly related to borrelia or bartonella infection). Fortunately, the hot flashes have decreased greatly from their peak, when I'd have them every hour, or whenever I woke up, or whenever anything made me the slightest bit activated/nervous. Miserable things, hot flashes, especially in the summer in Tucson!
 

perchance dreamer

Senior Member
Messages
1,691
I think this is very interesting, and I plan to give it a try. To anyone who has done this (@Manganus, @PatJ , others ) I have a question, though. If you raise only two legs of the bed, won't the bed be really unstable because those two raised legs will be resting on the edge (since they're at an angle)? Do you try to put something angled under the raised legs to make them more stable?

@Basilico, I use a wedge just for me because my husband doesn't want to sleep inclined, so we don't elevate the entire bed. The wedge has helped me sleep, maybe because sleeping with the head elevated can improve nasal breathing, which in turn, helps sleep.

I use this one from Relax the Back for side sleeping:

https://www.relaxtheback.com/contou...j6iUAmLG1PEmOi3QPhIHZ715eU4asjFmCghoC8WTw_wcB
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
I have almost complete sleep reversal now. I'm going to bed at dawn and sleeping in intermittent blocks throughout the daytime. On the occasions when I need to work, I have to reverse this, and try to get some sleep before waking at 5 AM for work. If it weren't for the need for work and the fact that most of the world operates during daylight hours, my situation might be OK.

Anyone else with severe sleep reversal? I thought it was pretty common: it is even cited as a common symptom of ME/CFS somewhere (can't recall exactly where at the moment).

I have found that sleep reversal correlates strongly with the severity of my condition. When I'm in worse shape something seems to grab my clock and pull it around until it's roughly inverted. There has to be a biological process here; it's respectable, doesn't respond to medium-strength efforts at sleep hygiene & when this happens I can be exhausted all day and get an improvement of energy right around 11 at night, which is very frustrating as the few things that need to be done often have to be done during the day. When I'm in better condition sleep hygiene seems to help.

I don't know what the causes but over the years I've found it's definitely not A simple case of being unemployed and one natural clock running a little later each day (it's known that are natural o'clock is a little more than 24 hours long if you put people in isolation they'll settle out in about 26 hours).

Another good area for research. there should be some sort of forum where interested patients and mecfs researchers (all five of them :-| ) could assemble targets and methods for meaningful research.
 

HowToEscape?

Senior Member
Messages
626
I've just downloaded the sleep zone stuff for my Fitbit blaze. This now tracks how long you are in rem sleep vs light non rem and deep non rem. Looks quite interesting so far. I'm wondering whether this is an improvement in sleep quality tracking? I presume it uses movement and heart rate to track the zones? Too early to tell yet but I'm wondering whether this can give me some better insight into quality if sleep.

I read on your earlier post on another thread that you were struggling with sleep tracking with the Fitbit. Is yours with heart rate monitoring as well? If not, just wondered whether that might help track sleep better? I certainly noticed a difference in the accuracy when I changed from a fitbit one.

I wouldn't take anything from the fitness tractors gospel. They're fun toys that lately has been developed to be reasonably accurate heart rate monitor. They're not a serious training tool nor are they a medical grade device.

pardon the-typos, posting from phone
 
Messages
1,478
I wouldn't take anything from the fitness tractors gospel. They're fun toys that lately has been developed to be reasonably accurate heart rate monitor. They're not a serious training tool nor are they a medical grade device.

pardon the-typos, posting from phone
I agree with this but I don't think they should be dismissed as "fun toys". Accuracy is not an issue when you are constantly monitoring yourself and responding to individual feedback. Its not like there is a load of scientific standards for people with ME to refer to in any case. Its also not like we are elite sportsmen\women looking to develop our competitive edge....I just use it to help me pace walking and doing everyday tasks. For this they are fine and probably one of the best affordable tools you have in the absence of anything else.
 

sharks

Senior Member
Messages
141
I don't sleep normally at all. I have to take melatonin 2 hours before I want to sleep. I then wake up on my own at 5 am feeling fine. I then feel sleepy around 8:30am and sleep for a few more hours. I never feel refreshed. Once I started taking famvir, I slowly am able to get more restful sleep which is helping me heal (hopefully).
 
Messages
12
I have started sleeping better.

For several years I would fall asleep early 7:30 or 8:00 and wake up multiple times at night to pee.

I woke easily and fully at anytime in the night or morning and still do if the dog wants to go out or there is a noise or something. And I could usually fall back to sleep.

But between 2am and 5am I would wake and not be able to go back to sleep. So I would read a book or read on the computer. Send email etc., this became my normal for many years. I started napping when possible.

Once in a great while I would sleep all night. Oddly when I was on antibiotics I wouldn't wake at night.

I stopped using an alarm about 20+ years ago. I wake up early or when I need to wake up.

Since starting methylation supplements my sleep patterns have changed. I wake up once a night to pee but not every night. I no longer HAVE to go pee every little while day or night. I can hold on if I need to - impossible before. I once got out of my car in a traffic jam to run in the woods to pee. Embarrassing but true.

So I have longer uninterrupted sleep. I don't classify myself as having insomnia any longer. I dream again. I remember the dreams. I don't wake up and read.
I don't recycle the events of the day over and over. I no longer take naps. I'm not completely exhausted at 6pm
 

Dechi

Senior Member
Messages
1,454
I have started sleeping better.

For several years I would fall asleep early 7:30 or 8:00 and wake up multiple times at night to pee.

I woke easily and fully at anytime in the night or morning and still do if the dog wants to go out or there is a noise or something. And I could usually fall back to sleep.

But between 2am and 5am I would wake and not be able to go back to sleep. So I would read a book or read on the computer. Send email etc., this became my normal for many years. I started napping when possible.

Once in a great while I would sleep all night. Oddly when I was on antibiotics I wouldn't wake at night.

I stopped using an alarm about 20+ years ago. I wake up early or when I need to wake up.

Since starting methylation supplements my sleep patterns have changed. I wake up once a night to pee but not every night. I no longer HAVE to go pee every little while day or night. I can hold on if I need to - impossible before. I once got out of my car in a traffic jam to run in the woods to pee. Embarrassing but true.

So I have longer uninterrupted sleep. I don't classify myself as having insomnia any longer. I dream again. I remember the dreams. I don't wake up and read.
I don't recycle the events of the day over and over. I no longer take naps. I'm not completely exhausted at 6pm

Wow, the first part of your story is exaxtly how I am most of the time !
 

Plum

Senior Member
Messages
512
Location
UK
I have started sleeping better.

For several years I would fall asleep early 7:30 or 8:00 and wake up multiple times at night to pee.

I woke easily and fully at anytime in the night or morning and still do if the dog wants to go out or there is a noise or something. And I could usually fall back to sleep.

But between 2am and 5am I would wake and not be able to go back to sleep. So I would read a book or read on the computer. Send email etc., this became my normal for many years. I started napping when possible.

Once in a great while I would sleep all night. Oddly when I was on antibiotics I wouldn't wake at night.

I stopped using an alarm about 20+ years ago. I wake up early or when I need to wake up.

Since starting methylation supplements my sleep patterns have changed. I wake up once a night to pee but not every night. I no longer HAVE to go pee every little while day or night. I can hold on if I need to - impossible before. I once got out of my car in a traffic jam to run in the woods to pee. Embarrassing but true.

So I have longer uninterrupted sleep. I don't classify myself as having insomnia any longer. I dream again. I remember the dreams. I don't wake up and read.
I don't recycle the events of the day over and over. I no longer take naps. I'm not completely exhausted at 6pm

Could you share what methylation supplements you're on and how long it took to notice improvement? Pretty awesome!
 
Messages
12
When I first started with supplements it was a huge response. I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll put it on my intro thread.