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Crawley: How to deal with anti-science BRS2017

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9
Screenshots of your tweets have been saved in this thread. While I can't be completely sure that your "Inspiring!" at the end of a tweet recounting Dr Esther Crawley accusing ME patients of abuse wasn't her opinion of herself as well, in that case it is very clearly your opinion.

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I don't expect a response (your post has the feel of the typical forum hit-and-run), but I haven't seen any indication that you were abused. Unless, of course, Esther Crawley's presentation has understandably caused you to redefine abuse to include things like polite objections and scientific discourse.


So you'll heartily endorse claims of abusive patients as "Inspiring!" on social media, but might or might not be arsed to read an article or two that explains our actual objections to blatantly bad science. Some other good reading material might be the FOIA tribunal decision where the judges completely dismissed the claims of Crawley's supposedly-abused colleagues as having no basis.

I don't expect you to know anything about the problems with Esther Crawley's work, or the similarly poor work of some of her colleagues which she also defends, or how they demonize patients to distract from the complaints about the poor quality of their research. You are not involved in ME, after all. But as someone intelligent enough to be a doctor, I do expect you to know that you don't know enough about the situation to endorse a blatantly one-sided view of it.

Hi Valentijn

I am a nephrologist and I rarely come across individuals with ME and even for them, I am not a primary physician in-charge of managing ME. And as I said, I have never heard of Dr Crawley before the morning of the talk. When I tweeted it as inspiring, I did not mean the part she said about her being abused. I only meant the things that she said she is doing for individuals with ME. As Kati says (thank you by the way for an impartial view), any person who do not know much about ME, would have felt the same after the talk.

I would like to make it clear again that me tweeting them is not endorsement of her ideas and views. It was just a reproduction of the things as they were happening. Live tweeting is common in almost all the medical conferences now-a-days and that's exactly what I was doing. If it came across as I was endorsing her views of abuse and considering it inspirational, I apologise for that and that wasn't certainly my intention.

Thanks.
 
Messages
9
why apologise to this chap - he blocked me for simply retweeting his tweets and now he has the audacity to claim that those be blocked were abusing him or Crawley through his tweets

he needs to now apolgise to me for this statement - pass that on to him from an ME researcher

he quickly took the tweets down most likely because he saw patients and others were spreading truth ie what Crawley was writing

this chap has swallowed the Crawley teaching lesson hook line and sinker - saying he was abused, please him to give examples of the abuse he sufferered yesterday ?

Hi Keith

I wasn't looking for apology when I posted here. I only wanted to clear things up to say that I am not in anyway connected to EC and I was just a messenger. I posted here not to defend her presentation but just to defend my tweeting. I have nothing personal against you. If I had known about this forum, then may be I would have come here directly rather than blocking you. In keeping with this, I have unblocked you now and apologies if you felt it was unfair. Thanks.
 
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9
Hi @Nephrofan and thank you for coming on here and explaining the situation.
I am really sorry that you feel abused through the tweets etc you have received regarding the postings of Esther Crawley's lecture and I can see how you unwittingly and innocently have been caught up in the middle of what is a very complex and emotive situation.

It would be very helpful to us as a community if you could provide details of the abuse directed at yourself and at Esther Crawley through you. The reason I ask for this is that Esther Crawley and a number of her colleagues have over many years painted a picture of ME patients as being abusive, militant and dangerous even. A whole community of millions of patients has been branded as this as a result.

Last year when a Court ordered the PACE trial data to be released, the judge found that these claims of abusive patients were completely unfounded and no examples could be supplied to the court of abuse other than 1 instance of one researcher being heckled at a lecture.

If we as a community knew what the abuse was we would be able to denounce it, call it out and say not in our name. But we are never told, we are never given the opportunity to denounce it and take a stand against it. We as a community of patients are just labelled as abusive, vexatious, militant for what may be the actions of a couple of people, who may or may not be connected to the ME patient community and for which no examples could be produced as evidence before a court of law. So it would be very helpful to know what the abuse was and who by.

Feelings run extremely strongly within the ME community regarding the philosophical model and belief system which Esther Crawley subscribes to and not without good reason. I really hope that you will do your own reading and research to understand why. It is clear from the lecture you were given a very one sided story as a story not supported by scientist, researchers and experts in the field of ME nor the patient community. I hope you are sufficiently intrigued to question what you were shown in that lecture. Why there might be such a strong reaction and what is the other side of the story because I am sure with a scientific mind you will be deeply troubled by what you find and what was presented to you.

Many people outside the ME community do not realise that patients have died and do die as a result of this belief system that Esther Crawley and her colleagues present and adhere to, it has had a huge influence on the medical profession, resulting in medical neglect and in some cases abuse of ME patients. All of us are continually on the receiving end of prejudice and often hostility as a result of flawed beliefs and flawed research undertaken not by scientists but generally psychiatrist, psychologist pushing a theory that the belief in. If you would like me to provide examples of this please ask. The impact on our lives is huge, the suffering beyond belief.

Many of our community are very seriously ill, bed ridden for years, unable to speak, eat or function, the views that Esther Crawley give of ME are just insulting and do not reflect the reality of this disease.

Many of our community feel very strongly regarding the work of Esther Crawley as it is experimenting with techniques on Children and Young people, techniques or practices which have left many 1000's of ME patients bedridden inflicting in some cases severe harm and disability. It is right that we as a community try to protect others from such harms but especially, especially our children and young people.

Esther Crawley has herself been responsible for causing families severe distress when children are severely ill and do not improve with her methods and she has effectively labelled them as mentally ill and in addition seen parents, particular mothers as causing or perpetuating the child's illness. There is nothing scientific about any of this, just a belief.

It is not a handful of militants who oppose her research but 1000's of patients, carers, scientists and researchers. For example, the slides from the lecture she uses the example of MEGA, the patient community were not against MEGA because they were against science they were largely against MEGA because of Esther Crawley's involvement and her largely anti scientific stance.

The community have absolutely no confidence in her given her unscientific stance, the community had absolutely valid and entirely justified concerns. The petition against MEGA got far more signatures than those in support of MEGA, this is not a minority of militant patients but the majority of a very ill patient community giving a resounding message of no confidence in a researcher who has caused and contiues to cause harm to our community and peddle some very unscientifc beleifs regarding this disease to the wider medical community.

It is very telling that Esther Crawley and colleagues are usually missing from the scientic conferences on ME/ CFS, they continue to ignore any biological and scientific advancements in the ME field, do not work collaboratively with scientifc researcher in the field and continue to peddle a belief system which is quite proposterous when you look at all the biological evidence from many eminent scientist from around the world.

What we as a community are fighting for is science and for a stop to be put to their anti science aproach and methods which is harming patients.

Esther crawley and Colleagues are making themselves the laughing stock of the scientifc commuity from which they have become increasingly isolated as with scientifc advancements their approaches appear more akin to magical thinking or religious beliefs.

Please, take a good look around this forum, Do we look anti science? please check out the threads on all the various scientific research papers. You will find many of our community who themselves are scientists, or are very capable of scientifc thinking, our objection is indeed to unscientific thinking.

Please reflect on the slide that Esther Crawley presented giving the following as factors involved in developing ME.
Education - read through the threads, do we as a community seem uneducated?
Criminal- do we seem criminal?
Drug Addiction- do we give the impression of being a community of drug or alcohol adicts
Abuse
and then other social conditions such as housing.

The image that she is seeking to portray that this disease is a result of social deprivation and mental health factors is a myth and gives completely the wrong impression as to the nature and cause of this disease. This is misleading and harmful. In fact she is likely researching fatigue caused by depression, not ME. Please reflect on what you see here, do we look like we fit into the patient group she is seeking to portray?

Conscientious, loving parents, suddenly find themselves suspected of and at times accused of harming their child, keeping or making them ill, by people such as Esther Crawley who refuse to accept the scientific evidence regarding ME because they want their beliefs to be true so badly that they ignore anything that may contradict their beliefs and practices. It is devastating.

I hope that you will take the time and trouble to research and understand more and that you will form an opinion and not remain neutral, an informed opinion based on science but also because you have a conscience and do not like to see people mistreated and harmed in the way this community has been.

Thank you and once again I am sorry if you have felt abused by anyone.

Hi Molly

Thank you for a detailed reply to my post. I do not disagree with what you have posted regarding the troubles facing individuals with ME and their families. However, personally this is the first ever presentation I have attended regarding ME and that too, I never knew what it was going to be until the talk started as I didn't know what EC does. There was no mention of which group of people were against her and certainly, I was not left with an impression at the end of the talk that patient groups were themselves not happy with her work. So, as you can see, I was completely in the dark and all I was personally focusing was the work she said she was doing.

As I have posted in one of the other replies, my intention was to tweet things as they happened and was in no way intended to endorse the views of EC or agree with it. Apologies to everyone here if it has come across as such and hope everyone in this forum accept my apology.

Many thanks.
 
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9
Bit late for that, isn't it?

The ISN gave Crawley an uncritical propaganda platform to, yet again, blatantly slander patients and her critics, indulge in some serious anti-science behaviour herself, and avoid accountability for her own culpability in this decades long tragedy.

That is not in any way the fault of patients or her critics. The ISN must take full responsibility for that serious error of judgment, however unwitting.

I strongly suggest to you that the ISN does some robust – if belated – due diligence to find out the full story, and then put some hard questions to Crawley, and those who thought it a good idea to invite her along to your conference.

A formal public apology to patients and critics is something the ISN might also want to consider.

:meh:

Hi Sean

ISN wasn't involved in this in anyway. I was tweeting the session from my own account as I was attending the conference as a private individual and not as ISN member. And BRS conference has got no links to ISN.

Hence, I have posted my apology to some of the previous messages (awaiting moderator approval) and apologise here once again unreservedly. But to put it in context, I am unaware of work of EC and existing evidence discrediting her work. And also, there was no mention in the presentation that the patient groups were the ones being pointed as anti-science. And I had no idea who she was talking about and there was certainly no mention of any single person or group.

However, now I am aware of these issues, I apologise for tweeting those slides. I don't intend to propagate or provide any platform for people wanting to discredit individuals with ME. Hence, I have taken down those slides and hope this community can accept my apology. Thanks.
 
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Messages
9
And on the flip side........they are not informed about the research funding being supported by the same 'vexacious' people something EC conveniently sweeps away.

@Nephrofan now you can access this site please take the time to look at the real scientific research projects that members are actively supporting/helping to fund across the world. Research that Crawley and her associates continually dismiss, research that could have been happening a lot sooner.
(See Ron Davis The Open Medicine foundation, Invest in ME[IimE], Naviaux, Fluge and Mella)

Hi

I have gathered many links and references here regarding ME research that have been pointed out to me. I do intend to take time to look into these links and form my own opinion regarding this. Many thanks.
 
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9
I suspect EC touts herself around all the medical conferences offering her talk on anti-science abuse etc. She just loves playing the hero, and garnering plaudits and admiration from her uninformed and unsuspecting colleagues.

@Nephrofan , if you are still reading this thread, you will have seen that we are not criticising the fact that you tweeted the slides from Prof. Crawley's talk. You had no way of knowing at the time that she was not what she paints herself to be.

However, now that you have been alerted to the situation, I hope you will alert the organisation that runs the Conference to the fact that they have had their invitation to speak abused by someone who is anti- science, the very opposite of the message she pretends to convey.

You can see clues to this, as others here have already pointed out, in the fact that she was promoting secrecy and rejection of information requests and data sharing. This is an anti-science message.

If you do not feel able yourself to enter further into this debate, I hope you will be able at least to inform us of the best way of alerting your fellow BRS members to the problem with Prof. Crawley's talk, perhaps by inviting someone like @Jonathan Edwards or @Keith Geraghty to write a piece for your organisation's publication or website.

Hi

I am not a member of BRS. I don't think there is any formal membership as far as I know. I do not know any specific persons to contact in BRS regarding this other than whatever is there on their website. I am not related to BRS organisation in anyway. Sorry.
 
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38
The sad tweets, with slides labelling CFSers stalkers and anti-science has now been removed, assumingly due to too many vexatious requests. I assume we will learn more in her biography "Every breath i took, they were stalking me - How i survived the housebound zombies"

I warned the poster about the questionable statements she was making and the comments from Kennedy re last year's tribunal judgement, pointing out (yet again) that I had attended it, thus hearing evidence for myself.
 

Sean

Senior Member
Messages
7,378
No petitions. This needs to be looked into legally.
I agree. I am increasingly thinking that Crawley made a very serious mistake, that could play well for us.

First, by any rational assessment and notion of fairness she clearly went way over the line, and second, I wouldn't bank on the ISN/BRS being overly keen to defend her when they come under fire from lawyers representing Tuller and a hundred or so co-signatories.

Defamation law in the UK is notoriously favourable to the plaintiff. I believe that Wessely has used it a number of times to silence legit critics and have critical media articles pulled. But it cuts both ways.
 

Molly98

Senior Member
Messages
576
Hi Molly

Thank you for a detailed reply to my post. I do not disagree with what you have posted regarding the troubles facing individuals with ME and their families. However, personally this is the first ever presentation I have attended regarding ME and that too, I never knew what it was going to be until the talk started as I didn't know what EC does. There was no mention of which group of people were against her and certainly, I was not left with an impression at the end of the talk that patient groups were themselves not happy with her work. So, as you can see, I was completely in the dark and all I was personally focusing was the work she said she was doing.

As I have posted in one of the other replies, my intention was to tweet things as they happened and was in no way intended to endorse the views of EC or agree with it. Apologies to everyone here if it has come across as such and hope everyone in this forum accept my apology.

Many thanks.
I really appreciate you taking the trouble to respond @Nephrofan , thank you.
And thank you for taking the trouble come back on here again and explain, you didn't have to so all credit to you that you have taken the trouble to do so.
I do understand you were thrown blind into this situation, it must have been quite a shock to the system :)
I am sure your apology will be welcomed by anyone who may have been offended, It's not often someone has had the integrity and good will to do so. Thank you.
And best wishes
Oh.. and you are very welcome to stick around and find out more of about the intriguing underground world of ME. If I had the energy I would include a short list of links to recent articles and videos but I am afraid I am done for the day. Perhaps someone else would be kind enough to do so if you are interested. Jen Brea's TED talk and the film Voices from The shadows may be a good place to start.
 

RogerBlack

Senior Member
Messages
902
I agree. I am increasingly thinking that Crawley made a very serious mistake, that could play well for us.

First, by any rational assessment and notion of fairness she clearly went way over the line, and second, I wouldn't bank on the ISN/BRS being overly keen to defend her when they come under fire from lawyers representing Tuller and a hundred or so co-signatories.

Defamation law in the UK is notoriously favourable to the plaintiff. I believe that Wessely has used it a number of times to silence legit critics and have critical media articles pulled. But it cuts both ways.

I disagree.
It is easy to silence someone if you have a large legal department, and a credible risk that costs may be awarded against them in a legal action that may not materialise.

The primary issue with the claims of 'vexatiousness' and similar to various groups in the slides is that you need to overcome several hurdles.

Firstly - did she believe it to be the truth.
Secondly - were the groups or individuals in question harmed at all by the statements she made to the limited audience in the room.
Thirdly - was it the truth.

Some of the claims could in principle be justified by unpublished attacks.

I question if any people could sanely claim that her remarks to the people in the room personally affected them or their group in a significant way.

The vast majority of those that are aware of this controversy will already be aware of the players, and most people at the conference will not be treating directly or indirectly patients.

The majority of people claiming libel is 'easy' in the UK are those who are facing claims of libel from well funded groups or individuals, or those worrying they might be.
A newspaper claiming 'libel is too easy in the UK' because they are scared of large costs in defending such actions has essentially no relevance to actions by individuals or small poorly funded groups against someone making unpublished statements to a small audience.
 
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trishrhymes

Senior Member
Messages
2,158
Hi

I am not a member of BRS. I don't think there is any formal membership as far as I know. I do not know any specific persons to contact in BRS regarding this other than whatever is there on their website. I am not related to BRS organisation in anyway. Sorry.

Thank you @Nephrofan for clarifying this.

I note that at the conference there was also a talk on exercise therapy for chronic kidney disease sufferers. On a quick perusal of a paper someone flagged on this issue, I notice that one of the predisposing factors for kidney disease is listed as lack of exercise, and that you were told about the use of exercise therapy as treatment.

Given that aerobic exercise is contraindicated in ME, and many of us have been housebound or bedbound for years, it seems likely that you will come across ME sufferers among your kidney patients. That being the case, I am pleased that you are willing to inform yourself more about ME, so when you do come across ME patients you will be aware of the problem with advising exercise for ME patients, and understand the difficulties this presents.

We are so often confronted with doctors in other specialisms who do not understand ME and dismiss us as malingerers and/or give inappropriate advice to exercise. It will be good to have one more doctor who is well informed. Thank you for taking the trouble to educate yourself about ME.

Trish
 

Esther12

Senior Member
Messages
13,774
I was just writing to be critical of @Nephrofan after his first post, and to me it looked like his claim to be blocking only people on twitter for abuse was BS, but I've instantly got much more respect for anyone who will actually engage in a discussion, respond to points being made, etc. So instead: 'welcome'.

Even for those with no interest in ME/CFS, I do think that some of the controversies in this area are likely to be of interest to anyone who cares about British medical research and the way patients are treated, as they are related to wider problems. Understanding this does require some understanding of the specifics and details though.
 
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9
Thank you @Nephrofan for clarifying this.

I note that at the conference there was also a talk on exercise therapy for chronic kidney disease sufferers. On a quick perusal of a paper someone flagged on this issue, I notice that one of the predisposing factors for kidney disease is listed as lack of exercise, and that you were told about the use of exercise therapy as treatment.

Given that aerobic exercise is contraindicated in ME, and many of us have been housebound or bedbound for years, it seems likely that you will come across ME sufferers among your kidney patients. That being the case, I am pleased that you are willing to inform yourself more about ME, so when you do come across ME patients you will be aware of the problem with advising exercise for ME patients, and understand the difficulties this presents.

We are so often confronted with doctors in other specialisms who do not understand ME and dismiss us as malingerers and/or give inappropriate advice to exercise. It will be good to have one more doctor who is well informed. Thank you for taking the trouble to educate yourself about ME.

Trish

Hi Trish

Whether or not I will be managing someone with ME, rest assured one thing I won't be doing is labelling them as malingerers. Thanks for all the info.

On a lighter note, I got a trophy here 'I like it a lot'! Thanks.
 

Snowdrop

Rebel without a biscuit
Messages
2,933
@Nephrofan

Thank you for coming forward to clarify the background for the tweets.
Simply put Dr Crawley uses the criteria of chronic fatigue (the symptom) to study a disease that is not about merely being chronically fatigued.
The label itself was a political move away from ME because testing failed to produce anything.

New technologies and new research techniques are yielding results based on a more stringent criteria (one not acknowledged in the UK where the psychiatrists have a strong lobby to hold onto MUS)

There have been interesting results such as:

Stanford:
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/37/E5472.full
Explained here: http://www.meaction.net/2016/08/30/naviauxs-metabolism-paper-is-about-as-big-as-you-think/

Columbia:
https://www.mailman.columbia.edu/pu...-evidence-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-biological

Cornell:
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2016/06/indicator-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-found-gut-bacteria

Also, it might be interesting to note that the PACE trial UK which has done so much damage to patients was the first and only research study to be funded (in part) by the DWP

http://informationrights.decisions.tribunals.gov.uk//DBFiles/Decision/i1854/Queen Mary University of London EA-2015-0269 (12-8-16).PDF
https://valerieeliotsmith.com/2016/...f-pace-trial-data-qmul-v-the-ic-and-matthees/

It required the ruling of a second tier tribunal to get QMUL to release their data. They spent £250,000 defending against doing so despite their publication in the Lancet.

I hope this helps clear up a few things about us vexatious ME sufferers.

ETA:
You have my apologies for any spleen I may have vented on you in this thread. Chronic illness is no picnic.
 
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Yogi

Senior Member
Messages
1,132
I have had a good long chat with @Nephrofan. He is a very nice doctor. He pays his own money to attend this conference for his knowledge and training and had no idea that she was presenting and does not know EC.

I see that his posts have now been approved for all to see. I think these posts speak for themselves. He has apologised profusely for tweeting the photos of EC's slides. In fact I thank you @Nephrofan for doing so otherwise we would not have been aware of the smear and abuse PR campaign that EC is now undertaking in the UK in front of the UK medical profession at our expense.

He does not know EC and was not tweeting on her behalf and is not related professionally or personally. He is not involved in the organising of the conference or the BRS.

Regarding abuse: He is used to getting mainly tweets regarding his professional activities and was surprised at the level of attention on twitter and referred to it as abuse and blocked people. I blame EC for this as her false abuse death threat narrative will have a big effect on conference attendees as can be seen here. However he accepts it was not abuse and has unblocked @Keith Geraghty and Dr Coyne.

He said that EC did not go into detail about the trials. This appears to be her modus operandi by not going into detail and relying using innuendo and smears and propaganda (like a certain SW).

He wishes us all well in our fight for our rights and has been provided links to the PACE trial (which EC said was “a great, great study.” and will be repeating the PACE trial for children ) and has promised to look into it further in detail.

He was taken aback by the attention and just wants credible honest information (like all of use here but misled by EC) but is a good doctor who is happy to engage and very respectful.

Thanks for coming onto the forums and explaining Dr Sridharan!!
 
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TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
Can somebody please give me a slap if the following sounds a bit far-fetched? Thanks.

I can only guess that EC was invited to speak at BRS2017 because of her involvement in research that uses exercise therapy to treat fatigue. This also seems to be gaining popularity in CKD too - and may well benefit patients.

The more I think about this, the more I think you may well have banged the nail right on the head. We started this thread wondering what on earth Crawley was doing at the BRS2017, but it's starting to look rather obvious.

Even she might have an inkling that the PACE gravy train might not last until the end of her career. If she’s looking for somewhere to expand into, where’s she going to go?

Seeing as she considers herself a fatigue expert, the obvious next step is to target illnesses which have fatigue as a symptom. Fatigue is kind of her thing – even though it isn’t the main symptom of our illness she has made ME all about fatigue with re-naming, re-branding, new acronyms, using dodgy diagnostic criteria to cast her net as wide as possible etc etc.

She also knows that the government, the NHS, and insurance companies have been very receptive to money-saving psychs in the past. The one thing the NHS needs to do now is save money, everyone knows that. She also knows that doctors have been very happy to hand over responsibility for / deny our illness rather than face the uncomfortable fact that they have nothing to offer.

Of course she can’t reclassify kidney disease as psychological, but she can set herself up as the expert for that part of it which is “fatigue”. The doctors can manage the dialysis and transplants and that’s all biological and well and good. But this fatigue part, where doctors may feel a bit out of their depth and relieved to be able to hand it on to an expert ….

The patient is officially “cured” (PACE / BPS definition – meaning we think they should be able to stand up and walk around now that they’ve had their operation / dialysis) – any lingering fatigue is psychological, due to false illness beliefs following an assault on the body (we’ve seen it all before– with ME patients it was a virus). Graded Exercise Therapy and CBT is what they need. I’m an expert.

The “cured” patient becomes responsible for any lingering fatigue following treatment, and if they don’t stand in a circle and chant, they can be classified with pervasive refusal syndrome (or whatever she’s calling it now, or plans to call it in the future) so now they can be denied benefits sorry enabled to get back to work, or if they have a job fired for not getting with the program.

Everybody wins by saving money or washing their hands of that awkward difficult to deal with fatigue bit. Everyone gets to pat themselves on the back for curing the patient, and any residual symptoms are classified as the patients’ fault.

This model can be applied to many different illnesses, with cancer obviously being the jackpot for EC. I wouldn’t be surprised to see her popping up all over the place soon – anywhere where patients are “fatigued”, redefining “cure” and “fatigue”, saving money for all concerned (apart from the millions she gets for her "studies", of course), psychologising everything she can and pushing GET, CBT and the Lightning Process.

Of course part of her service will be to forewarn her clients of possible challenges ahead, such as the increasing number of angry patients who don’t like being thrown under a bus while everyone saves money and her career goes from strength to strength.